[Bug] Will there be a fix for obviously bugged missions in X3TC v3.3 after Beta ends?

[sizeofbool]

Almost all timed missions are next to impossible to finish in time. Is this a bug since the game release? Is this flawed by design?

"Return Ship - Average difficulty" mission requires to return super-slow damaged ship to owner. Common sense suggests that if owner wants it that much he could wait for it for a 10-15 minutes more. Why is there a time limit anyway?
I know, I can repair damaged ship and install SETA to it and fly manually without auto-pilot and still its impossible to make it in time.

"Kill criminal - Average-Hard difficulty" mission requires you to fly to a possibly not discovered yet sector and fight with bunch of ships. Some fights require tactics and could take some time to be completed successfully. Why is there a time limit anyway? Common sense suggests that if quest giver wants that criminal dead and hires a bounty-hunter to kill him, then he willing to wait for it. Now it looks like "Go kill dangerous criminal with his escort in 15 minutes, before I finish my coffee." Absurd.

I really hate how timed missions work. This makes the only playable missions in the game are "Station defence" and "Sector patrol".

Also I know you can complete timed missions with jump-drive, but at the beginning when your pilot isn't gained any money and reputation these missions are next to impossible to complete.
And at time when I get jump-drive I can't see myself doing these missions, because I will use more profitable ways to make money.

[X2-Illuminatus]

What you describe is not a bug, but simply how the game was designed. Just as you can meet ships in space early in the game, against which you stand no chance in a fight, there are also missions which cannot be completed in the given timeframe or with your current equipment. It is your job to decide, if a mission can be completed, based on your experience with previous missions, on your installed equipment and on the the information provided by the mission offerer.

[sizeofbool]

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It is your job to decide, if a mission can be completed, based on your experience with previous missions, on your installed equipment and on the the information provided by the mission offerer.

Well then this is obviously a design flaw. Considering how little to none information about mission is given. There is no information about what sector I have to fly, what class ships I will encounter on bounty-hunter mission, etc.
There is no way to calculate distance and time it will take to fly between current station and another in another sector in "taxi" missions and other timed missions alike. List could go on and on.
Some mission briefings will clearly tell me if I suit to the job ("taxi" mission for transport class ship), but wast majority of them are complete mystery before you click "I agree."
All this feels flawed cheap and unfair, also requires reload after you accepted mission only to learn it's details.

Also I've noticed that after mission was spawned it's "time required to complete" timer will decrease even if you didn't took that mission. This leads to situations like these where mission with doable schedule at it spawn time becomes unplayable after some time passed before mission was noticed and reviewed.

As I said before, this makes the only playable missions in the game are "Station defence" and "Sector patrol". Your suggestion about Jump-Drive is not an option for a player at early stages of the game.
And once I get my hands on Jump-Drive then there will be little incentive to do missions, because there will be far more profitable ways to make money.

[Alan Phipps]

Perhaps you should consider one of mods that increases mission briefing content then, but also be aware that many players quite like the time challenges of these missions and come up with some quite inventive ways of successfully achieving them in vanilla. There are many hint threads about return ship missions for example.

Sure, they are more difficult in early game but then you would soon learn what types and difficulties to take or not.

Moving from Tech Sp to Trilogy Universe.

[RAVEN.myst]

Fight, Trade, Build, and.... Think. This last actually applies to many of the other activities within the game. Thus, with a bit of creative thinking, one can usually come up with a solution to seemingly "impossible" problems, depending on one's resources (ie. don't expect to be able to do everything right off the bat, you have to grow into your capabilities.)

Here's an example specifically for "impossible" ship recovery missions (which, incidentally, some players use extensively in the early game as a decent money-maker) - get the mission, if you have a satellite in the target sector then find the ship and pick nearest gate to jump into in your TM-class ship (if not, pick the gate that is most likely to give the shortest distance ie. the most centrally placed, usually - if this still fails upon arrival and target it too far away, then do an in-sector jump to nearest gate.) Approach in your TM, stop, claim the ship, dock it in your TM (if you happen to have Docking Computer, so much the better, as it will allow you to "teleport dock", saving time), then jump back to gate nearest the client's location.

Yes, I understand that the above is contingent on having a TM with a jumpdrive (and, ideally but optionally, Docking Computer), but it's simply an example of how you might approach something like this. Remember that the very first "return abandoned ship" missions will *usually* involve low-end ships - as such, there's a good chance you may be able to patch them up quickly to grant them a vast improvement in speed. Also, being in a M5-class ship when taking those is very advantageous, as you will get to the destination so much faster.

