Terran Industrialist

[Spearthrower]

I am opening this thread because we were discussing this under another topic, and it'd be nice to have it in one thread.

The idea in this play-through is to be a xenophobic industrialist who becomes the Terran economy. All focus is on factories, CAG, CLS, with no UT's and as limited interaction with the other xeno scum as possible! Assuming that interaction doesn't involve explosions.

I've been playing this attempt for a few hours.

Bought a Valkyrie and sold the weapons in the Katana, then the Katana after exchanging all the software.

Flew around exploring the Inner System, then the Outer System, but have gone no further other than heading through the Xenon backdoor to open Teladi space for future jumps.

95% of the time, I've been running taxi / military personnel missions - as the Valkyrie has no weapons fitted, I can carry 15 (or maybe more, but this is the max I've had). This alone, funnily, brought me to Hero of Sol reputation, which is probably just a little absurd.

I hired a TL, took it to Megnir and bought a water plant L to put in Neptune together with a Baldric to administrate it. I chose Neptune because there's a gate there so it's possible my CAG's might be able to jump home after buying/selling at least.

Then I hired a TL at the Moon and bought a Protein Paste to be delivered to Neptune too, also with a baldric CAG.

The water plant is starting to make a profit, but it will take quite a while to pay for itself, and the protein's going slowly but will get better when the CAGs level up because there's plenty of places around that need it.

I'm not sure what to do next for factories, whether to start doubling up water and protein in Neptune, or to establish somewhere else - Saturn looks needy. I'm mostly going to avoid the inner system from now including the Jupiter systems, and everything below that.

A more profitable trade good would be ideal to help me kick up my margins. Can you sell 1MJ's in Terran space as with AP?

One thing I do know I need is some satellites! No missions offered in Teladi space - I take it I need to buy a warship and kill some pirates for them first?

[RAVEN.myst]

Greeteries

So, just a few random thoughts (have some things that need attending to - perhaps later I can reply more comprehensively, if it seems necessary)

- Placing on either side of Neptune-Althes gate (I favour Althes, but either side is equally valid, I'd say) is a good idea - places you as close as possible to the outer Sol sectors, while the Terran-held territories beyond this gate all have their own gates, so they're not a problem. Yes, the CAGs will be able to jump home, so at least they get to do this on the return trip - well, except for Saturn...
- Right, Saturn. This one's a bit of a problem child, because it's an important sector, but you can't use jumpy CAGs here (for the return jump) as they will then jump out to Asteroid Belt and hike North on their way out to Saturn (yes, it's asinine... oh well.) So, for Saturn, I recommend dedicated CAGs not equipped with JDs, which will take the slow way in both directions (here, setting up in Neptune instead of Althes works well in your favour, by cutting some distance.) AFTERTHOUGHT: It may be worth trying out a CAG with JD - with your station placed in Neptune, it may actually take the more direct route, depending on how the distance calculation is done.
- Additional regarding Saturn: my usual placement has been my main plex in Althes with a trade range of 3, and Saturn and its satellites on the no-fly list, to prevent joyrides through AB and Jupiter. I also advise against including Aldrin in your initial operations, as it takes freighters ages to get anywhere in it, slowing things down grotesquely, without any good reason for it. (Aldrin 2, however, is fine, as it has its own gate and is of a normal size.)
- Water and paste, in my experience, are good choices. You may want to give your waterworks another freighter, though, as it has two resources and a product, and some of the trips (both to fetch ice and to deliver aqua) can be quite slow.
- Where to take it from there? Well, diversifying a portfolio is usually a good idea, so if you want to add another product, I would suggest looking at how much of a market for C-Rations there is (they are used by all NPC-placed missile factories, so I consider this quite important.)
- Usually, I end up making paste and MREs - at least initially, I sell both (so therefore twice as much paste as I use.) Later on, since you intend to BE the Terran economy, you can add enough MRE production to soak up all your paste, and possibly displace the NPC MRE factories.
- Water is cheap to establish, so expanding this is a good idea - little outlay for respectable (if modest) profits, and healthy effect on local production (in those rare cases where it's a primary resource.) If I recall correctly, 3 large waterworks is enough, more than that would saturate (waterlog? ) the market.
- 1MJ shields - don't know, never resorted to this, myself. I did, in one game, set up a multiple missile factory in Venus or Luna, and it did OK, as well as providing me with a supply of 'Geists.

