[WIP] X Rebirth: The New Frontier

[zuthen]

hey all! thank you so much marvin and blackrain! just got back into x rebirth and remembered this gem. the game was already un playable for me without CWIR, this takes it even further. cant remember what all it is compatible with though, but if i remember correctly most of the stuff i used to use this mod has anyway. cant remember if the ency mod was compatible or not though, or if NF had its own trader. if not which would you recommend as most compatible with this mod? thanks again for your time and mod, your work is VERY much appreciated, in fact without it i probably would not have even bothered re installing.

[alexalsp]

russian lng

https://drive.google.com/file/d/14-Xfiq ... sp=sharing

[BlackRain]

Since we have a great ship builder associated with this mod is there any way we can make requests? I've been looking for a physically small, very fast L-class ship that can be used as a combo light freighter, scout, and light warship. The "Loki" from lost sectors fits the bill exactly, but it is really rare and a bit ugly.

There are already ships like this in the mod, it is the Sennin line which I made for the pirates. There are a few different variants of them that use different weapons.

I suppose. The Sennin's are decent and I use them quite a bit, they're just a bit bulky and dull.

Well, those are the smallest L ships I think. I modified some other ships which might be comparable but I don't even remember all the ships I made honestly haha

[Warnoise]

Is there a possibility to use vanilla fight ai with this mod? (The mod is pretty fun now but the ai man....)

Edit: I noticed the mod got updated 2 days ago. What kind of changes?

Is it ok if i install it and start a new game with it?

[Vectorial1024]

Ah, a few questions/suggestions

• The current implementation of turret consumption seems a little bit unconventional. Are we allowed to suggest improvements on that?
• [Edit 1: removed]
• I have seen some zones "suddenly flipping to Xenon" along with the stations inside them flipping to Xenon too. I have also seen stations turning neutral after their hull got pushed below a certain value. Could the mechanics related to station attack and capturing be explained a bit?

[zuthen]

@warnoise i would start a new game. anytime i update/install mods i always start a new game. saves can be very buggy when it comes to modding in general.

[Warnoise]

By the way when i try to download the latest version it says "50: Failure"

[captainradish]

How about a energy/container transport based on the Boann? It's an awesome looking ship that I barely use as gas miner's aren't all that useful to me.

In addition, the Fedhelm and Hermod would also be excellent as C/E freighters. They all have good looks, but are underappreciated.

[Marvin Martian]

I have seen some zones "suddenly flipping to Xenon" along with the stations inside them flipping to Xenon too. I have also seen stations turning neutral after their hull got pushed below a certain value. Could the mechanics related to station attack and capturing be explained a bit?

Explode->Weck->GarbageCollection isn't working well at Stations it seems, so the way is ...
set for "wreck state" station to neutral, so ships may stop fighting,
after a while buildspot stations will deleted, nonBuildspot are required for set to new Zone owner (this is dealed based on some rules like exisiting and used stations, or neighbor-zones)

The current implementation of turret consumption seems a little bit unconventional. Are we allowed to suggest improvements on that?

Feel free, the idea is to consume the turrets, simple remove production isn't possible, because they are still required at CV and some SY from additional spaces or new variants of SY
it may also possible to recycle them at a dedicated station, but this was the more easy way - in case they are required they should buyable anymore

EDIT:
about your Pullrequest
i didn't see the benefit of your new ware "usp_weaponcomponents_standard" as new weaponpart, usp_production isn't in use at the buildmodules all over the galaxy, so it doesn't make sense to have another ware
in the ship/station-buildmodules you can use only one method and this is still changed from $whatever$ to "universalparts", so usp_production is not possible to use at building something - you can change all weapon/turret-variations to your new ware, but this solve not the problem in case the turret is required it isn't available like at default/omicron/albion-method buildmodules - further more the problem of unused weapons&turrets is still here - so without more code/exlaining whats your idea behind it make no sense to use atm (IMO)

[Vectorial1024]

EDIT:
about your Pullrequest
i didn't see the benefit of your new ware "usp_weaponcomponents_standard" as new weaponpart, usp_production isn't in use at the buildmodules all over the galaxy, so it doesn't make sense to have another ware
in the ship/station-buildmodules you can use only one method and this is still changed from $whatever$ to "universalparts", so usp_production is not possible to use at building something - you can change all weapon/turret-variations to your new ware, but this solve not the problem in case the turret is required it isn't available like at default/omicron/albion-method buildmodules - further more the problem of unused weapons&turrets is still here - so without more code/exlaining whats your idea behind it make no sense to use atm (IMO)

Sorry for my late reply; I was away for a short trip.