Assassination/bounty hunting timed missions have their own specific approaches. For starters, once again when it comes to the earliest ones, you had best be in a fast, light ship. Also, those earliest ones will always be against M5s, so you need to be able to arrive and swat them fast - here is where weapon choices play a huge role: you can opt for Wasp or Hurricane or Disruptor missiles (particularly if you've managed to loot some along the way). [EDIT: Alternatively, you can fit a couple of Mass Drivers and some ammo, to shoot those peskies easily - but this costs some credits that you may not yet have.] Also, you need to be quick getting there (ie. unerring navigation skills are crucial - practice those), and admittedly somewhat lucky - those small gnats tend to get swatted by local if they are in trafficked areas - not much you can do about this but shrug and move on (at least you don't lose rep, unlike with messed up "return ship" missions.)

Cargo and passenger transport missions also require that your speed be maxed (this is something you should be doing by default - a ship is not complete until its engine has been maxed out.) In some extreme cases, "double strafing" helps to get the extra speed to make a deadline - this involves adding your lateral thrusters' vectors to your overall travel vector, and results in "lopsided flight" where your destination is somewhere near the corner of your screen (in normal circumstances, this means no SETA.) Also important for those transport missions is not to rely on autopilot docking, which is very inefficient (it comes in excessively slowly and tends to take an exaggeratedly roundabout "safe" route), but dock manually - better yet, get a Docking Computer for insta-docking within range (this is not even optional for the harder timed transport missions.)

Are there occasionally truly impossible time-limited missions? Yes, but they are a lot more rare than you seem to think. By far and away the majority of missions with time-limits are doable with the correct approach, which may include expertise and the right tools for the job.

(Personally, I've very seldom cursed the time limits - then again, I am something of a masochist when it comes to seeking play challenges.)

PS: None of what you have described is, as far as I can tell, anything even remotely resembling bugs (even the absolutely ridiculous-seeming wares transport missions that ask for insane amounts of a ware can be done, in the right circumstances - such as having a personal trade hub stocked up with the goods in question, and the freighter/s to quickly deliver them with.)

[sizeofbool]

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Sure, they are more difficult in early game but then you would soon learn what types and difficulties to take or not.

They are not difficult. They are unplayable starting from Average difficulty.
So the only way to play early on is to look for "Station Protection - average-hard-very hard" mission and skip all the rest. Because why bother.
If the game ramps up the combat difficulty as player's rating goes up, why game doesn't do the same with civilian missions?

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Moving from Tech Sp to Trilogy Universe.

This post was a feedback for ongoing X3TC v3.3 beta. Also suggestions for QA team.
You can move it wherever you like. Denying bugs\design flaws like these won't make upcoming X4 a good game.

[sizeofbool]

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but it's simply an example of how you might approach something like this.

I'm quite aware about Jump-Drive way thank you. May I remind you I'm talking about early game. When all you have is M4 and fast M5. No satellites, no all-mapped sectors, no nothing.

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Remember that the very first "return abandoned ship" missions will *usually* involve low-end ships - as such, there's a good chance you may be able to patch them up quickly to grant them a vast improvement in speed. Also, being in a M5-class ship when taking those is very advantageous, as you will get to the destination so much faster.

Getting to it is not a problem in my fully upgraded M5 Rapier. The problem is to get that slow ship back to its owner, when it is without shields, without SETA, with stock engine. Repairing it in space doesn't help much because mission fails even if you already in the docking process to final space station. Literally 1 minute past the schedule and owner can't wait a little longer for player to dock at the station. This breaks immersion and feels stupid.

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Assassination/bounty hunting timed missions...

It's not about combat difficulty, it's about timer. Slow M3 just can't get there fast enough to have time for a fight, especially if this fight should be long (against M6 or M7 with few M3 M4 escorts).
I fly on missions manually only. I can't afford to waste time on weird auto-pilot behaviour.
Once again it feels weird when you have been told to hunt down dangerous criminals in 15 minutes. Imagine if in real life criminals could get away like this. 15 minutes past == not guilty or criminal any more. This also breaks immersion.

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Cargo and passenger transport missions also require that your speed be maxed (this is something you should be doing by default - a ship is not complete until its engine has been maxed out.) In some extreme cases, "double strafing" helps to get the extra speed to make a deadline - this involves adding your later thrusters' vectors to your overall travel vector, and results in "lopsided flight" where your destination is somewhere near the corner of your screen (in normal circumstances, this means no SETA.) Also important for those transport missions is not to rely on autopilot docking, which is very inefficient (it comes in excessively slowly and tends to take an exaggeratedly roundabout "safe" route), but dock manually - better yet, get a Docking Computer for insta-docking within range (this is not even optional for the harder timed transport missions.)