Now, onto other aspects:
- CLS is a problem for Terran (inexplicably, the author/s of this excellent script saw fit to give this core function only to Argon, and one Paranid special station, which makes little sense, as it's fundamental functionality.) Only Argon equipment docks and the Paranid Communications Facility in Priest's Pity sell it, so your options are to trek out to PP and buy it from them (you're probably on barely adequate terms with them, unless you've been antagonising them), or... well, that's pretty much your only option unless you intend to kiss and make up with Argon. I've never seen NPC ships flying with CLS software installed, so piratic options for this seem non-existent.
- Regarding Teladi: unlike the other races, Teladi have a unique selling policy: except for ships (which are handled same as by other races), as long as you can dock at a Teladi station, you may buy whatever it's selling (this is much like pirate and Yaki, in fact.) This means that, unless you've pissed them off, you should be able to find some stations to buy from, but only in border-security sectors (you're probably not allowed to dock in core-security sectors, unless you've pleased them Teladi in some way already, which it sounds like you haven't.) So, if you CAN indeed dock at Teladi border stations, you needn't worry about missions for reputation - just trade with them and you'll quickly gain access to their core sector stations, too.

OK, that's what I got for now (a bit more extensive than I intended - now I MUST get some stuff done - back later.) As you know, questions are welcome

Happy hunting.
(And careful with that thing! You could put someone's eye out.)

[Timsup2nothin]

Greeteries


- CLS is a problem for Terran (inexplicably, the author/s of this excellent script saw fit to give this core function only to Argon, and one Paranid special station, which makes little sense, as it's fundamental functionality.) Only Argon equipment docks and the Paranid Communications Facility in Priest's Pity sell it, so your options are to trek out to PP and buy it from them (you're probably on barely adequate terms with them, unless you've been antagonising them), or... well, that's pretty much your only option unless you intend to kiss and make up with Argon. I've never seen NPC ships flying with CLS software installed, so piratic options for this seem non-existent.

Observations or perhaps explanations.

The CLS script was originally created for Reunion (or perhaps before) and there were no Terrans, so making it available for Terrans wasn't a consideration. Near as I can tell the opening script that places it as an available good for purchase has never been updated, so it is only available at Argon facilities plus the one Paranid source for those anti Argon games.

Since it is added rather than original the scripts that equip NPC ships as well as the loot scripts when a ship is abandoned do not access CLS Software in any way. So no you will never get it through piracy.

I advise playing a Terran who is willing to take advantage of the long enmity between Argon and Paranid. Be friendly enough with the Paranid to access their Comm Station. They can also source your satellites and you can ditch the Teladi. Friendly relations with the Teladi are actually a lot harder to rationalize, IMO.

[ancienthighway]

Timsup2nothing has a nice guide for setting up an ice and water monopoly. Unfortunately, it is based in TC so some adjustments need to be made for AP. I did so setting up in Uranus. I augmented the water production (4 medium plants from Saturn) with 2 each protein paste and carbo cakes, also medium from Saturn.

While I rarely make a point to produce bio for CW races, it is profitable for Terran. As it is most is "imported" from nearby planets. Water is constantly in short supply. I tended to just open the doors and let the consumers come to me in addition to the CAGs, but I did have dedicated transports for energy and ice.

As far as food and minerals, pay attention to what consumers need and if there is a shortfall.

When it comes to weapons production, I'm not sure it's worth getting into unless you are supplying yourself. With the resellers only stocking 2 or maybe 4 per weapon, you have limited options for selling to the AI. You don't even get a "sink" point.

Shields up to 200MJ should do well.

[Timsup2nothin]

When it comes to weapons production, I'm not sure it's worth getting into unless you are supplying yourself. With the resellers only stocking 2 or maybe 4 per weapon, you have limited options for selling to the AI. You don't even get a "sink" point.

In TC the Saturn Research Station was a useful sink point for most things. I've not played AP as a Terran yet though so can't say if it still is.

On the previous issue of CLS software availability...

I have played "pure pirate" games where I added CLS software as available goods at Pirate Anarchy Ports. I personally have no issue with a modified tag. If I wanted to play a "pure Terran" game I'd probably just add the software to some major Terran core stations (like Saturn Research, assuming it exists) and call it good.

[Nanook]

One more thing about the Teladi, you can't improve relations with them by killing pirates in their space. While you will get the bounty, assuming you have a Teladi police license, your rep will not go up. Only way to increase rep with the Teladi is through missions or trade.

I do disagree with Tim's assessment of the Teladi as hard to rationalize. In fact, the Teladi make the most sense since they're the one race that's driven solely by credits, and they'll take anybody's, including the 'evil' Terran's.

[Timsup2nothin]

Terranssss are bad for businessssss. Take all the profitsssss. Keep all their technology to themselvessssss.

[RAVEN.myst]

The CLS script was originally created for Reunion (or perhaps before) and there were no Terrans, so making it available for Terrans wasn't a consideration.