I will elaborate my idea in detail below.

[Vectorial1024]

Alright, here we go:

Definitions

• Turret wares: the 6 turrets (HIT/MA Turret, Plasma/MA Turret, V Launcher, Hailstorm/MA, Plasma/JET, and Astrobee Launcher) in the form of container wares
• The Universe: refers to Albion, DeVries, Omicron Lyrae, and Maelstrom only.

Observation
Turret wares are sold at their minimum price, but no one buys them. Shipyards does not buy the turret wares, but buys Ship Parts (Weapons) instead.

Problem
In the Universe, shipyards use Ship Parts (Weapons) to build turret surface elements. The turret wares are not needed anymore, but are still produced at Turret Forges.

Proposed Solution
I think repurposing the Turret Forge modules to produce something else would be most suitable.

Designing new stations that does not have the Turret Forge modules would be too much work, and a waste of vanilla-prepared resources. This method should not be used.

The current way to handle the problem is to produce Ship Parts (Weapons) by consuming turret wares either as primary or secondary resources. While this method solves the problem of turret wares piling up because no one wants them, it is rather inefficient: several types of turret wares are required to begin production of Ship Parts (Weapons) which means the production of Ship Parts (Weapons) cannot start right away. (The turrets are still produced in hourly cycles at Turret Forge modules.)

This mod is about producing things that can be used universally. Repurposing Turret Forge modules to produce Weapon Parts (Standard) and Weapon Parts (Advanced) would be most suitable.

About Weapon Parts
Weapon Parts are produced from Bio-Optic Wiring/Plasma Pumps, Energy Cells, Fusion Reactors, and RMP, just like how all the turret wares are produced. The amount of resources required to produce Weapon Parts are carefully balanced to approximate the amount of resources required to produce the individual turret wares.

The amount of Weapon Parts produced and the price of Weapon Parts are balanced so that the profits of running Turret Forge modules stays approximately the same as before.

Weapon Parts would be produced at Turret Forge modules, and used primarily at shipyards. Also, if you feel like it, Weapon Parts can also be used to produce drones; drones would need "components of weapons" to make their guns.

Standard and Advanced WP
Turrets in vanilla game can actually be classified into two categories: the Standard turrets (the HIT/MA, the Plasma/MA, and the V), and the Advanced turrets (the Hailstorm/MA, the Plasma/JET, and the Astrobee). AFAIK, vanilla stations that produce turret wares should have two physical locations selling turret wares, one selling the Standard ones, the other the Advanced ones.

In this perspective, Standard and Advanced turrets appear to exist equally. It would not be good if all the produced Weapon Parts in Turret Forge modules went to only one side (e.g. to make HIT/MA surface elements).

Also, as I analyzed the numbers, Standard and Advanced turrets use different sets of numbers in their required amount of resources. It would not be good if Weapon Parts make Standard turrets worth more, or the other way around.

WP (Standard) would therefore be used to make the Standard turrets, while WP (Advanced) would be used to make the Advanced turrets.

Since there would be two types of Weapon Parts, Turret Forge modules would produce them in an hourly cycle, just like producing the turret wares. This 2-ware cycle should be much more robust and reliable than the 6-ware cycle before.

How about some problems?
Weapon Parts is not in use: this proposed change is a bit drastic, so I don't want to just simply overwrite existing code without carefully planning how to transition to new code. When everything is ready, the proposed code will use the mod code.
Turret wares in transit/in station storage becoming useless when Weapon Parts are used: MD scripts should do it.
Turret wares required to build stations, but is not available: I don't have an answer for that, but when I look at the xml files for ship and station buildmodules, they look structurally similar - both belong to the same class="buildmodule". So perhaps setting macro/properties/build[@method='asdf'] for station buildmodules might work. But this would be out of scope for Weapon Parts discussion (I think)

Conclusion
{Weapon Parts (Standard) and Weapon Parts (Advanced) --> actual turrets} should work better than {turret wares --> Ship Parts (Weapons) --> actual turrets}, and thus, should be implemented.