Interesting, I thought I have Docking Computer already to dock with stations with auto-pilot. Never bought it for same reason.
Is "double strafing" really gives more speed to your ship, or it is just a way to cut corners? I do that occasionally when dock manually or adjust flying vector to a jump gate.

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Are there occasionally truly impossible time-limited missions? Yes, but they are a lot more rare than you seem to think. By far and away the majority of missions with time-limits are doable with the correct approach, which may include expertise and the right tools for the job.

Here we came to a conclusion. Why bother with seemingly impossible missions early in the game, when they cost player so much effort and time with huge probability of failing, when you can just do "simple" Station Defence and Sector Patrol missions? They also paid significantly better and allows to sell salvaged missiles after combat for additional profit.
Isn't this a very definition of "flawed by design"?

[ancienthighway]

RAVEN.myst gave you a lot of tips for completing a number of missions. They are worth reading and trying in game.

As time is a factor in all of the missions, it's important to have a fast ship, cargo life support (CLS), transporter device and a jump drive. The Argon Discoverer is ideal for this. The Hauler variant is even better. Max out the cargo space and speed. Add steering to what works best for you.

After a few missions and you have enough credits, buy a TM. Max out it's upgrades, add a jump drive, transporter device and CLS. Recovering those broken transports become simple. Dock you Disco on the TM, jump the TM to the destination sector, then get in the Disco with some energy, claim the ship, transfer jump drive and energy, jump the claimed ship to the return sector, dock on your TM and follow the claimed ship. Eject jump drive and any remaining energy cells for you do recover with the Disco. (Side note: You can dock any ship you are recovering at any station. Once time expires, the ship is still your ship, but an M5 or two will come looking for it to blow it up. Leave it parked until those M5s crash into the station or give up. Keep the ship or sell it and get much more cash than the reward was.) (Another side note: Recovering stolen fighters and transports are basically impossible to complete. It requires enough damage on the ship to force the pilot to bail, but they tend to end with the ship being destroyed.)

On the Assassination missions, you only have to kill the target. Any escort can be left alone. In fact I've found the escort frequently leaves you alone, especially after their employer is no longer available to pay them.

Yes, there are offers for impossible to complete missions. With experience you can decide if you can complete the mission within the allotted time. But 90%-95% of the missions are easily completed within the allotted time if you have the right equipment for the mission.

[RAVEN.myst]

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but it's simply an example of how you might approach something like this.

I'm quite aware about Jump-Drive way thank you. May I remind you I'm talking about early game. When all you have is M4 and fast M5. No satellites, no all-mapped sectors, no nothing.

Yes, I'm quite aware that you are quite aware - in my post, I POINTED OUT that I was, and that I was merely providing an example of way of thinking and approaching the problem in general terms (that's the very bit that you quoted, in fact!) - some will apply to some situations, some to others, some to many, some only to a few - "teach a man to fish", as it were.

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Remember that the very first "return abandoned ship" missions will *usually* involve low-end ships - as such, there's a good chance you may be able to patch them up quickly to grant them a vast improvement in speed. Also, being in a M5-class ship when taking those is very advantageous, as you will get to the destination so much faster.

Getting to it is not a problem in my fully upgraded M5 Rapier. The problem is to get that slow ship back to its owner, when it is without shields, without SETA, with stock engine. Repairing it in space doesn't help much because mission fails even if you already in the docking process to final space station. Literally 1 minute past the schedule and owner can't wait a little longer for player to dock at the station. This breaks immersion and feels stupid.

Well, I'm not alone among those who have completed many of those missions in the early game. If I were like some people I've seen on other forums, I might urge you to "L2P".
I do agree on the absolute time-limit with no grace - in "real life" if you are 1 minute late with something, you can usually get away with it, heheh. However, on a computer, that sort of human flexibility is extremely hard to implement without making it abusable and predictable - say, if a comms option were added "I'm running slightly late, but I'm almost there - just wait for me", then you would find that it would simply be a dependable extension to the time limit - and then you're again back to a hard cap to time.
Oh, here's a potentially helpful tip: when you are returning the ship, stay out the destination sector - the ship will dock more quickly, as it won't have to manoeuvre into dock - it will simply fly to the station icon and that will register as "arrived" - that will avoid many of the "in the last minute" situations.

