Tim's very late opinions on X3AP

[Timsup2nothin]

So, now that Reunion is winding up and X4 has been announced I'm finally playing AP. I know that I'm not going to reveal anything startling, but sometimes my opinions amuse people other than myself (they almost always amuse me) so here we go. Obviously, this thread may contain spoilers. I would appreciate it if you old veterans don't go out of your way to spoil anything for me.

So...

I just finished the first plot. Some of you already know this is a 'damn the firestorm torpedoes, full speed ahead on this plot business' play through. It's my second start. The first one I played one of the Argon Prime starts, ignored the call to the plot, and basically made the game almost indistinguishable from the way I usually play TC. Even I realized I was missing the point.

Now I have some genuine observations.

This war business, from my usual trader's view, is a pain in the drain. But, even though one of my favorite regions for economic exploitation is ruined, it's worth while. I never really liked Terrans, but Terran space is such a huge gateless wasteland I usually couldn't be bothered killing them. Having them always making themselves available for slaughtering is a plus.

It has really cut into my usual income. Being allied with the Paranid is challenging. Normally by now I would have accumulated so many busted up Demeters that I could trap any ware I wanted at every source, were I so inclined. And let's face it, I'm usually so inclined. In this game I've actually had to buy every freighter I've got! I don't think I've done that since Reunion.

I enjoyed the plot, and it made it possible to accumulate a pretty descent personal fleet despite the financial hardships. I like having an M6 and they gave me one pretty early on, which was nice. I'll probably upgrade it at some point, but I've never been really picky about M6s anyway so it will do until something better falls in my lap. The gift of an Adv. Discoverer really got me, since despite all you Kestral fans that's my favorite. And, I haven't tried it out yet but I always keep an M3 on my personal TM and this thing they gave me at the end of the plot looks like a total beast.

A little speed loss from my Nova Raider, but holy cow-emperor it looks more like an M6, at least on paper. I just picked up a turbo unit, and I think for post plot celebration I'm gonna go on a slaughterfest in the war zone, just to get a feel for this thing.

Now, the down side. If I ever complained about anything in TC, it was Terran space. The whole "how do we maintain the Terran economy" conversation was lost on me for a long time, because my answer was "why bother?' I considered a quick run through Terran space to get all the sectors on my map and to admire the scenery more than sufficient for most plays...and frequently didn't even do that.

So, since my only complaint was the gateless wasteland of annoyingly huge sectors imagine how excited I was the first time I was sent to Albion and saw the orbital accelerator! They are indestructible, by the way. Not that I would know from personal experience or anything...

And of course the plot calls for repeated trips to the most distant edge of the most distant sector, because...well...I suppose because slowly flying an annoying distance is viewed by some game designer as "challenging." Sigh...

All in all though, I'm pretty happy. I'm looking forward to the next plot call. Yes, I know where to look to figure out how to trigger it, so that wasn't a "please tell me how" moment. I'm pretty sure that in the course of getting a couple personal objectives accomplished it will sort itself out.

I'm off to complete my personal fleet, sub capital section. I also want to finish building my one little investment, which currently lacks an IRE forge. The rest could be built with rental TLs, but that last piece has to wait for my own Elephant to jump it across the jungle. And I need to reveal more map. I'll report back later.

[Simon 24-7]

Why dont you use Hephaeus corp to build? Okay they have a surcharge but that way ,the only thing you have to bring to the party is connection construction kits.

[RAVEN.myst]

Sounds like you're having fun, Tim I, too, am a big fan of the Advanced Disco, have been since X3TC (where you can get 2, but only 1 is needed, of course) - never been a big fan of the Kesterl, personally, it just seem somewhat over the top, as well as being butt-ugly to boot.

Incidentally, now in X3AP playing a true Terran and building up a Terran economy from the start is viable - I won't go into specifics, to avoid spoilers. For the same reason, while I tell you that the Terran gamestarts have their own main plot (which you probably already know), I refrain from any comparisons (except to say that I enjoy both.)

Good hunting

[hisazul]

I don't get how people dislike terrans post AP. They basically proven how justifiable their xenophobia is and how utterly scumbagy people can be. Kill millions in terorrist bombing just to force terrans into war with multiple races with idea they will definitely lose and we can have all their advanced tech to ourselves. War which argon couldn't even win... with help from other races... pathetic trash. Unless... you hate ships/space and not story portion of em?