EDIT: By kicking Ship Parts (Weapons) out of circulation, Ship Parts production is increased (there are modules that produce SP and SP(W) using the hourly cycle). This should also alleviate the complaints of "not enough Ship parts" XD

[Marvin Martian]

so far i already had a clue whats your intention, but i think you miss a couple of points i wrote above already and that also your description do not take care:
HIT/MA Turret, Plasma/MA Turret, V Launcher are required on Station building for sure, so can't remove them without screw all up

there is no "Albion, DeVries, Omicron Lyrae, and Maelstrom only" Universe, the Mod should deal with different situations and configurations, like you can see in the Readme there are still some Areas without Unipart use, here same stationtypes work with reqirement of classic turrets

finally your idea is only to replace Shippart(weapon) with another ware based on turretproduction - your implementation but finally can't work yet (you can't use two builingmethods same time, so shipbuilding won't take care of your ware) - the alternitive would to produce Shippart(weapon) on turret factory directly, but that's also won't solve the problem the turrets will required in some situations - my idea is to build in an additional step Shippart(weapon) with use of the turrets, so overproduction should selled at station and as far i assume, the production will skip productioncycles ware can't stored so there should no further conflict

[Vectorial1024]

...
HIT/MA Turret, Plasma/MA Turret, V Launcher are required on Station building for sure, so can't remove them without screw all up
...

Ahhhh, this is where things get very exciting!!! Presenting my proof-of-concept mod: https://www.nexusmods.com/xrebirth/mods/530/

We can make station construction not require the turret wares... station component construction is similar to {turret wares --> turret surface elements} all along!!!

This should answer your inquiry about turret surface elements still requiring turret wares. This should also show us the way to implement Station Parts.

...
there is no "Albion, DeVries, Omicron Lyrae, and Maelstrom only" Universe, the Mod should deal with different situations and configurations, like you can see in the Readme there are still some Areas without Unipart use, here same stationtypes work with reqirement of classic turrets
...

I think the way should be that this mod adds in a new way of producing stuff, parallel to other mods that might use the vanilla way to produce stuff, just like Albion and Omicron Lyrae producing some wares differently but parallel to each other.

...
finally your idea is only to replace Shippart(weapon) with another ware based on turretproduction - your implementation but finally can't work yet (you can't use two builingmethods same time, so shipbuilding won't take care of your ware)...

This I should apologize. I must have created quite a lot of confusion with my pull request... I closed my pull request just now. I will clean things up a bit and open a new one.

the alternitive would to produce Shippart(weapon) on turret factory directly, but that's also won't solve the problem the turrets will required in some situations - my idea is to build in an additional step Shippart(weapon) with use of the turrets, so overproduction should selled at station and as far i assume, the production will skip productioncycles ware can't stored so there should no further conflict

Personally, I feel that if turret wares and Ship Parts (Weapons) are used together, it's a bit redundant. Both can be used to make turrets - why not integrate them into one thing?

Also, worst case is that all turret wares are used to make Ship Parts (Weapons), and shipyards that do not use Uniparts do not get any turret wares. By separating the production tree (e.g., turret factory in Unipart places produces Ship Parts (Weapons) or Weapon Parts, and turret factory in non-Unipart places produces turret wares), we should be good to go.
(I mean, overproduction is sometimes unavoidable. It could be an incentive for others to expand - e.g. excess production of Water and Energy Cells can encourage increased production of Wheat due to the low production costs.)

We can use a one-time MD script to convert turret wares to Ship Parts (Weapons)/Weapon Parts, or we simply ask players to restart the game using new values. After all, this mod is still in development, so major changes like this one should be expected.

[Marvin Martian]

meh, your "proof-of-concept" is same stuff i still did all over with shippart/_comp - that would be also possible with StationParts [in first plans it was intendet, but this is too much work, with same problems like ship now have]

you can also simply station-upgrades rewrite the "default"-method from turretXY to other $ware you like, similar at shipupgrades - but then you have a lack of parts in areas no shippart is ever seen before

i finally understand your intention, but i still don't see benefit of them, instead i think it will make other problems - best way was station would accept SP(Weapon) as alternitive to classic turrets, but that won't happend without much cheaty-scripting

maybe new balanced turret production would be more successfull (lower quantity)

[Vectorial1024]

meh, your "proof-of-concept" is same stuff i still did all over with shippart/_comp - that would be also possible with StationParts [in first plans it was intendet, but this is too much work, with same problems like ship now have]

you can also simply station-upgrades rewrite the "default"-method from turretXY to other $ware you like, similar at shipupgrades - but then you have a lack of parts in areas no shippart is ever seen before

i finally understand your intention, but i still don't see benefit of them, instead i think it will make other problems - best way was station would accept SP(Weapon) as alternitive to classic turrets, but that won't happend without much cheaty-scripting

maybe new balanced turret production would be more successfull (lower quantity)

New discovery! If you specifiy a buildmethod at your buildmodule but you don't have such production method for your wares/surface elements, the game falls back to default.