I know that at least CLS(Internal) was available in X2 (and overall X2 and X3R are rather similar, in gameplay structure - its the graphics that were the major difference; in terms of gameplay, X2 and X3R are more similar than X3R and X3Tc - but this is a neither here nor there digression ), so yes, it well pre-dates Terrans (who made their first cameo, non-playable appearance at the end of X3R.)

However, I never understood why it was never made available to other CW races. Take a look:
- Boron: these are quite close allies of Argon, so the tech would have made its way across (through trade/business partners, word-of-mouth stimulating interest, and Borons' natural technological curiosity and ingenuity, especially in shipbuilding/fitting.)
- Teladi: well, these guys are into profit (yes, ethnically reductive - but true.) CLS is merely a way to plug some holes in logistical efficiency, therefore increasing productivity, improving distribution = more profit$. So they would have made a point of acquiring it.
- Paranid: while they may disdain at using inferior Argon technology, they ARE a technologically advanced race, and religious zealots or not, they wouldn't have gotten there without at least some of their number having the intelligence to recognise something that works well and enhances processes. Process efficiency is a key to maximising resources, minimising waste, and accelerating advancement - they would have recognised the value in it, and reverse-engineered a "superior, blessed by the light" version.
- Split: arguably, being primarily war-like, these might neglect something so "peaceful". And yet, an army marches on its stomach, and arguably none more so than an army (fleet) operating in the vast and deadly-hostile emptiness of the void of space. You can't wage war without logistics, and the smart commander knows that one of the most effective ways to reduce the effectiveness of the enemy is to destroy his baggage train. Hence, conclusion: even the Split would likely have interest in the CLS software (or perhaps a more militaristic derivative, granted.)
Anyhow, all this is completely academic - merely having some fun pointing out the illogic of the missing implementations. But the actual reason for it is likely much as you said: the script was made and added, without regard for role-playing considerations or such, and since X2 was completely Argonocentric (only one game start, as Julian Brennan, pardoned Argon convict pressed into the ASS by Ban Danna [sounds so wrong!]), it's quite understandable... Still a pity, though...

Incidentally, Thrower of Spear/s: There's something I will be looking into in my next Terran game (coming soon...), and that's seeing whether I can at all emulate (in an EXTREMELY limited fashion) some of CLS functionality via Supply Command Software (which Terrans have access to.) From my rather limited knowledge of it, I am almost sure this attempt will fail completely on all fronts, but it's worth getting more familiar with it, as I may be able to contrive some use for it for the early game (as opposed to its conventional late-game large-fleet focus.)

I advise playing a Terran who is willing to take advantage of the long enmity between Argon and Paranid. Be friendly enough with the Paranid to access their Comm Station. They can also source your satellites and you can ditch the Teladi. Friendly relations with the Teladi are actually a lot harder to rationalize, IMO.

Agreed on all points, here (though I CAN rationalise dealings with Teladi granted their tendency to neutrality - they have neither allies nor enemies among the CW races, and are more interest in commerce than nationalism, not even restricting sales of their wares by relationship status.) As for the Paranid: yes, I just think "enemy of my enemy", and even though my faction is officially at war with them (and blast many an Oddy around Heretic's End, for instance), I am a "special operative" with a broader mandate to get results (yes, that old chestnut! heheh)

When it comes to weapons production, I'm not sure it's worth getting into unless you are supplying yourself. With the resellers only stocking 2 or maybe 4 per weapon, you have limited options for selling to the AI. You don't even get a "sink" point.

Poltergeists I found about as profitable as any other missile, which is to say middling good(ish) but unexceptional if you're willing to make the personal effort to ship them out periodically (auto-exporting them is trickier, especially given the chasm that is AB+Jupiter), and even just selling to passing trade (with my shop set up in the not-exactly-central location of Luna, heheheh) it was OK, but I agree that it is rather lackluster (I always found missile production as an "early money-spinner" to be a poor-man's option for those who simply didn't know any better methods.) As for guns, I completely agree: the market saturates too quickly (despite expanded EMPC and SSC capacities at EqD equivalents in AP compared to TC), and the Terran weapon factories are not cheap! I would, however, advise starting production of those (especially SSCs for M7s and up - SSCs are the trickiest to source, with one factory in Mars [cut off by warzone] and the other in Jupiter [actually IN the warzone!]) once there is sufficient surplus for reinvestment, for future outfitting of your own ships. While in AP equipping Terran ships is a LOT less of a ball-ache than it was in TC, it's still hardly trivial...

There's an alternative approach to supplying weapons, which I personally favour: instead of going out and building own weapon factories, seek out and fulfil missions to build such. You get more customers for your Meals-Ready-to-Eat, ore and energy, and you make some profit on the job itself (and, if you weren't already the Taxi-Hero of Sol, you would also gain considerable Terran respect.) However, unless you get lucky and get a couple/few orders for SSC forges, you'll probably still want to build one or two of those for yourself...

