Will we be able to navigate large capital ships by ourselves in X4?

This forum is the ideal place for all discussion relating to X4. You will also find additional information from developers here.

Moderator: Moderators for English X Forum

UniTrader
Moderator (Script&Mod)
Moderator (Script&Mod)
Posts: 14571
Joined: Sun, 20. Nov 05, 22:45
x4

Post by UniTrader » Mon, 22. May 17, 17:39

Slashman wrote:
Ketraar wrote:
AI is crucial, unlike pilotable cap ships, as its core to ANY play style, this should be simple to understand.

MFG

Ketraar
This is indeed the bottom line. My only true worries are that I've heard Bernd state with absolute confidence that they had fixed the AI pathing issues before Rebirth launched.

I really don't want to have to wait for X5/XR3 to maybe get a good flight AI. I'm getting on in years...
i still wonder where people get the idea there was anything fixed from X3 to XR - they have no technical relation to each other since XR is a rewrite from scratch.

also you should adjust your scale a bit.. there isnt just a "fixed pathing" switch with the States fixed (white) and not fixed (black), but many, many levels of grey between X3 and perfect pathing.. in XR Big Ships can at least circumnavigate a station exactly in a straigth path to their destination*, and small Ships even fly through the Geometry of it. In X3 they would just fly back and forth till the Station isnt blocking their way anymore.

*it my "fail" if a second Station is in their circumnavigating path
if not stated otherwise everything i post is licensed under WTFPL

Ich mache keine S&M-Auftragsarbeiten, aber wenn es fragen gibt wie man etwas umsetzen kann helfe ich gerne weiter ;)

I wont do Script&Mod Request work, but if there are questions how to do something i will GLaDly help ;)

Slashman
Posts: 2514
Joined: Tue, 12. Oct 10, 03:31
x4

Post by Slashman » Mon, 22. May 17, 17:56

UniTrader wrote: i still wonder where people get the idea there was anything fixed from X3 to XR - they have no technical relation to each other since XR is a rewrite from scratch.
Those weren't my words. Also, one can have a new game/engine while referencing problems that a previous game presented if they are similar enough. One could easily view the new game/engine in terms of things which are addressed or 'fixed' versus the old one.
If you want a different perspective, stand on your head.

User avatar
Ketraar
EGOSOFT
EGOSOFT
Posts: 11741
Joined: Fri, 21. May 04, 17:15
x4

Post by Ketraar » Mon, 22. May 17, 18:00

Slashman wrote:My only true worries are that I've heard Bernd state with absolute confidence that they had fixed the AI pathing issues before Rebirth launched.
This again. Can we have a link to that info?

Also still waiting on examples for comparison as to what constitutes "fixed" or "good" AI. As it might vary in scope and function depending on who you ask. True AI is not really possible, I think we agree, so there are limitations to be expected, thus a "working" AI is as flavoured as "give me X4" or pizza.

MFG

Ketraar

User avatar
Nikola515
Posts: 3187
Joined: Fri, 4. May 12, 07:40
x4

Post by Nikola515 » Mon, 22. May 17, 19:00

Ketraar wrote:You keep missing the point and frankly it starts too look like you do it on purpose. All the stuff about trust also only serves to flourish the amount of letters your post has, since it does not have anything to do with the point that was being made. You assume they cant do a good AI, but then imply they will provide good pilotable ships experience, based on thin air, just to try and validate your, frankly flawed reasoning.

AI is crucial, unlike pilotable cap ships, as its core to ANY play style, this should be simple to understand.

MFG

Ketraar

Actually i don't think i can take you seriously anymore.... You seem to think that your point is only valid and that nobody else maters. I'm not sure if you really think that or you are simply sucking up to ego do to your title :roll: Well anyway good luck dreaming about your perfect game that will probably end up like XR. As for record I do agree with you about AI but I just don't want to put my fate on it for obvious reasons . For those who wont to pilot their ships for what ever reason it should be in game just like in X3 (that is reason why I started playing X3). You might think you know what is better for me but I don't care because I know how I want to play my game. Egosoft should do what they do best and build game that is worth calling X4 in my opinion. X4 should be extension of X3 not XR. If they change name to something else I wouldn't care what they do (because I wouldn't bother buying it).
It's not world hunger because we can't feed poor,it's because there will never be enough to feed the rich .....