I tested this by editing my "proof-of-concept mod". The Albion station buildmodule (originally "albion" method in the mod) got changed to require "devries" method. And now the BoFu Star Complex requires Plasma Pumps, as in the default method.

Implementing Ship Parts (Weapons) or Weapon Parts for station is indeed possible. We just have to add something like <build method="usp_prod"/> to the station buildmodules, and volia, stations will require Ship Parts (Weapons)/Weapon Parts to build turrets. [EDIT: As to station components requiring the "usp_prod" method to be produced, we can ignore that. As a result, since that method does not exist for them, the game will just fall back to "default", using the Energy Cells, RMP, etc. Great!]

It should be easy work for us to add in the feature of stations requiring the universal wares.

[Marvin Martian]

New discovery! If you specifiy a buildmethod at your buildmodule but you don't have such production method for your wares/surface elements, the game falls back to default.

I tested this by editing my "proof-of-concept mod". The Albion station buildmodule (originally "albion" method in the mod) got changed to require "devries" method. And now the BoFu Star Complex requires Plasma Pumps, as in the default method.

Implementing Ship Parts (Weapons) or Weapon Parts for station is indeed possible. We just have to add something like <build method="usp_prod"/> to the station buildmodules, and volia, stations will require Ship Parts (Weapons)/Weapon Parts to build turrets. [EDIT: As to station components requiring the "usp_prod" method to be produced, we can ignore that. As a result, since that method does not exist for them, the game will just fall back to "default", using the Energy Cells, RMP, etc. Great!]

It should be easy work for us to add in the feature of stations requiring the universal wares.

new -- woohoo nice that you notice this finally too .. but .. i don't say different about the situation ... the problem is not to get the buildmethod to a builder(CV), the problem is, you need to add at each part in the warelist the $whatever$-Buildmethod entry - otherwise it will use default like you understand meanwhile

the big work is now to add the buildmethod entry (calculated for the actual costs) to each little stationpart (converted in Ship- better Stationparts), also for mod-station-parts and so on -- THATS why i say it is not possible (or realistic to do)

[Vectorial1024]

new -- woohoo nice that you notice this finally too .. but .. i don't say different about the situation ... the problem is not to get the buildmethod to a builder(CV), the problem is, you need to add at each part in the warelist the $whatever$-Buildmethod entry - otherwise it will use default like you understand meanwhile

the big work is now to add the buildmethod entry (calculated for the actual costs) to each little stationpart (converted in Ship- better Stationparts), also for mod-station-parts and so on -- THATS why i say it is not possible (or realistic to do)

Ah I see. Yes, it would be too much work to add new buildmethods to each of the different station parts... let's drop the idea of Station Parts for now.

But still, if we add the <build method="universalparts"/> to the CVs, we will be able to fully use the Ship Parts (Weapons) already available, as if in building ships.

I wasn't looking close enough to how Ship Parts (Weapons) are produced last time. I think adding a consumption step of turret wares at Turret Forge modules is great, just that I am afraid station managers would somehow sell the unprocessed turret wares away...
That's why I think we should skip the turrets and directly produce Ship Parts (Weapons) instead.

BTW, I am now working on the md scripts regarding station destruction to see if I can help fix some bugs.

EDIT: Fixed typo of Ship Parts (Weapons)

[Marvin Martian]

instead of patching CV you may also simply replace default ware for turret upgrades - but again, this is not the way i like to go, because this effect also vanilla spaces with classic productions

I'm inclined to redesign Shippart-Production-Stations to dedicated lines of Shippart, Shippart (weapons) and Recycle Turrets with .. here i fluctuate between use directly Ship Parts (Weapons) as secondary ressource for shipparts and assemble ShipParts with "Weapon"-Parts as dedicated step too

[Vectorial1024]

There is one thing I would like to know: is this mod supposed to be a total overhaul of XRB in many ways? That means this mod would change the game so much that incompatibility is expected and would pop up very frequently.

If we are not expecting this mod to play well with other mods, we can care less about other mods, and focus on our objectives etc.

Just go for it.

[Marvin Martian]

I try to have less compatibility issues as possible, so other mods may work in case