In TC the Saturn Research Station was a useful sink point for most things. I've not played AP as a Terran yet though so can't say if it still is.

Yes, it's much the same, which makes it a great sink for looted CW missiles and weapons, although the ODS at Mars also accepts those goods and is closer. I think the OPB at Jupiter can also be used in this manner. There are a (only) few other Terran stations that will accept non-Terran guns and ammo, but the rest are rather less conveniently located, for the most part (though I think the MB in the farthest unknown sector is among them, and usually has a jump beacon.)

If I wanted to play a "pure Terran" game I'd probably just add the [CLS] software to some major Terran core stations (like Saturn Research, assuming it exists) and call it good.

I would totally agree with you there, and might even tolerate a *** modified *** for the sake of this. In fact, I may end up doing so in my next ATF game... (To add to my previous list of why the various races would have/use CLS, here's my reasoning for Terran, which I omitted before: Argon presumably invented CLS; Argon are humans; Terran are humans; Argon society evolved from an already advanced and presumably consumeristic/industrialised Terran society... connect the dots )


[EDIT: Concatenated 2 posts into 1]

Terranssss are bad for businessssss. Take all the profitsssss. Keep all their technology to themselvessssss.

Thisss isss good for usss - they not sssell, we sssell - no competition. If we can "find" Terran tech, we can make proft$$$ from Argon pink-skinssss...

[Spearthrower]

Greeteries

So, just a few random thoughts (have some things that need attending to - perhaps later I can reply more comprehensively, if it seems necessary)

Grand, thanks!

- Placing on either side of Neptune-Althes gate (I favour Althes, but either side is equally valid, I'd say) is a good idea - places you as close as possible to the outer Sol sectors, while the Terran-held territories beyond this gate all have their own gates, so they're not a problem. Yes, the CAGs will be able to jump home, so at least they get to do this on the return trip - well, except for Saturn...

Yes, that's the idea - they can jump to the sectors down from Neptune, and always jump back! I am glad I didn't overlook something there!

- Right, Saturn. This one's a bit of a problem child, because it's an important sector, but you can't use jumpy CAGs here (for the return jump) as they will then jump out to Asteroid Belt and hike North on their way out to Saturn (yes, it's asinine... oh well.)

Ahh right. Even though I've put AB and Jupiter on blacklist - they might decide to go to Saturn and jump to AB gate anyway!

I hadn't thought of that - it means I need to get these Neptune CAG's to blacklist Saturn 1, 2, 3 and Titan as well! :/

So, for Saturn, I recommend dedicated CAGs not equipped with JDs, which will take the slow way in both directions (here, setting up in Neptune instead of Althes works well in your favour, by cutting some distance.) AFTERTHOUGHT: It may be worth trying out a CAG with JD - with your station placed in Neptune, it may actually take the more direct route, depending on how the distance calculation is done.

I think it may be a risk/reward type thing as if they have JDs then they might decide to pop through AB and get squished. Probably best to leave the Saturn based ones JD free but give them access through the Saturns and Titan and obviously on through Jupiter and Neptune.

- Additional regarding Saturn: my usual placement has been my main plex in Althes with a trade range of 3, and Saturn and its satellites on the no-fly list, to prevent joyrides through AB and Jupiter.

Yes, I see that now, and I expect the first time it happens, there'll be an Argon M6 right on its tail!

More thinking needs to be done on the logistics side here because my current Neptune ones might decide to jump to AB just to get to Saturn.

I also advise against including Aldrin in your initial operations, as it takes freighters ages to get anywhere in it, slowing things down grotesquely, without any good reason for it. (Aldrin 2, however, is fine, as it has its own gate and is of a normal size.)

hehe yeah, that was first on the blacklist! I put a sector trader in there in the last game at the same time I put 9 other sector traders out around CW - it took the Aldrin 2 one at least 20 or 30 times as long to get to UT status.

- Water and paste, in my experience, are good choices. You may want to give your waterworks another freighter, though, as it has two resources and a product, and some of the trips (both to fetch ice and to deliver aqua) can be quite slow.

I was planning to do exactly that! While I went gallivanting off to the Moon to buy a Paste Plant, I left two CAG's there and it was moving a lot quicker - just tight on funds right now and want to find a good investment to get the funds coming in.

- Where to take it from there? Well, diversifying a portfolio is usually a good idea, so if you want to add another product, I would suggest looking at how much of a market for C-Rations there is (they are used by all NPC-placed missile factories, so I consider this quite important.)

C-Rations to the Oort Side are pretty low, but Jupiter to Saturn seem well served. Maybe worth considering for Neptune.

- Usually, I end up making paste and MREs - at least initially, I sell both (so therefore twice as much paste as I use.)