...Assassination/bounty hunting timed missions...

It's not about combat difficulty, it's about timer.

So who said anything about combat difficulty? Not me - I know, I just went back and checked!

Slow M3 just can't get there fast enough to have time for a fight, especially if this fight should be long (against M6 or M7 with few M3 M4 escorts).

Two issues there:
1. If you are at the point of fighting M6s and M7s and can't afford a jumpdrive, you're doing it wrong.
2. If you are taking on M7s in a M3, the most people will agree that, again, you're doing it wrong - and certainly you will struggle to apply enough damage within the time limit while keeping yourself alive! In general, unless you are a masochist or out to prove some macho hot-shotness (or both), taking on a ship that's more than one class above yours is not viable - so, M3 vs M6 is fine, but M3 vs M7 is not. I'm not saying it's not doable, but you have to be very experienced, very good, and it WILL take time! (More time than a mission grants you, usually.)

I fly on missions manually only. I can't afford to waste time on weird auto-pilot behaviour.

Good.

Once again it feels weird when you have been told to hunt down dangerous criminals in 15 minutes. Imagine if in real life criminals could get away like this. 15 minutes past == not guilty or criminal any more. This also breaks immersion.

Well, yes and no. Consider this: the criminal GETS AWAY if not caught fast enough (hey, you ever heard how police sometimes talk about "if you haven't caught the perp in the first 24hrs/48hrs, it gets much harder to do so"?) Many man-hunts (please understand, I'm NOT saying ALL, I'm saying "many"!) are races against time: if authorities aren't able to set up an iron-clad impenetrable perimeter immediately, then the more time that passes, the better the fugitive's chances.

...stuff...

Interesting, I thought I have Docking Computer already to dock with stations with auto-pilot. Never bought it for same reason.
Is "double strafing" really gives more speed to your ship, or it is just a way to cut corners? I do that occasionally when dock manually or adjust flying vector to a jump gate.

No, the autopilot and the docking computer fulfil different functions - as a simple rule, if it isn't in your freight list, then you don't have it (and since the Dock Comp doesn't appear in your freight list...) Do yourself a favour, get one, available from:

Spoiler

Show

OTAS HQ in Legend's Home, and most or all Paranid equipment docks.

Regarding the double strafe, it most certainly works, and the slower your ship, the larger the relative gain (the gain is fixed, so it's most significant with slower ships.) Picture it like this: say that if you are moving forward at the speed of lat-thrusters, and then you apply lat-thrusters - then your overall vector is 1 forward and 1 sideways, which works out to around 1.4 total (can be visualised as diagonal of a square.) If you then apply another vector vertically, you end up with something like 1.4 x 1.4, whatever that works out to. Now, your normal forward speed is generally a LOT higher than lateral, but still provides a significant boost (someone else surely has done the proper math and has the exact numbers) - it's enough, when taking the Lost Lar or the Unholy Traitor start scenarios, for example, to escape most pursuing ships, even though they are considerably faster. In timed transport missions, I've found this to make the difference between success and failure quite often.

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Are there occasionally truly impossible time-limited missions? Yes, but they are a lot more rare than you seem to think. By far and away the majority of missions with time-limits are doable with the correct approach, which may include expertise and the right tools for the job.

Here we came to a conclusion. Why bother with seemingly impossible missions early in the game, when they cost player so much effort and time with huge probability of failing, when you can just do "simple" Station Defence and Sector Patrol missions? They also paid significantly better and allows to sell salvaged missiles after combat for additional profit.
Isn't this a very definition of "flawed by design"?

Here's my conclusion: you've already made up your mind on most points, and appear intent on ignoring most of what was intended as a helpful set of suggestions from me. Personally, I NEVER do station defense missions as I find them boring and unrewarding (except in X3TC when they are part of a corporation mission sequence, in which case I do them because I pretty much have to, or at least because it's advantageous.) Ditto sector patrols missions, and those I find especially tedious, so I don't bother with those. To be honest, I don't do all that many missions in the early game, I generally try to find other, more interesting ways to make money, as I find almost ALL the missions to be too easy, most MUCH too easy (yes, including time-limited ones.) However, there IS possibly a better approach to mission design: it's used in some of EVE's missions, and was sometimes used in X2 and X3R - no time limit, or a generous one, but a substantial bonus if missions completed withing a challenging time constraint (usually, they were not really worth completing without the bonus) - this would make the missions more "scaleable", not as binary black and white.