On side note or I guess on topic note? I find terrans fix their own economy just fine... people say they have no food... yet my long saves always say otherwise. Ah well... I can force almost every race to come to any corner of the universe to feed on my "superplex dump" inside terran teritory after gate alignment... but terrans don't really need much. Sure they buy some stuff to top off forges but other then that... yaki eat more of my stuff then terrans

[Timsup2nothin]

Why dont you use Hephaeus corp to build? Okay they have a surcharge but that way ,the only thing you have to bring to the party is connection construction kits.

Well, one reason would be that I haven't the faintest idea what you are talking about. Clearly research is called for.

That said, I have successfully acquired the Elephant...just in time since some new plot started up and the first mission was a station build...and completed my project.

Raven.myst...I could live with butt ugly, since I seldom have to see it from outside, but my opinion of the Kestrel always stumbles over "fast as a bullet and just as maneuverable." I need enough speed, but I need enough steering too.

Terran philosophy: "Unleashed a plague upon the universe? Oh well, as long as we can blow up this gate so it can't get back to us no harm done." That just never sat well with me.
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So, in my further adventures...the new feature AP tour of the universe missions are a hoot. I knew I wanted to explore and reveal map, and along comes a tour guide with a bunch of cash. What could go wrong?

Well, based on experiences from my previous play, everything, but I really thought I had it covered. My Express isn't fast, but I had a turbo unit. I loaded up with cells and had a standby source on the Magnatar so I could refuel along the way if I needed to. And it isn't like the entire eight sector tour would be outside the fairly substantial confines I already have mapped, right?

Okay, that was my first mistake. First stop, a Paranid shipyard. Get as close as I can, then it's fly through the yellow gate, click the next yellow gate and jump to it, rinse and repeat. Good news, every sector I'm crossing is ringing up bonus creds. Better news, the Paranids won't let me dock at their shipyard so the tourists can't wander off.

Since the first stop was just a fly by I'm ahead on time...but the second stop is also off my previously beaten path. Hmmm. So is the third, and I'm almost there before I realize that I could have jumped back to my already mapped territory and gotten there in three sector crossings instead of eight. Okay, now I'm not ahead on time. Bonus is looking good though, and we have to get back to mapped territory somewhere along the line, right?

If I could get just ONE that I could jump right to...yeah, that's not happening. But I do catch a break because just as I'm thinking I need to jump in the refueling the tourists want to see a solar power plant of all things. I have plenty of time to make the purchase since at EVERY stop these {deleted} just wander back to the ship drunk and disorganized like we have all the time in the world.

But as we pull into the seventh stop I'm thinking we might just make it. If the eighth stop isn't off the track too far...and maybe we can get back to some sort of fly by in Paranid space....right?

Of course not.

It's a fly by all right.

A shipyard. A XENON shipyard.

These buffoons want to fly up to a Xenon shipyard so they can stare out the portholes at it while the alphabet soup gang cuts us to ribbons.

Well, [deleted].

With all the bonus sectors accumulated the total payoff is now well over a million credits. Just what the pilot about to buy a TL was looking for. MAYBE, just maybe...well, the Xenon could have just started migrating out one gate and I can come in the other gate and give them the quick peek, maybe. Or something.

Yeah, that's not happening. I kissed my million credits goodby, launched the whole gang of them out the [deleted] airlock and jumped on out of there.

Tour of a lifetime? Got that right. They'll never have an experience like that again. I hope they're all [deleted] cyborgs polishing Xenon exhaust ports with toothbrushes.

[RAVEN.myst]

I had a good laugh at that lot (especially your hopes for your erstwhile passengers' future - hahahha) - well, yes, at your misfortunes, I suppose... but I'm laughing NEXT TO you, not AT you
Incidentally, when the meanderthals are taking their time getting back aboard your liner, you can comm their leader and tell him to get them to get a move on. I don't know whether that in any way impacts the payoff, or such - I haven't noticed any side-effects.

Why dont you use Hephaeus corp to build? Okay they have a surcharge but that way ,the only thing you have to bring to the party is connection construction kits.