Right, good plan.

I am also thinking I am not going to focus on making any plexes this time, but rather just have lots of individual factories with CAG running around buying up cheap and selling high.

This represents a huge change in the way I do it because I usually like to just get a closed loop sorted and know it's done.

Later on, since you intend to BE the Terran economy, you can add enough MRE production to soak up all your paste, and possibly displace the NPC MRE factories.

I was wondering whether that would be a good idea as it would also limit who I can sell to, but I guess that will be much later and I won't care about the pennies by then.

- Water is cheap to establish, so expanding this is a good idea - little outlay for respectable (if modest) profits, and healthy effect on local production (in those rare cases where it's a primary resource.) If I recall correctly, 3 large waterworks is enough, more than that would saturate (waterlog? ) the market.

Heheh. 3 all in Neptune? Would you plex that or leave them individual?

- 1MJ shields - don't know, never resorted to this, myself. I did, in one game, set up a multiple missile factory in Venus or Luna, and it did OK, as well as providing me with a supply of 'Geists.

I'll take a look and see if there's a market for it. Just wish I had satellites so I could check all the stations across the outer solar system without flying there.

Now, onto other aspects:
- CLS is a problem for Terran (inexplicably, the author/s of this excellent script saw fit to give this core function only to Argon, and one Paranid special station, which makes little sense, as it's fundamental functionality.) Only Argon equipment docks and the Paranid Communications Facility in Priest's Pity sell it, so your options are to trek out to PP and buy it from them (you're probably on barely adequate terms with them, unless you've been antagonising them), or... well, that's pretty much your only option unless you intend to kiss and make up with Argon. I've never seen NPC ships flying with CLS software installed, so piratic options for this seem non-existent.

Yes, the space monkeys need to be buttered up. I've not done anything to change other species' relations yet - just noted that Teladi weren't interested in giving me missions.

I am definitely not going to be friends with the Argon this game. It makes a nice change of pace to be in a war with a purpose.

As for CLS, I guess it will just have to wait - I think there's plenty I can do with CAG for now, and when I get up to a dozen or so million I won't mind buying a Springblossom, at which point reputation seeking becomes a lot easier!

- Regarding Teladi: unlike the other races, Teladi have a unique selling policy: except for ships (which are handled same as by other races), as long as you can dock at a Teladi station, you may buy whatever it's selling (this is much like pirate and Yaki, in fact.) This means that, unless you've pissed them off, you should be able to find some stations to buy from, but only in border-security sectors (you're probably not allowed to dock in core-security sectors, unless you've pleased them Teladi in some way already, which it sounds like you haven't.) So, if you CAN indeed dock at Teladi border stations, you needn't worry about missions for reputation - just trade with them and you'll quickly gain access to their core sector stations, too.

Trade with Xeno scum? There surely must be another way?

Yes, I guess I need to find a Teladi border to dock, but I think killing pirates the sector south of Grand Exchange might be enough to get me docking rights.

After that, I might just hit their Siezewell stock exchange and do it that way - I seem to recall getting a lot of Teladi rep through that last game.

OK, that's what I got for now (a bit more extensive than I intended - now I MUST get some stuff done - back later.) As you know, questions are welcome

There were two things that I thought about that you'd said before, but I can only remember one of them now.

Hmmmm..... nope, can't recall the other. Oh well, the one I do recall is about the CLS/CAG use of small plex to use as a kind of stocking station to import cheap resources and have your CAG's sell them.

How does the CLS work with that? Do you use it to just buy from their target at a certain % of storage filled? Wouldn't you need a lot of CLS ships to do this effectively?

Happy hunting.
(And careful with that thing! You could put someone's eye out.)

If you're talking about the Valkyrie, I think me poking someone's eye is just going to make me a rather crumpled decoration on the front of their bridge. I've already had my heart stop a few times as I've just been about to exit a gate and had a vast Terran armada fly through right in front of my nose!

[Spearthrower]

The CLS script was originally created for Reunion (or perhaps before) and there were no Terrans, so making it available for Terrans wasn't a consideration. Near as I can tell the opening script that places it as an available good for purchase has never been updated, so it is only available at Argon facilities plus the one Paranid source for those anti Argon games.

Aye that makes sense when they were at war in Reunion, so you always had a choice between them relevant to your stance in their war.

I advise playing a Terran who is willing to take advantage of the long enmity between Argon and Paranid. Be friendly enough with the Paranid to access their Comm Station. They can also source your satellites and you can ditch the Teladi. Friendly relations with the Teladi are actually a lot harder to rationalize, IMO.

Take advantage of, I can get behind - but none of this being friendly with the space monkeys business!

I will probably need to be reasonably friendly with them just to be able to get the bits I need, but I am not sure I want them as long term friends. I think I'd prefer the Yaki!

