If you would buff fighters, how would you buff them?

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Santi
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Post by Santi » Fri, 10. Feb 17, 21:28

You can tweak fighters, but the problem is the gap between ship classes and roles. Large and X Large trading ships have too many weapons, some of them could qualify as warships to be honest.

A heavy fighter should not have any problems tackling a trading ship, fair enough if the trade ship is a smuggler or carries a very valuable cargo for it to have more guns, but run of the mill traders should be pretty much defenceless.

As for warships, Balors are a good example of balanced anti fighter armament in a specific class of ship with a defined role. Important as others have said, is that there are more control regarding how to use your assets in combat, does not matter how much you tweak fighters and other ships if at the end combat is a free for all in melee range.
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Post by Warnoise » Sat, 11. Feb 17, 06:17

I think Fighters with missiles arent bad, i just think that they lack in variety in terms of weaponry (which plays in lack of variety in fighter roles) but that is another topic.

I know improving their AI at fighting capital ships (add strafing/ hovering while destroying surface elements instead of flying straight towards it) would be hard and takes a long time.

So as a simple solution, i think number tweaking is feasible. Improve hull/shield of slow fighters like katana, and drop the price of all fighters by at least 50% (5mill for the drostan is just insane).

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Post by mr.WHO » Sat, 11. Feb 17, 09:57

If you have access to Ideas forums, I posted the the full combat craft rebalance (fighters included) - basically entire X-Rebirth ballance is Skunk-centric crap, thus everything else is out of ballance.

http://forum.egosoft.com/viewtopic.php?t=393402

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Post by Nikola515 » Sun, 12. Feb 17, 10:39

Only problem that i see with fighters in all X games is that they don't have major role in game. For example they cant auto fix (auto dock to shipyard/station to get fixed)and they require too much micromanaging to maintain them. Setting up of M1 in X3 was nightmare and especially when it comes managing them. This makes them expendable and hard to reuse without micromanaging... All though i would love to see different types of ship loadouts.... For example having light,medium and heavy Katanas ;)
Last edited by Nikola515 on Mon, 27. Feb 17, 20:30, edited 1 time in total.
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Post by RodentofDoom » Sun, 26. Feb 17, 00:54

The cap-ships designated as carriers need landing bays so they actually can be carriers

L-Sul ~20 spaces
H-Sul ~ 40 spaces
Arawn ~ 100 (2x 50) spaces


Being able to set a 'repair threshhold' that when reached a s/m ship pilot would automaically run off for repairs and then return to his assigned task, this would be nice as well (whilst semi automated, it has a time/cost component built in).

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Post by Denaut » Mon, 27. Feb 17, 13:25

I think the problem with manned fighters is that they really shouldn't exist in the game at all. Their role overlaps far too much with the concept of drones, and the game would be better off with a more sophisticated, well balanced, and content filled system for them instead.

Balance issues aside, larger drones could have similar sizes and stats with the current crop of fighters. Ideally they would also have similar visual variety. The current drone cargo system might need some reworking (different types/sizes of drone cargo for example), but by cutting "fighters" that time and energy can be better spent on a single game system with all its accompanying rules and AI.

More and better designed content for the drone system would also benefit the player as well. The current concept of the Skunk fails for 2 major reasons, 1) There is not enough well balanced drone content to support the "Skunk as drone carrier" concept and 2) The Skunk doesn't do anything while you are piloting drones.

I believe if the Skunk's drones felt more like piloting fighters with a larger array of specialized weapons and if the Skunk could continue to fly, carry out orders and defend itself (turrets?) while the player controlled drones the game would feel much more fluid and enjoyable in combat.

It is primarily a design issue, as are many fundamental problems with the game.

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Post by Lord Crc » Mon, 27. Feb 17, 23:03

Denaut wrote:I think the problem with manned fighters is that they really shouldn't exist in the game at all. Their role overlaps far too much with the concept of drones, and the game would be better off with a more sophisticated, well balanced, and content filled system for them instead.
My thoughts exactly. Drop fighters, focus on drones and small cap ships to fill the void instead.