Lord Crc
Posts: 529
Joined: Sun, 29. Jan 12, 13:28
x4

Post by Lord Crc » Mon, 22. May 17, 19:09

Ketraar wrote:Also still waiting on examples for comparison as to what constitutes "fixed" or "good" AI.
With regards to pathing, X Rebirth does the absolute bare minimum for the game to function.

Fixed pathing for me would be obstacle avoidance instead of just collision avoidance, that is planning to go around instead of planning to go through then deal with the collisions as they happen. L-class ships also have some pathing bugs which needs to be ironed out, they often fly the weirdest routes.

Good pathing would anticipate moving obstacles, as well as more tactical movement during combat (threat assessment, orientation for maximizing attack etc).

UniTrader
Moderator (Script&Mod)
Moderator (Script&Mod)
Posts: 14571
Joined: Sun, 20. Nov 05, 22:45
x4

Post by UniTrader » Mon, 22. May 17, 19:26

Lord Crc wrote: Fixed pathing for me would be obstacle avoidance instead of just collision avoidance, that is planning to go around instead of planning to go through then deal with the collisions as they happen. L-class ships also have some pathing bugs which needs to be ironed out, they often fly the weirdest routes.
In fact they do both.. the Former is used to circumnavigate Static Objects, and sometimes has difficulties with 2 Stations too close to each other (the path which circumnavigates the first station leads too close to the second Station, so more waypoints are added, which are closer to the first one again resulting in a bit zigzagging), but ego certainly is on the right track with that.
For Moving Objects the latter is used and, opposed to X3, Ships can and will even Strafe a bit to avoid the other Object. often they have to rotate entirely though..
Lord Crc wrote:Good pathing would anticipate moving obstacles,
come back again when you have a handheld quantum computer...
if not stated otherwise everything i post is licensed under WTFPL

Ich mache keine S&M-Auftragsarbeiten, aber wenn es fragen gibt wie man etwas umsetzen kann helfe ich gerne weiter ;)

I wont do Script&Mod Request work, but if there are questions how to do something i will GLaDly help ;)

User avatar
Ketraar
EGOSOFT
EGOSOFT
Posts: 11741
Joined: Fri, 21. May 04, 17:15
x4

Post by Ketraar » Mon, 22. May 17, 19:27

@Nikola515
You probably ran out of arguments it seems, all I can read is noise and failed attempts to insult me, by projecting your own insecurities, since I dont suck up to anyone. But its not really surprising as you clearly are incapable of basic rules of debate, here a hint
You seem to think that your point is only valid and that nobody else maters.
When arguing a position, the person making the argument, usually thinks they are right. Its the other persons "job" in that debate to counter that argument, usually using additional information or alternative perspective/insight/details, often based on facts (its a dying trend I know) or just opinion. Simple really.
Lord Crc wrote:Fixed pathing for me would be obstacle avoidance instead of just collision avoidance, that is planning to go around instead of planning to go through then deal with the collisions as they happen. L-class ships also have some pathing bugs which needs to be ironed out, they often fly the weirdest routes.

Good pathing would anticipate moving obstacles, as well as more tactical movement during combat (threat assessment, orientation for maximizing attack etc).
I was not clear, the idea is not to state what we would want it to do, we probably already agree what we wish it to perform. Much like with piloting cap ships, we wish it all. The question is, what is doable and someone suggested it to be "easy" and possible, then failed to provide existing examples of it. As with many things, there are limits to what can be done in this universe of finite resources.