I'm going to go out on a limb here and surmise that you're fairly new to the game - might I suggest getting to know it better, and getting better at it, before rushing to (mostly incorrect) judgements? But there's one thing you unwittingly got right there: "why bother with..." - and here's the thing: the bit after the "with" varies from person to person. Everyone has his/her preferences in this game, and that's part of the beauty of it - there are elements in it to suit just about everyone. Station defense and sector patrol you gel with in terms of expertise, but I gather that you want to gel with more types - great, then play some more, get to grips, and learn the skills required for other mission types. I don't think there's anyone out there who likes ALL the missions equally, nor is equally good at all of them. I think it's unrealistic to expect that.

The X titles are not for those who are seeking instant gratification - some things WILL be out of your reach in the first few hours (or, in fact, the first few WEEKS, in the case of newcomers to the game.)

Good hunting - I do wish you the best of luck (but you'll also need an open mind!)


EDIT: PS: There's some very handy "how-to" info from ancienthighway there - please consider reading it, thinking about it, and trying it, before dismissing it out of hand or contradicting it

[sizeofbool]

RAVEN.myst gave you a lot of tips for completing a number of missions. They are worth reading and trying in game.

Thanks Cap. Both of you forgot about "early game" I am talking about. When I will get my hands on jump drive I won't bother with missions and just trade.
Both of you talking about jump drive, but when jump drive will be available to a player (Terran Campaign)? From my perspective, getting it requires a lot of exploration and completing quest line.

As time is a factor in all of the missions, it's important to have a fast ship, cargo life support (CLS), transporter device and a jump drive. The Argon Discoverer is ideal for this. The Hauler variant is even better. Max out the cargo space and speed. Add steering to what works best for you.

I have fully upgraded Discoverer and all equipment you mentioned except jump drive.
I'm not complete newbie in this game. I've played X-BTF, X-Tension, X2 and a fair share of X3TC, so I know the basics of the game at least.

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After a few missions and you have enough credits, buy a TM. Max out it's upgrades, add a jump drive, transporter device and CLS.

Wow, around a million credits after a few missions? TM (Toukon) costs like 500k + 1x200MJ Shield is 150k + upgrades.
Also tell me when in "early game" you can get your hand on it? You don't have notoriety to fly to sector where it is sold, also you don't have notoriety to buy 200MJ shields and weapons for it.
And also why waste so much money to be able to do 30k missions? Isn't trading is much better if you have such amount of money?

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(Side note: You can dock any ship you are recovering at any station. Once time expires, the ship is still your ship, but an M5 or two will come looking for it to blow it up. Leave it parked until those M5s crash into the station or give up. Keep the ship or sell it and get much more cash than the reward was.)

This is what I call cheating in my book. A few M5s and M4s will spawn nearby to destroy it with missiles at close range as soon as you jump out of jump gate.
Why mission design forces player to fail the mission and accuse him with stealing when it never was in his intentions? Can't a mission giver wait a few minutes till his ship will get to him? Game Developers could add some sort of penalties for delivering past schedule. You know a civilised way to do business that also makes sense.
Your side note seems also like broken mission design, if game allows player to steal a ship then why don't give him a fair fight?
You also loose recognition if you fail a mission.

(Another side note: Recovering stolen fighters and transports are basically impossible to complete. It requires enough damage on the ship to force the pilot to bail, but they tend to end with the ship being destroyed.)

So they are broken?

[RAVEN.myst]

Thanks Cap. Both of you forgot about "early game" I am talking about.

Actually, not so much Once I get to "uber" levels, I get bored and start afresh - I have played the game literally dozens upon dozens of times, which means the early game sees a lot of action Every time, I play as a different race (well, not for quite some time, as I played all the starts many times each, already) and try to try something new in terms of overall game plan.

When I will get my hands on jump drive I won't bother with missions and just trade.
Both of you talking about jump drive, but when jump drive will be available to a player (Terran Campaign)? From my perspective, getting it requires a lot of exploration and completing quest line.

I'm unclear as to whether you are playing TC or AP, I suspect the former, yes? Depending on your race and starting scenario, your proximity will vary. Here are just a couple:

Spoiler

Show

Home of Light - Terracorp HQ
Queens Harbour - Atreus HQ
Elysium of Light - new Goner Temple (AP only - if playing TC, you will actually help to build that temple )
Legend's Home - OTAS HQ
a couple of Terran Military Bases (The Moon, Earth Torus [only after Terran campaign], and a couple of other places maybe, but I forget where)

Wow, around a million credits after a few missions? TM (Toukon) costs like 500k + 1x200MJ Shield is 150k + upgrades.
Also tell me when in "early game" you can get your hand on it? You don't have notoriety to fly to sector where it is sold, also you don't have notoriety to buy 200MJ shields and weapons for it.
And also why waste so much money to be able to do 30k missions? Isn't trading is much better if you have such amount of money?