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Post by vadiolive » Tue, 28. Feb 17, 00:01

Based : in Camulos Vanguard (S) at http://roguey.co.uk/xrebirth/ships/camulos-vanguard/

If increase around shield/armor in 25x in all S/M ship dont need change anymore anything

Since if record as well if buy this in shipyard cost me around 1M

Around 20x to 40x guess self balanced based em cost

Plus be carrier or automatic repair stuffs since dont have Enginner inside
Mega plus : Military ship have jumpdrive or carrier

Another thing make X / XL ships more expensive to buy , not produce (after all if you buy shipyard be massive profitable but its not vanilla anyway)

I test in combat with MICT/MOCT and CWIR several times is amazing cool battles , less ramships compare X/XL ships

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Post by Nanook » Tue, 28. Feb 17, 20:19

Lord Crc wrote:
Denaut wrote:I think the problem with manned fighters is that they really shouldn't exist in the game at all. Their role overlaps far too much with the concept of drones, and the game would be better off with a more sophisticated, well balanced, and content filled system for them instead.
My thoughts exactly. Drop fighters, focus on drones and small cap ships to fill the void instead.
I completely disagree. First, it's not going to happen in Rebirth. Second, if fighters were dropped, the player won't have the ability to fly them in the next game. So it's a lose-lose situation you propose.
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Post by Denaut » Wed, 1. Mar 17, 13:54

Nanook wrote:I completely disagree. First, it's not going to happen in Rebirth. Second, if fighters were dropped, the player won't have the ability to fly them in the next game. So it's a lose-lose situation you propose.
There is a deep and pointless overlap between the 2 disparate gameplay concepts. They both occupy the same role in the game space as small, fast, agile semi-permanent but slightly disposable damage delivery vectors. The fact that fighters occupy exactly the same role as drones but require significantly more thought and micromanagement for very little gain clearly indicates that the game would be better served by a drone overhaul.

For Rebirth you wouldn't necessarily remove fighters (they are already in after all) but you could overhaul and add content to the drone system to make it robust and useful effectively replacing fighters for the player. At that point they would be an "if you want to" part of the game but the new drone system would effectively replace them in gameplay terms.

This would also obviate the need for Egosoft to introduce fighter carriers into the game, which would likely be a larger and more difficult project. Since the tech/AI for handling drone "docking" and deployment already exists, creating another duplicate system is a waste of resources. Those resources are better spent on improving the existing system.


As for the new game, that is something entirely different, but I think the new game would also be better served by consolidating and improving overlapping gameplay concepts. This entails examining the roles that each type of spacecraft serves and consolidating the redundant elements. This allows them to use resources making fewer systems better rather than many systems none of which are fully fleshed out. A good candidate for this is removing fighters to expand drones and corvettes into any gaps that may produce. Player's being able to fly other ships has little to nothing to do with this suggestions, although I personally I one of the best ideas rebirth had was to create a special "player" ship type, they just executed the idea terribly.

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Post by UniTrader » Wed, 1. Mar 17, 16:41

i also wouldnt drop fighters, but simplify their management instead. also they should be more distinct from drones.


Drones should be extremely maneuverable and have high accel (enough that humans are unable to endure it), basically the light Fighters role - but they also should be plain stupid - when given an order they will perform it until done and then just idle or return, but never make any descisions (as required per anti-agi-law).

Fighters on the other hand should be given the Bomber/heavy fighters role, less speed and maneuverability but at least endurable by humans. Also they can make descisions and give orders to a wing of drones (its size depends on Pilot Skill). Also there should be few Pilots with awesome abilities when you have trained them for a long time.


Also management of Pilots should be simpler - except for the aforementioned Elite Pilots make them more like the faceless masses of Marines instead of managing every single of them.
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Post by Sparky Sparkycorp » Wed, 1. Mar 17, 16:52

Alternatively, or as a third class, stick the Fighter Pilots on the their commanding Capital or Station, and have them remotely piloting their Fighter from there. Supports a distinction from Drones, and the gameplay around acquiring and training Pilots; reduces the loss of said Pilots.

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Post by Nanook » Wed, 1. Mar 17, 17:58

Or as a fourth class, leave Rebirth's fighters and drones as they are and get on with the next game. Return fighters to what they were in previous games. IMO, that was more fun, by far.
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Post by birdtable » Wed, 1. Mar 17, 18:04

Fighters in previous X games were sheep to be shorn for their scrap value unless you required the Xenon L then you had to cajole it with loving kisses till it surrendered.