MFG

Ketraar

User avatar
Nikola515
Posts: 3187
Joined: Fri, 4. May 12, 07:40
x4

Post by Nikola515 » Mon, 22. May 17, 19:36

Ketraar wrote:I dont suck up to anyone.
Whatever you say :P
It's not world hunger because we can't feed poor,it's because there will never be enough to feed the rich .....

Lord Crc
Posts: 529
Joined: Sun, 29. Jan 12, 13:28
x4

Post by Lord Crc » Mon, 22. May 17, 19:38

UniTrader wrote:In fact they do both..
I've yet to observe that in XRebirth... I routinely see capships and fighters trying to blast straight through stations. It's clear the pathing is line-of-sight based with collision avoidance, rather than proper obstacle avoidance.

CBJ
EGOSOFT
EGOSOFT
Posts: 51740
Joined: Tue, 29. Apr 03, 00:56
x4

Post by CBJ » Mon, 22. May 17, 19:47

Enough of the personal bickering. This is not the first time some people have been warned about this. Discuss the subject in hand, not each other, or this thread will be locked.

Lord Crc
Posts: 529
Joined: Sun, 29. Jan 12, 13:28
x4

Post by Lord Crc » Mon, 22. May 17, 19:55

Ketraar wrote:The question is, what is doable and someone suggested it to be "easy" and possible, then failed to provide existing examples of it. As with many things, there are limits to what can be done in this universe of finite resources.
For collision avoidance around stations, I don't see why using A* with grids around the stations wouldn't work. The A* algorithm is text-book stuff with plenty of available libraries around for "plug and play". For capships it could use coarse-grained grids for the entire zone, for smaller ships it could use line-of-sight until it intersects the extended bounding sphere of the station (bounding sphere + some fixed radius), then switch to a per-station finer-grained grid. Alternatively just project the line-of-sight path onto an oriented bounding ellipse of the station and have the ships follow that.

Quite possible there are better and smarter ways, after all I'm not a game programmer.

UniTrader
Moderator (Script&Mod)
Moderator (Script&Mod)
Posts: 14571
Joined: Sun, 20. Nov 05, 22:45
x4

Post by UniTrader » Mon, 22. May 17, 19:55

Lord Crc wrote:
UniTrader wrote:In fact they do both..
I've yet to observe that in XRebirth... I routinely see capships and fighters trying to blast straight through stations. It's clear the pathing is line-of-sight based with collision avoidance, rather than proper obstacle avoidance.
then our Observations dont match. Not sure about your Observation methods, but had usually dotted the Path the Ship travelled with intangible Objects (placing one object every few seconds on the Ships current Position), and specifically marked the points where the <event_object_arrived_at_waypoint/> is triggered. Usually results in Dots like on a Spline Curve which connects aforementoined waypoints (and these waypoints are placed in such a way that they move the path outside the bounding Box of a Station, or are the final waypoint set in the Navscript itself), except Places where another Ship was nearby - at these places there is a Dent in the Curve


PS forgot to mention: i refer to Capship Movement only. didnt look into small Ships yet, and probably wont for a while.
if not stated otherwise everything i post is licensed under WTFPL

Ich mache keine S&M-Auftragsarbeiten, aber wenn es fragen gibt wie man etwas umsetzen kann helfe ich gerne weiter ;)

I wont do Script&Mod Request work, but if there are questions how to do something i will GLaDly help ;)

Lord Crc
Posts: 529
Joined: Sun, 29. Jan 12, 13:28
x4

Post by Lord Crc » Mon, 22. May 17, 20:20

UniTrader wrote:PS forgot to mention: i refer to Capship Movement only. didnt look into small Ships yet, and probably wont for a while.
Fair enough, I was a bit inaccurate in my initial post, pathing in XR really winds me up :evil: :roll:

Like you say, capships seem to do simple deformation of a line-of-sight path. This is ok for simple obstacles like a single station with trivial geometry. Not sure if it's just bad bounding boxes or what, but it does manage to do silly stuff with certain stations at times. And it doesn't work well in more complex zones, for example asteroids are just completely neglected.