There are other TMs in the game - the one you mention is the Teladi one EDIT: I was confusing with a Teladi Toucan, but what you speak of is Terran, which also tells me you are playing X3AP, not TC - OK, I'm caught up now , but if you are not limiting yourself to a race (I usually do, so if you are, I understand perfectly), then there are also ones available for every race except Terran (they also get one in AP, though). And yes, trading is usually the fastest early-game money-maker, unless you crank your combat skill fast and can keep pace with ships owned, then combat missions (*yawn*) get very lucrative.

(Another side note: Recovering stolen fighters and transports are basically impossible to complete. It requires enough damage on the ship to force the pilot to bail, but they tend to end with the ship being destroyed.)

So they are broken?

I wouldn't say these are broken per se, but they are, arguably, poorly thought out - I would expect a hefty bonus to the pilot chance to bail, at least, but as they stand, I also avoid these. The ones for boardable vessels are another story, though, as there you are not at the mercy of random number generation (well, not so much, at least - you can just about guarantee a favourable outcome if you are properly prepared and have done your homework )

Good hunting!

[jlehtone]

Both of you forgot about "early game" I am talking about. When I will get my hands on jump drive I won't bother with missions and just trade.

They have played many games. With that experience and knowhow they can dash through the "early game" very quickly or without "suffering". There is a balancing challenge; how to keep the game playable for both the first timers and the veterans?

I prefer not to do Station Defences or Patrols (except Xenon Patrols) because I don't want to kill too many Pirates or Yaki.

The lack of mission details pre-decision is a genuine issue: there are races that I cannot currently assassinate. That means a fail or reload, when the truth is revealed.

I don't bother to trade before or after getting the JD; missions can be that lucrative.

(Another side note: Recovering stolen fighters and transports are basically impossible to complete. It requires enough damage on the ship to force the pilot to bail, but they tend to end with the ship being destroyed.)

So they are broken?

The bail mechanics/chance is a problem. In X3TC a plot has one mission too that depends on (unlikely) bail.

When the stolen ship is large enough, it can be easily boarded. However, there seems to be an issue in those too (after you have successfully completed the mission).

X3AP War Mission counter does not count all successfully completed war missions as complete.

[Snafu_X3]

In the first couple of posts you mention SETA as an aid to gaining some speed; you are mistaken! SETA speeds up time for the whole universe, including mission timeouts, so it can be a disadvantage if you use it during timed missions

See also my sig for the Wiki link on how to do most generic missions; I'm not going to repeat myself again here..

[birdtable]

This is why X3TC has such a passionate following,, all the people above that have given advice have been through the same barriers, these barriers are self discipline on what missions to take based on what equipment you carry and expertise ...... This was not a game based on easy challenges, do not expect to succeed with incorrect tactics or limited equipment/ships/knowledge.
Have to say "don't blame the game look to your failings to understand what is required to succeed".
These remarks are intended to be good friendly advice....and yes some are bugged..

[sizeofbool]

I do agree on the absolute time-limit with no grace - in "real life" if you are 1 minute late with something, you can usually get away with it, heheh. However, on a computer, that sort of human flexibility is extremely hard to implement without making it abusable and predictable...

I've already explained in my other post how missions with past schedule timer could be solved without abusing you talked about.

Oh, here's a potentially helpful tip: when you are returning the ship, stay out the destination sector - the ship will dock more quickly, as it won't have to manoeuvre into dock - it will simply fly to the station icon and that will register as "arrived" - that will avoid many of the "in the last minute" situations.

I didn't understand how to do that. After I asked permission to dock, green docking icon appears, but if I'm on the back of the station I have to go around it to be able to dock. You suggest there is a faster way without going around the station?

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Two issues there:
1. If you are at the point of fighting M6s and M7s and can't afford a jumpdrive, you're doing it wrong.

Well if you fight with pirates and do a combat missions your combat rank in game goes up and so the level of enemies you encounter in combat missions. This is what I remember from my previous X3TC playthrough. I don't see an issue here.
In current playthrough have gathered around 600k, 1xM5, 1xM4, and managed to capture TS Vulture. Combat got harder already, because I encounter M3-s.
So I stopped to do Combat missions and tried to make money from another kinds of missions, just to find they are flawed by design and everyone are mostly ok with that.