Well, one reason would be that I haven't the faintest idea what you are talking about. Clearly research is called for.

Haephasto building corporation (or something along those lines) is a little extra that comes with the X3AP Bonus Pack - in short, it allows you to place an order for a bunch of stations and designate a location, and this subcontractor comes and drops off the stations there, lining them up adequately (not great if you are an artistic perfectionist, but functional; some Terran stations end up overlapping, though, so once in-sector, best get those tubes in place quickly so they don't demolish each other.) I resisted using it for a long time, but eventually the tedium of large plex placement got too much, so then I started using their services - and with an extra surcharge payable, it's fair enough. Can't be used for completing station build missions.

Raven.myst...I could live with butt ugly, since I seldom have to see it from outside, but my opinion of the Kestrel always stumbles over "fast as a bullet and just as maneuverable."

Yeah, I hear you - that's also one of my reasons for avoiding them - they go so very very well in a straight line, but I find that a "tad" restrictive

I find terrans fix their own economy just fine... people say they have no food... yet my long saves always say otherwise.

In the early game, the food shortage that I consistently witness is great is I'm playing Terran, as it provides an industrial opportunity. If I'm playing as a CW member, then I don't see it, not do I care And yes, the Terran economy in AP is MUCH more robust - largely due to the fact that ES recognised that each of their stations is so significant a part of the puzzle, that Terran stations seem all but immune to the vanishing touch of GoD - in AP, I've never had a SSC forge, or a SPP, or an EEMPC forge, or anything else, for that matter, disappear on me, so when playing as Terran (which I enjoy so much that it's probably around 40% of my AP games, which is disproportionately high given the number of races) I never find that a crucial supplier or customer has pulled a Houdini on me.

[jlehtone]

yaki eat more of my stuff then terrans

How many Yaki traders are there?

I had an "incident" that involved a Split female and as side-effect I cannot dock to Yaki stations any more, and their Core sectors are a no-go zone to my ships. (I have been a hired "witness" to several Yaki deaths after that, which does not improve the odds.)

Nevertheless, they have products that I'd buy, so I was thinking of setting up a shop nearby, but their trade-fleet is under the radar or non-existent. If they won't come to buy, spreading love is not possible.

(Early on I had Yaki trade relations, enough to equip one vessel. Unfortunately, my diplomatic survey ship T-800 was recently mistaken as AGI by the Terrans ... )



The war is indeed a source for (almost) free cannon fodder. (Xenon all day long would be too simple a diet.) As downside, the automated traders better not venture there. Luckily, the configuration options of traders in AP allow gesturing that "there are no cheap ECells in Circle of Labour".

[ancienthighway]

The Yaki have no traders, but they will buy weed and booze.

[RAVEN.myst]

If they won't come to buy, spreading love is not possible.

Actually, you can still occasionally come across Yaki ships offering missions (unless, perhaps, your rep is totally rock bottom - but I think that Yaki might even be exempt from that restriction) - they tend to be the sort of mission that makes you persona non grata with other factions, though, of course. Also, are you still able to dock at their shipyard and stock exchange? Those are not in their core sector (Weaver's Tempest is the only Yaki core sector), so possibly you may be able to snag missions in Senator's Badlands...

[jlehtone]

The Yaki have no traders, but they will buy weed and booze.

That diminishes the plan. When Musashi told to "act and react without thinking" his idea clearly was not about building a business that has no market.

A corollary question is obviously, how much the volume and pricing of NPC purchases affects the reputation? (It is much easier to quantify player action's effect -- be it sale or kill.)

Actually, you can still occasionally come across Yaki ships offering missions

Yaki ships are very rare. I would take their missions, should I see them.

Also, are you still able to dock at their shipyard and stock exchange?

No. I think three levels of bad reputation are:

1. You cannot dock
2. You cannot dock and will be hunted in Core
3. You cannot dock and will be hunted both in Core and Borders

There is a discovery though: The player Stations have a Report inbound ships.

Useful? Hmm, I had built before thinking, so there is a Station to test with. Indeed, a ship is inbound. A Paranid Free Trader. Not a Yaki, as I would prefer. Most interestingly, the freighter has order to buy it's hold full at the destination. Over 3000 units. A tiny snippet learned about behaviour of NPC Traders.