Smaller ships seems to do no such thing at all, instead relying purely on collision avoidance (once something is immediately in front of the ship, station or otherwise).

User avatar
mr.WHO
Posts: 8547
Joined: Thu, 12. Oct 06, 17:19
x4

Post by mr.WHO » Tue, 23. May 17, 17:27

Personally I'm content with X-Rebirth pathfinding and colision avoidance with the exeption of asteroid fields and really exotic asteroid like objects (big asteroid/old mines in DeVries, or "Spire like" asteroids in Torride).

Boosting between zone is also god enough with the exeption of Torride where it's often really bizzare - e.g. shp has free linear route to destination, but it choose to boost along some "invisible boosting routes" instead(probably hardcoded into Torride).

UniTrader
Moderator (Script&Mod)
Moderator (Script&Mod)
Posts: 14571
Joined: Sun, 20. Nov 05, 22:45
x4

Post by UniTrader » Tue, 23. May 17, 18:06

mr.WHO wrote:(probably hardcoded into Torride).
not really hardcoded (this means its programmed in the exe or other binary goo), but yes there are some pre-defined paths there which are preffered over the shortest route - but its actually pretty easy to remove (or change) via Mod ;)
if not stated otherwise everything i post is licensed under WTFPL

Ich mache keine S&M-Auftragsarbeiten, aber wenn es fragen gibt wie man etwas umsetzen kann helfe ich gerne weiter ;)

I wont do Script&Mod Request work, but if there are questions how to do something i will GLaDly help ;)

Snafu_X3
Posts: 4472
Joined: Wed, 28. Jan 09, 15:14
x3tc

Post by Snafu_X3 » Wed, 24. May 17, 01:05

Mr.W have you tried the latest patch? Most of the issues you're still talking about have been addressed (some significantly, some not so)

Eg Balor/Succ fight AI now utilises them at long range (with appropriate targetting solutions); 'roid filed navigation has been addressed by allowing capships to break 'roids on their boost path (not ideal IMO, but it's a start), etc

Don't get me wrong: I'm not oblivious to obvious physical discrepancies (eg no collision dmg; ships getting stuck within structures etc), but at least (& at last!) those things are being addressed. I guess we'll have to wait for the next patch that hopefully focusses on management AI/UI..
Wiki X:R 1st Tit capping
Wiki X3:TC vanilla: Guide to generic missions, Guide to finding & capping Aran
Never played AP; all X3 advice is based on vanilla+bonus pack TC or before: AP has not changed much WRT general advice.

I know how to spell teladiuminumiumium, I just don't know when to stop!

Dom (Wiki Moderator) 8-) DxDiag

User avatar
Nikola515
Posts: 3187
Joined: Fri, 4. May 12, 07:40
x4

Post by Nikola515 » Wed, 24. May 17, 15:16

Better late than never I guess ;) All though there are mods that fixed that long time ago....
It's not world hunger because we can't feed poor,it's because there will never be enough to feed the rich .....

Dreez
Posts: 1167
Joined: Tue, 10. Mar 09, 12:50
x4

Post by Dreez » Wed, 24. May 17, 21:36

All i know for certain is that:

No capitalship piloting = no buying.
No free complexbuilding = no buying.

X3TC/AB had everything perfect, the only thing missing was planetary interaction in terms of resources.

It it were up to me, i would make X3:TC with X-Rebirth graphics+planetary interaction.

One can dream :) .
Of all the things i've lost, i miss my mind the most.

RodentofDoom
Posts: 406
Joined: Sat, 27. Feb 16, 09:37
x4

Post by RodentofDoom » Thu, 25. May 17, 19:37

Isn't the skunk technically an L class ship anyway ?

User avatar
mr.WHO
Posts: 8547
Joined: Thu, 12. Oct 06, 17:19
x4

Post by mr.WHO » Thu, 25. May 17, 19:40

Nope - it's between S and M size.

L size are Big freighters, Balor, Suls which are many times bigger than Skunk.

Locked

Return to “X4: Foundations”