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2. If you are taking on M7s in a M3, the most people will agree that, again, you're doing it wrong - and certainly you will struggle to apply enough damage within the time limit while keeping yourself alive! In general, unless you are a masochist or out to prove some macho hot-shotness (or both), taking on a ship that's more than one class above yours is not viable - so, M3 vs M6 is fine, but M3 vs M7 is not. I'm not saying it's not doable, but you have to be very experienced, very good, and it WILL take time! (More time than a mission grants you, usually.)

It is hard and requires tactics, different combat style and yes requires time.
Unrealistic time (15 minutes) is the main reason why I complain about timed "kill" missions when I have to kill some criminal that was already tracked for me by third-party. 24h you talked later in the post sounds reasonable enough.
And now when you mentioned it, I agree about M7vsM3, but at that time M3 was everything I had, and I was basically forced by the game to trade and build stations, because combat difficulty was that high. But, boy, destroying M6-s in M3 feels great.

...
To be honest, I don't do all that many missions in the early game, I generally try to find other, more interesting ways to make money, as I find almost ALL the missions to be too easy, most MUCH too easy (yes, including time-limited ones.) However, there IS possibly a better approach to mission design: it's used in some of EVE's missions, and was sometimes used in X2 and X3R - no time limit, or a generous one, but a substantial bonus if missions completed withing a challenging time constraint (usually, they were not really worth completing without the bonus) - this would make the missions more "scaleable", not as binary black and white.

I'm going to go out on a limb here and surmise that you're fairly new to the game - might I suggest getting to know it better, and getting better at it, before rushing to (mostly incorrect) judgements? But there's one thing you unwittingly got right there: "why bother with..." - and here's the thing: the bit after the "with" varies from person to person. Everyone has his/her preferences in this game, and that's part of the beauty of it - there are elements in it to suit just about everyone. Station defense and sector patrol you gel with in terms of expertise, but I gather that you want to gel with more types - great, then play some more, get to grips, and learn the skills required for other mission types. I don't think there's anyone out there who likes ALL the missions equally, nor is equally good at all of them. I think it's unrealistic to expect that.

The X titles are not for those who are seeking instant gratification - some things WILL be out of your reach in the first few hours (or, in fact, the first few WEEKS, in the case of newcomers to the game.)

Good hunting - I do wish you the best of luck (but you'll also need an open mind!)

Thanks. I see your points and I think you partially agree with some of my points.

Initial purpose of my post was to leave honest feedback from a player's perspective for a EgoSoft QA Team out there, since X4 is in the development. And maybe get some fixes for X3TC in patch v3.3 after Beta.

[sizeofbool]

In the first couple of posts you mention SETA as an aid to gaining some speed; you are mistaken! SETA speeds up time for the whole universe, including mission timeouts, so it can be a disadvantage if you use it during timed missions

See also my sig for the Wiki link on how to do most generic missions; I'm not going to repeat myself again here..

I mentioned SETA because I manually fly the ship I have to return, to save some mission time from weird auto-pilot behaviour. I've also mentioned that in some posts of mine.

Thanks, but no thanks. In general wiki will spoil every game and spoiled game is very boring to play.

[RAVEN.myst]

Thanks. I see your points and I think you partially agree with some of my points.

Indeed. I know my tone can sometimes get somewhat abrasive, but my intention IS to help (Disclaimer: when I can, hehehe)

@jlehtone: You reminded me of something: besides the tedium, I also avoid the combat missions in order not to antagonise the outlaws (well, except in games where I've decided from the start to be totally at odds with them) - in my more trade-heavy games (which describes more or less all of them!), I tend to prefer to stay on the right side of the wrong side of the tracks, so to speak - especially since I tend to pick a sovereign faction to be at war with, so having the rogues at my throat too tends to be impractical

AFTERNOTE: Oh yes, regarding the sometimes less-than-thorough briefings, that I totally agree with (as in, I also find them woefully inadequate, that is.) Quite a few of them don't provide enough details for the prospective contractor to make an informed decision (for some, this is a cue to save and then likely reload...)

[ancienthighway]

In current playthrough have gathered around 600k, 1xM5, 1xM4, and managed to capture TS Vulture.

With 600k you are in a good position to pick up a TM. You mention the Toucan, but it's a TP. The Pelican is the Teladi TM. Couple that with a Vulture and it appears you are focused on Teladi, quite possibly did the Teladi start.