My Station doesn't have that much. Hasn't had so far. Might not even have stock room for that much. Okay, the NPC's head for producers with "buy as much as possible" mentality. Someone could micromanage a fortune with that info.


Back in the day I did wish to improve Goner relations. Like Yaki, they were not into trade and worse yet had no enemies to kill. The Yaki hopefully dislike somebody enough to appreciate some mayhem.

If only one could predict ... a Paranid heading to a Station that is in Yaki sector ...

Unlike Tim, I'm happy to keep Paranids my friends. Friends tolerate mishaps. Too bad my gerbils still fail to avoid collisions with smaller ships ...

[Timsup2nothin]

I had a good laugh at that lot (especially your hopes for your erstwhile passengers' future - hahahha) - well, yes, at your misfortunes, I suppose... but I'm laughing NEXT TO you, not AT you
Incidentally, when the meanderthals are taking their time getting back aboard your liner, you can comm their leader and tell him to get them to get a move on. I don't know whether that in any way impacts the payoff, or such - I haven't noticed any side-effects.

DOH!!!!

I'll have to try that! Though on this particular mission, in the long run I don't know that it would have made any difference. I would have needed to have at least a couple of their destinations pre-mapped, and some sort of solution to the Xenon shipyard puzzle.

Why dont you use Hephaeus corp to build? Okay they have a surcharge but that way ,the only thing you have to bring to the party is connection construction kits.

Well, one reason would be that I haven't the faintest idea what you are talking about. Clearly research is called for.

Haephasto building corporation (or something along those lines) is a little extra that comes with the X3AP Bonus Pack - in short, it allows you to place an order for a bunch of stations and designate a location, and this subcontractor comes and drops off the stations there, lining them up adequately (not great if you are an artistic perfectionist, but functional; some Terran stations end up overlapping, though, so once in-sector, best get those tubes in place quickly so they don't demolish each other.) I resisted using it for a long time, but eventually the tedium of large plex placement got too much, so then I started using their services - and with an extra surcharge payable, it's fair enough. Can't be used for completing station build missions.

I have the bonus pack installed. I could look at the documentation, of course. Or I can just ask the forum hive mind...

How do I access these Haephastians? They don't actually sound like my cup of tea, since I usually make acquiring a TL a very early priority and I am that "artistic perfectionist" you mentioned.

Of course being an artistic perfectionist the way I build complexes is a lot less tedious. For my purposes a half dozen stations is on the large side, and my "art" is focused on the overlapping and interlocking of the actual stations since I use no tubes.

[RAVEN.myst]

Accessing it is done via an in-flight hotkey (configurable under... erm, I forget Something to do with extensions? Gameplay? It's near where the CAG Admin, CLS Admin, Turbo Boost, etc are mapped, iIrc - can't check right now as I'm deeply engrossed in EVE atm and am under the gun on a timed mission - sorry.) I can understand how they may or may not suit you - like I said, I demurred for quite some time, but eventually gave in when I got sick of the lining up on large complexes - essentially, it was a matter of late-game laziness and way too many credits on hand, so I didn't feel like setting up several dozen stations by hand, waiting for my TL to to-and-fro it ad nauseam (and I was using a Mammoth in that game, tied for largest capacity.) I still hand-craft the smaller complexes, though, especially in the early game - I, too, like to make them seem to interlink in an aesthetically pleasing manner, and take considerable pride in some of the arrangements I've come up with.

[hisazul]

Cycrow did the whole mod configuration hotkeys thing and it was integrated into AP. So there is a hotkey for mod configurations and hotkeys for mods themselves. But yeah hephastus can only be called with that hotkey as far as I know.

Configuration hotkey also lets you change thresholds and priority for boost energy use. I don't think TC had that. So you can use weapon energy first for boosting instead of draining all your shields. Think what I have is something like 1.weapon 25%, 2.shield 50%, 3.energy cells 50%, 4.space flies.

I do agree pretty much that hephastus is the only sane way to build large plexes. Otherwise it is tedious as we all know.

@Raven I also never see economy as broken. I just see the place for the player. If it worked... then what the hell would a player even have to contribute to economy. Been playing terran only since TC let you do it No gates? Sure in TC... in AP core of terran space has so many beacons, they are random sadly but the sheer amount ensures that majority of core is jump friendly. Does it prevent AI trading? Sure... But non-terrans are not going to go there to begin with... and player CAGs/CLS2(or was that universe traders... ughh) can use beacons so... the point is moot at best.