[Spearthrower]

While I rarely make a point to produce bio for CW races, it is profitable for Terran. As it is most is "imported" from nearby planets. Water is constantly in short supply. I tended to just open the doors and let the consumers come to me in addition to the CAGs, but I did have dedicated transports for energy and ice.

Like flies to water!

As far as food and minerals, pay attention to what consumers need and if there is a shortfall.

That's where i need the blooming satellites! I am used to having a satellite everywhere and now keep trying to look at what that station needs in that sector on the other side of the system!

When it comes to weapons production, I'm not sure it's worth getting into unless you are supplying yourself. With the resellers only stocking 2 or maybe 4 per weapon, you have limited options for selling to the AI. You don't even get a "sink" point.

Aye, I will definitely stay away from that until I turn my industrial effort into a military one. But I think I'll be playing a mostly peaceful game until very late game.

Shields up to 200MJ should do well.

Grand, I will look into that!

[Spearthrower]

In TC the Saturn Research Station was a useful sink point for most things. I've not played AP as a Terran yet though so can't say if it still is.

I'll have to check that again because I remember it as being all bio.

On the previous issue of CLS software availability...

I have played "pure pirate" games where I added CLS software as available goods at Pirate Anarchy Ports. I personally have no issue with a modified tag. If I wanted to play a "pure Terran" game I'd probably just add the software to some major Terran core stations (like Saturn Research, assuming it exists) and call it good.

I have no problem with that either, but I am looking to get achievements here so I won't be doing that! Usually, though, it would make a lot of sense.

[Spearthrower]

One more thing about the Teladi, you can't improve relations with them by killing pirates in their space. While you will get the bounty, assuming you have a Teladi police license, your rep will not go up. Only way to increase rep with the Teladi is through missions or trade.

Ahh buggerance. I forgot about that! Maybe have to face off with some Xenon in Grand Exchange then when I've got a Springblossom - a couple of Q's should raise rep quick.

I do disagree with Tim's assessment of the Teladi as hard to rationalize. In fact, the Teladi make the most sense since they're the one race that's driven solely by credits, and they'll take anybody's, including the 'evil' Terran's.

Even RPing as a Xenophobe, I find the Teladi the least objectionable CW species.

[Timsup2nothin]

I think my issue was more that the Terran Xenophobes might be tolerant of one of their operatives working with the Paranids, who are distant from the Terran gates anyway and not likely to really support the hated Argons in any real way. But reporting to command that you've made a deal with a bunch of mercenary lizards who will sell you out at the turn of a credit? I can't see it.

Anyway...

Spearthrower, the term 'sink' refers to being able to sell things that the station doesn't carry, which means that no matter how much of it you produce (or otherwise acquire) you can convert it to credits. For example, if you build factories and start mass producing EMPCs it will not take long to fill every dock that stocks them, but you can take an entire freighter loaded with them to SRS and sell the lot of them, four at a time (or maybe two, not sure). There are lots of sinks for just about anything in commonwealth space, but not many for Terran stuff in Terran space.

[Spearthrower]

....but you can take an entire freighter loaded with them to SRS and sell the lot of them, four at a time (or maybe two, not sure).

Oooh intriguing.

[Timsup2nothin]

Warning in advance, there is no totally reliable automated way to do this. There is a method using continuous loop manual trade run, which I haven't tried in AP at all. It worked in TC, but performance was spotty when I closely monitored it and I am far to OCD to have something not working smoothly.

I usually just park a "recycling dock" at the sink and have my automated freighters dump stuff in it. Every now and then, usually prompted by overspending my ship funds, I manually empty it out.

[RAVEN.myst]

Regarding the deficiency of satellites in your initial Terran diet, where it comes to monitoring prices: you don't specifically need satellites, any asset in the sector will do (although you need the satellites in order to operate the [Teladi-provided] best buy/best sell for a sector other than the one you're in.) What I do in early Terran games is to buy a Valkyrie or Rapier for each important sector, and either park it in a station (especially a station that I want to guarantee GoD-proof, though there's less need for it in AP Terran than was in TC), or park it in space somewhere it gives me some view, if I want that too (most Terran sectors you can get away with that.) In either case, I hide these ships from the property list, to keep it tidy (personal preference.)

As for your question regarding synergising CLS with a CAGged station: the principle is very simple, it revolves around having the CLS2 freighers invert the usual trading strictures. So, you use CLS2s to either buy a station's product/s for cheap from its nearby "competitors" (this is how I most often use it), or to sell a station's resource/s. Neither of these functions is supported by CAG or the basic trade commands, as they are counter-intuitive. A concrete example: you could have, let's say, an Ore Mine; CAGs buy ECs and sell ore, right? Well, you can then have CLS2s buying cheap ore (in CW space you can pretty much always find it for 50ea, unless you've stripped the supplies ) and dropping it into your ore mine, adding to your CAGs' to-sell products. Conversely, you could have CLS2s sell ECs (which were brought in via CAG) from your ore mine (I find this MOST useful for a while around Argon Prime, where there is a major energy famine early in a game, so selling ECs is both profitable on its own, and also cranks up production thus assuring demand of ore and hotdogs.)