Having played a fair number of X3TC games, you should know that Teladi ships are by far the slowest ships (except the Dolphin) in the game. If you are trying to do timed missions with an M5 that is just barely faster than other races' M4, you've set yourself a big handicap to begin with. And having played a fair number of TC games, missions must not have been a problem for you before since you never mentioned them.

Why even bother with that M4 you have? There is only one Commonwealth M4 worth fighting in because those 5mj shields are worthless on fighters.

A any TM (470k for the Pelican, 438k for the Argon Magnatar) comes with 1 200mj shield. You are using it as a ferry in the early game. No need for full shields. You don't even need guns on it. It's simply a ferry to jump your M5 (or M4) from one sector to another quickly.

I'm not talking about mid game for anything I've mentioned. I focus on early game, getting an empire started when I have nothing and build my way up to buying my first station. I've accepted 93 missions and have completed 88 of them in my current game. Most of those failed was a decision on my part to sell the ship instead of returning it. (That's not cheating. It's an option, and it's one that dropped that race's rep from level 4 to level 1 both times.) While on the subject of returning abandoned ships, you don't have to drive the ship back yourself. Set it in motion and go find another mission.

If you are playing TC, why haven't you done the Terran Plot yet? Do it and you won't have all the struggles with missions.
Why aren't you buying second hand ships, TC or AP? I picked up an M6 for 300k in this game! I've built a transport fleet of 15 ships, with 11 of them bought second hand at less than half the cost of new ones. The ones I did buy were for specific tasks.

Many new players unintentionally eliminate one the the most lucrative missions in the game. If when you explore new sectors, you go around and scan all the asteroids, you will never get a Scan Asteroid mission. Even early game, this pay around 1k per asteroid for up to 10 designated asteroids per mission. They build rep for the race giving the mission, and you get paid for what you were doing anyway. It's possible to stack those missions, I've had three of them at the same time covering the same 4 sectors for a very sweet total payout!

Station Defense missions with no fight rank are just a matter of accepting the mission and letting those M5 pirates crash into the station. Rep gain and a couple hundred credits for watching fireworks. As fight rank increases, police and border control ships will remove the ships that don't crash. Rep and some credits. Works for patrols in sector as well. If you feel you must participate, pick up some Dragon and Silkworm missiles. Payout is a little better, but you lose pirate or Yaki rep for each ship you kill which could make things difficult later. Speaking of Yaki, the Yaki TM available from their shipyard with no reputation is one of the best TMs in the game. It's great as a mission runner with an M5 and M3 onboard. The best combat TM (also a decent mission runner) is the OTAS Zephyrus.

[RAVEN.myst]

With 600k you are in a good position to pick up a TM. You mention the Toucan, but it's a TP. The Pelican is the Teladi TM. Couple that with a Vulture and it appears you are focused on Teladi, quite possibly did the Teladi start.

Sorry, this is actually my fault for introducing confusion - he spoke of the Toukon, which is the USC TM (it was I who assumed "Toucan" - my apple-orgies.) Which also identifies the game as X3AP, as Terrans had no TM in X3TC, of course.

Speaking of Yaki, the Yaki TM available from their shipyard with no reputation is one of the best TMs in the game. It's great as a mission runner with an M5 and M3 onboard. The best combat TM (also a decent mission runner) is the OTAS Zephyrus.

Those two, the Chokaro and the Zephyrus, are easily my two favourites (though I do like the Terran Toukon, too, mostly for its looks - those external docking clamps are different to all other TMs, and to me look very cool; also, it's quite decent on speed, though nowhere near as good as the other two, of course.)

[jlehtone]

Having played a fair number of X3TC games, you should know that Teladi ships are by far the slowest ships (except the Dolphin) in the game. If you are trying to do timed missions with an M5 that is just barely faster than other races' M4, you've set yourself a big handicap to begin with.

The Teladi shipwrights have one outlier in their repertoire. The other, more expensive M5. Kestrel. Fast and can use JD too.

I didn't understand how to do that. After I asked permission to dock, green docking icon appears, but if I'm on the back of the station I have to go around it to be able to dock. You suggest there is a faster way without going around the station?

Do not fly the ship. Tell it to dock and then leave the sector before it gets to the station. There is no collision, no "going around", when you are not in the same sector. The auto-pilot is ok there.

OOS. Out Of Sector. All the other sectors, except the one where you are, are OOS.

If you do sit in a ship and want extra speed, then use strafe. You cannot use strafe if you do use SETA. SETA does not change the speed of ships; it changes how much real-life time is needed to play one ingame minute.