[Timsup2nothin]

This is ScorpCorp ScoutFitters. The mining operation is on the opposite side of the asteroid. It's pretty mundane over there.
[ external image ]

This is the base facility, where it is anchored to the asteroid. That structure in the center is a big conveyor, connected to the far side where the mining is happening.
[ external image ]

The upper section of the base has this big refining module. Again you get the conveyor that goes all the way down into the asteroid.
[ external image ]

Distribution core, connecting the refining module at the left edge of the picture to various manufacturing modules.
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Obviously, the docking module. The big tower of spheres there serves as the power plant, processing the incoming e-cells.
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Full picture from the power plant side.
[ external image ]

Once I discovered the tubeless complex mod my imagination ran amok. But I enjoy the game immensely.

[RAVEN.myst]

@hisazul: Sadly, CAG and CLS are the ones that can't use them jump beacons (UTs/STs can, though). Nevertheless, that doesn't stop me - it's just a matter of using more freighters, and the Baldrics are nice and quick, at least (sure, they're not Mistrals, but no freighters other than Mistrals are Mistrals - ermmm... pardon the circular logic ) Also, keeping the trade ranges short helps, and since Inner Sol and Outer Sol are separate economic entities thanks to the war zone separating them, that's not only easy to do, but in fact quite natural... (and ExoSol regions get partial use of jumps too, which help s a bit.)

As you say, the economy is never broken, it's merely rife with opportunities for the player I often find a serious gap in Teladi food supply, especially around PTNIHQ, Profit Centre Alpha, and that area, as there's a Xenon sector separating the Teladi food factories from their farms, which in the early game can be quite useful for a player with a jumpdrive. I'm sure you've found numerous other examples of such holes to be filled. I think it's the players who don't involve themselves in infrastructure, but only do battle, that struggle the most with the recessionary economy - it's harder for them to equip their ships (well, until their fight rank rises to the point that ships they kill are constantly dropping guns.)

[Timsup2nothin]

I adapted to Terran space and have no complaint about opportunities there when I play as a Terran, which so far I haven't done in AP. In fact my trapping process was really developed as a solution to Terran space because transit times between stations demanded it. I remember Tall Glass Ice and Water Company quite fondly.

But games I've played "as a Terran" have mostly involved setting up an economic engine in Terran space that could run unattended so I could leave. When I play as other than Terran I usually don't go in there at all, or at most I take a quick mapping tour in a really fast ship. I may have already spent more time this game blowing up stuff in Asteroid Belt than I normally spend in Terran Space all together.

[jlehtone]

I think it's the players who don't involve themselves in infrastructure, but only do battle, that struggle the most with the recessionary economy - it's harder for them to equip their ships

Indeed. Guiding a MORT through the galaxy just to be able to do half of a missile barrage is a different challenge than "aesthetic station placement".


@Tim: Nice, but all shots are so close that it is hard to see the "overall picture".

[RAVEN.myst]

I remember Tall Glass Ice and Water Company quite fondly.

Hahaha - yes, I also found the water business to be really good, especially from Uranus outwards - almost everyone wants it, a few as a primary resource, and many as secondary.

Some nice creations there I noticed that you've also gotten the hang of (or perhaps, in your case, "mastered" may be more accurate) getting the docking hub onto the 'plex itself (a matter of building almost backwards, hehehe)

[Triaxx2]

CAG/CLS can use jump beacons, just not the vanilla ones. You'd have to have the ones from their mod dev and so yeah. Still that's largely unnecessary anyway. I only use TL's to move cargo in Terran Space, no matter the game. Otherwise you're not moving quantities enough to justify the effort.

[Timsup2nothin]

@Tim: Nice, but all shots are so close that it is hard to see the "overall picture".

I thought the first one and the last one were pretty "full picture." When I get far enough away to see the mining apparatus on the far side of the asteroid everything gets really small.

@Raven...yeah, there is serious planning ahead required to attach the docking hub. Sometimes I'm happy with considering the docking hub to include industrial grade transporter devices. This one did work out well though.