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Post by Nanook » Wed, 1. Mar 17, 20:40

And they're better now? :roll: Personally, I found the fighters in TC and AP much more enjoyable to fly with and against. They felt much more substantial, not like a bunch of mosquitoes buzzing around and being annoying.

Give the X3 fighters a better AI is all that's really needed. And let the player capture and fly them, rather than just blow them up or sell those that bail as in the current game.
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Post by birdtable » Wed, 1. Mar 17, 20:54

Cannot disagree, scary moments in the early game when a squadron appeared between you and your target destination.... genuine sweaty palm moments, especially if they were part of a fleet,,, sadly lost.

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Post by Nanook » Wed, 1. Mar 17, 20:58

If we whine enough, maybe what was lost can be found again. :rant: :mrgreen:
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Post by Denaut » Thu, 2. Mar 17, 14:48

Fighters in previous X game (or X3 at least) were drones! They were small, fast attack craft, could dock with other ships, and didn't require a pilot. In fact even capital ships were "drones" since they didn't require a crew and their capabilities were controlled by software.

In user interaction terms there was only 1 type of ship in X3. Ships had varied stats, models, and hard points but these are only data differences and not major differences in the system and interaction design.

In X:Rebirth there are 4 types of "ship", Player, Capital, Fighter, and Drone. This is due to the fact that there are structural, systemic, and interaction differences between the different types. The problem with Rebirth is not that there are too few ship types, but that there are too many.

It is the introduction of the crew concept that radically altered how ship types must be thought about. In X:Rebirth, Egosoft massively increased the micromanagement cost of any ship that requires a crew. For capital ships the time cost of crewing them in small in comparison to their cost and longevity, but for fighters it is not even remotely close. Added to this is further burden that they MUST be repaired at a shipyard (no engineer).

They are also not very useful in a fleet with ships capable of jumping. Since Fighters can neither dock nor fast travel (boost, jump) a mixed fleet given orders to go somewhere of any meaningful distance will be split up for some time until the fighters can travel the intervening distance. Drones do not suffer from this limitation as their docking capability allows them to travel with any capital ship they are assigned.

The shortest path to adding useful "fighters" to rebirth is an expansion and re-balance of the drone system. They are already better in almost every way, they just need more content and stat/cost modifications to match fighters. Stats are easy to change or add, systems/features are not. Additionally, if the new drones could be carried and used by the player ship they would also be flyable by the player. Many birds with one stone, this is clearly the solution for Rebirth if anything is to be done about the problem.

Improvements in AI aren't relevant to this as any improvement in "fighter" AI is perfectly relevant to drones and vice versa, AI is an independent logical construct from the ship type it is attached to.

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Post by Nanook » Thu, 2. Mar 17, 19:44

Denaut wrote:...
Improvements in AI aren't relevant to this as any improvement in "fighter" AI is perfectly relevant to drones and vice versa, AI is an independent logical construct from the ship type it is attached to.
No, it's not. Fighter AI and drone AI should be logically different to accomodate their different capabilities and mechanics. Fighters require pilots, so any fighter AI needs be dependent on a pilot's capabilities, as well as have the necessary logic to get repaired and rearmed with missiles.

Drone AI needs none of that. It just needs a simple attack logic. Drones are expendables, like missiles. They also 'self-repair' when they dock, unlike fighters.

In short, fighter and drone AI should be very different. The fact that they appear so similar now is something that needs to be addressed. And as I said above, I highly doubt it will occur in Rebirth, since this game is nearing the end of its development life. Major AI changes are really only relevant to the next game.
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Post by mr.WHO » Thu, 2. Mar 17, 20:50

The fact that fighters is manned would distinct it from drone AI that figher pilot would be more keen to retreat or run away, while drone AI would mindlessly follow coded routine.

If I remember X-Rebirth NPC stats one of them is "morale" - this would affect pilot behaviour.


Speaking to people who would want to replace fighters with drones:
- the drone logic in vanilla X-Rebirth was retarded - ship launch 4-5 drones, wait when they are destroyed, then launch next 4-5 repeant until run out of drones.
That is not fun at all.


However I do agree that currently drones and fighters overlap too much and should be differentiate in that way so both of them would be useful.

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