You ask whether the above is freighter-intensive: well, in a manner of speaking. Basically, it's purely scaleable, so the more freighters you add, the more you turn over and thus the more profitable you are. Important to keep in mind is that, roughly speaking, for every CLS freighter you add, you more or less have to add a CAG (in fact, I found it to be more like 2 CAGs for every 3 CLS2s, but it varies, and the principle stands.) IMPORTANT: this gets pretty damn docking-port intensive pretty damn quickly, so I highly recommend doing this sort of thing from a complex, even if it's a small one, because a plex hub has (iIrc) 20 docking clamps, as opposed to a single station's 5. Congested docking ports can cause the whole operation to grind to a halt and end up requiring manual intervention to sort out.

Oh, you also asked whether to plex or disperse the additional water plants. My preference is to consolidate into a plex (it tends to make for more efficient running, but mainly I like to keep my property list clean), but you mentioned that for the moment at least you are going with dispersed factories. This presents an advantage out in Terran space, given the lack of internal gates: since you have to try to keep trading distances short, scattering various (even duplicate) factories around can give you better coverage, after a fashion. For instance, you could have water and/or food in Uranus or Saturn itself, in order to feed that particular problem child. (I once built a secondary plex in Uranus and had CAGs operating from it without JDs with a trade range of 2, thus serving not only Saturn, but its satellite sectors - of course, I had to blacklist Jupiter.)

Something to keep in mind about operating stations or plexes in Terran space: because of the lack of gates, even when you have return-trip jumps you still need to compensate for the slower turnarounds, which means *more freighters*. This is something to just make peace with

Warning in advance, there is no totally reliable automated way to do this. There is a method using continuous loop manual trade run, which I haven't tried in AP at all. It worked in TC, but performance was spotty when I closely monitored it and I am far to OCD to have something not working smoothly.

Thanks for the reminder I also found myself using some of the "basic" trade commands, especially manual trade run with repeat enabled, in early Terran games. A far cry from CLS, but barely adequate in some cases (at least the command would balk when prices shifted too far into non-profit ranges - but as said above, "performance" CAN "be spotty" indeed!)


I hope I didn't forget anything (I *think* I've answered what questions I could)
Oh, and I was referring to the spear referenced in your name, with regards to endangering people's ocular safety

[Timsup2nothin]

IMPORTANT: this gets pretty damn docking-port intensive pretty damn quickly, so I highly recommend doing this sort of thing from a complex, even if it's a small one, because a plex hub has (iIrc) 20 docking clamps, as opposed to a single station's 5. Congested docking ports can cause the whole operation to grind to a halt and end up requiring manual intervention to sort out.

Adding to this, because it is timely since it relates to the "to plex or not to plex" question...

I almost always build two station complexes (sometimes I make exceptions for aesthetic reasons). Raven is correct, a complex docks 20, so for two stations that would dock ten I get double. Adding more stations wastes docking ports since no matter how many stations you add you still only get twenty docks. Any big complex I will usually break down into pairs, or pairs and a three if there's an odd number.

And that's important to me because the CAG/CLS operations Raven described...I am ALWAYS setting up stuff like that and pushing them to the limits of my docking capacity. Yes, it is very freighter intensive, they pay for themselves very fast...much faster than stations do.

[Spearthrower]

Regarding the deficiency of satellites in your initial Terran diet, where it comes to monitoring prices: you don't specifically need satellites, any asset in the sector will do (although you need the satellites in order to operate the [Teladi-provided] best buy/best sell for a sector other than the one you're in.) What I do in early Terran games is to buy a Valkyrie or Rapier for each important sector, and either park it in a station (especially a station that I want to guarantee GoD-proof, though there's less need for it in AP Terran than was in TC), or park it in space somewhere it gives me some view, if I want that too (most Terran sectors you can get away with that.) In either case, I hide these ships from the property list, to keep it tidy (personal preference.)

It's a nice idea, but I just can't bring myself to spend money on a ship that's just going to sit there. I fret over satellites enough as it is, placing them so specifically in locations that ensure maximum coverage with minimal threat - the thought of buying a ship I'll never use just to hold open a sector to view makes my palms sweaty.

Maybe I should play a Xenophobic Teladi instead! Lossst profitssss!

As for your question regarding synergising CLS with a CAGged station: the principle is very simple, it revolves around having the CLS2 freighers invert the usual trading strictures. So, you use CLS2s to either buy a station's product/s for cheap from its nearby "competitors" (this is how I most often use it), or to sell a station's resource/s. Neither of these functions is supported by CAG or the basic trade commands, as they are counter-intuitive. A concrete example: you could have, let's say, an Ore Mine; CAGs buy ECs and sell ore, right? Well, you can then have CLS2s buying cheap ore (in CW space you can pretty much always find it for 50ea, unless you've stripped the supplies ) and dropping it into your ore mine, adding to your CAGs' to-sell products. Conversely, you could have CLS2s sell ECs (which were brought in via CAG) from your ore mine (I find this MOST useful for a while around Argon Prime, where there is a major energy famine early in a game, so selling ECs is both profitable on its own, and also cranks up production thus assuring demand of ore and hotdogs.)

Ahh I see. I am going to have to play around with CLS2 a bit to see how that works - I take it there's a way to be quite specific about the amount you buy at - the only way I recall would be to set buying from the target station when it has x% of stock, which you then configure to be the % of stock it has when the price drops to the desired one.

However, let's say i have that ore mine and there are 3 AI ore mines around me I want to exploit. If I set my CLS to go to station A buy ore at 50, go to station B buy ore at 50, go to stations C buy ore at 50, won't this cause hiccups?

For example, if it fills up at A, then it's going to traipse around the route with a full cargo hold.

Alternatively, what if station A doesn't have anything to sell, will the CLS skip it and move onto B? I thought it didn't work this way and would just sit at the point of origin repeatedly trying but failing to leave, but it might be just that I've only used CLS2 for really simple purposes.

You ask whether the above is freighter-intensive: well, in a manner of speaking. Basically, it's purely scaleable, so the more freighters you add, the more you turn over and thus the more profitable you are. Important to keep in mind is that, roughly speaking, for every CLS freighter you add, you more or less have to add a CAG (in fact, I found it to be more like 2 CAGs for every 3 CLS2s, but it varies, and the principle stands.)

Apologies, my question wasn't clear there. I was wondering whether you use one CLS to just buy from one station and thus buy multiple ships to buy from multiple stations - one station each.... or whether you can use one CLS to buy from multiple stations. See my hiccups concern above!

The thing is, I am sure I knew this in the past, but I seem to have deleted it from my brain!

IMPORTANT: this gets pretty damn docking-port intensive pretty damn quickly, so I highly recommend doing this sort of thing from a complex, even if it's a small one, because a plex hub has (iIrc) 20 docking clamps, as opposed to a single station's 5. Congested docking ports can cause the whole operation to grind to a halt and end up requiring manual intervention to sort out.

Yessss! A very good reason to make small plexes even if they're not needed for anything other than docking!

Oh, you also asked whether to plex or disperse the additional water plants. My preference is to consolidate into a plex (it tends to make for more efficient running, but mainly I like to keep my property list clean), but you mentioned that for the moment at least you are going with dispersed factories. This presents an advantage out in Terran space, given the lack of internal gates: since you have to try to keep trading distances short, scattering various (even duplicate) factories around can give you better coverage, after a fashion. For instance, you could have water and/or food in Uranus or Saturn itself, in order to feed that particular problem child. (I once built a secondary plex in Uranus and had CAGs operating from it without JDs with a trade range of 2, thus serving not only Saturn, but its satellite sectors - of course, I had to blacklist Jupiter.)

I expect, taking the docking element into consideration, that just as in most problems of two extremes in real life, the most viable solution is one that uses both!

Neptune seems a good location to build tall, while I can build wide around the rest of the outer solar system.

Something to keep in mind about operating stations or plexes in Terran space: because of the lack of gates, even when you have return-trip jumps you still need to compensate for the slower turnarounds, which means *more freighters*. This is something to just make peace with

Something I've noticed is the volume of traffic in Terran space - some of the systems have quite tightly gathered stations and these sectors have pages of ships flying through. Guess I have to join them in that to beat them!

I hope I didn't forget anything (I *think* I've answered what questions I could)

Thanks - appreciated.

Oh, and I was referring to the spear referenced in your name, with regards to endangering people's ocular safety

Oh don't worry about that little harpoon - it's for dealing with giant squid, and you'll be glad I've got it if such a beastie ever turns up here!

[Spearthrower]

And that's important to me because the CAG/CLS operations Raven described...I am ALWAYS setting up stuff like that and pushing them to the limits of my docking capacity. Yes, it is very freighter intensive, they pay for themselves very fast...much faster than stations do.

I can readily see how it would generate much more revenue over shorter periods of time.

Just need to figure out the arcane workings of CLS! Oh, and go and get the rep to buy the bloody thing!