Will we be able to navigate large capital ships by ourselves in X4?

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DuckTales
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Post by DuckTales » Tue, 8. Aug 17, 02:38

Hello everyone,

I am sorry but I kind of can't understand most of the discussion around here.

I played X:BTF, X2, X3 - Reunion, completely loved all of them. A bit about each one:

On X:BTF you had only one ship which you could upgrade and had most of the core concepts of the X-series (buying and issuing orders to another ships, buying stations, managing productions, an economy, a "breathing" universe, the foundations of an empire building).
Then came X-Tension which had no storyline but allowed you to fly most of the ships, with this and the previous features the X-universe came apart from any other space sim at the time and it was naturally a success.

X2 then was the continuation from the plot from X:BTF with it features and the ability to fly any spaceship just like the X-Tension. It was an overall improvement of the franchise with a new engine, features, technology etc.

Then came X3 - Reunion and WOW, that was a leap. Very improved graphics, physics tweaked, abundant content and liberty. So much to do and in so many ways. You could own and pilot yourself most of the things that existed and influence the universe. It felt more lively than ever!

Til then every ship had a cockpit but in X3 I only had a camera attached to the top of it, but soon I was used to it and enjoyed the bigger view of the universe and my surroundings.

Being able to own and tweak most of what exists in the universe is what puts the X-series apart from any other game and franchise. Achieving most of the things possible aren't easy but the feeling of accomplishment that I feel whenever I finally surpass a hurdle or learn/do something new is awesome.

Now, I am sorry, but the X:R seems only like a dumbed down version of X-series for console. It doesn't even have collision damage!

Ramming was a weapon til then. It is natural! I am sorry but it feels that this "design decision" is only a poor excuse for the constant complaints about the bad AI from the previous game, which continues as bad or worse in this installment and which we can constate this by watching those pirates ramming their noses and shooting nonstop at stations/ships or in us, and in this way we can't shoot at them because at the first time we hit the station we receive a warning, at the second hit everything in the zone turns red on us... So we need to ram them so they get away from the station so we can kill them! (when they do clip inside then there is nothing we can do...)

There are many more "design decisions" on X:R that seems like "poor excuses" or even "plain lies" to the player, so he can "think" that indeed there is something...

About the Capital ships, X3 did everything right as I see. They don't have direct guns so you can't fly and shoot at the same time, but you could give orders to the different sections of turrets and in this way control their behavior. You could start the auto-pilot or issue orders to your own spaceship whenever you liked! There is AI, there is Betty, so even if you are in a S/M, M3, M4, M5 etc, this doesn't prevent you from automating your flight while you do anything else!

Then if you were in a cap ship your turrets were automated, but you could start the autopilot or issue an order while you hop into the turrets to shoot. There even were things that could only be done by the player like charge the PPC!

Cap ships are slow, turn slow etc, but you don't need to pilot them, but you can if you wish.

It is the freedom one of the most important thing in the X-Universe. You can have a complex, you can be a commerce mogul, you can be a pirate, you can fly fighters and capital ships or issue orders to squads and single ships.

Sorry for the wall of text :oops:

Sparky Sparkycorp
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Post by Sparky Sparkycorp » Tue, 8. Aug 17, 10:07

DuckTales wrote: I played X:BTF, X2, X3 - Reunion, completely loved all of them. A bit about each one:
...
Now, I am sorry, but the X:R seems only like a dumbed down version of X-series for console.
I missed the buildup to the release of X Rebirth so I only have secondhand info about intentions, but forum users often equate XR to an X:BTF-style reboot, with Egosoft often stating that their next game will take the XR engine in the direction of a sequel to X3 (e.g. "X4", and allowing the piloting of more ships). As things stand, those statements doesn't relate to piloting capital ships though.

Nevertheless, XR has several areas of gameplay, like capital ship combat, boarding, station construction, station theft, pirates acting like pirates, and aspects of trading, that are more nuanced that in earlier games so I don't agree it's dumbed down.
DuckTales wrote: It doesn't even have collision damage!

Ramming was a weapon til then. It is natural!
It feels cheesy to me in X3:AP. My ship is bigger that target? Check. I can ram it easily because they don't avoid easily? Check. It will probably be insta-killed with zero damage or speed loss to me if I have shields even though I've just rammed something ~20m to ~3km long? Check. XR had shield collision damage for a while so I imagine collision damage in some form will be considered for X4.
DuckTales wrote: (when they do clip inside then there is nothing we can do...)
Although it is also cheesy, the work-around for them getting stuck in station/ship geometry is to go out of sight (OOZ is often enough) and then either go back (they will have typically flown out) or order friendly ships to kill them (not friendly fire while out of sight).
DuckTales wrote: They don't have direct guns so you can't fly and shoot at the same time, but you could give orders to the different sections of turrets and in this way control their behavior.
Some M7s and M2s, like the Deimos and Pteranodon, do have manually-fired main guns but they were in the minority.
DuckTales wrote: There even were things that could only be done by the player like charge the PPC!
Correct use of capital ship lasers was another example I think, but these feel more like problems with the AI and/or bugs to me.


Edit: Typos...
Last edited by Sparky Sparkycorp on Tue, 15. Aug 17, 01:51, edited 1 time in total.

caleb
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Post by caleb » Tue, 15. Aug 17, 01:41

I don't mind not having the option to fly cap ships. As long as I can fly everything smaller than an M6, I'm fine with that.

If they can focus and give us a good space combat simulator for the smaller ships, that's fine by me. I know they won't be able to tackle everything, and if they do, they'll probably fail. Egosoft is a pretty small company after all.

Give us a good fleet control option for cap ships (something like Homeworld), and focus on making the rest of the game great, and we should be good.

I've played all the previous X-games, and in my opinion. cap ships are just not done well. They are just big massive fighters with turrets, and that's it. Cap ship combat should be different, and I'm afraid they won't be able to get it right (cap ship is an strategic weapon, not a tactical weapon)... So focus on fighter combat, and leave cap ships to the AI... But give us a decent AI at least...

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Post by spankahontis » Tue, 15. Aug 17, 22:05

caleb wrote:I don't mind not having the option to fly cap ships. As long as I can fly everything smaller than an M6, I'm fine with that.

If they can focus and give us a good space combat simulator for the smaller ships, that's fine by me. I know they won't be able to tackle everything, and if they do, they'll probably fail. Egosoft is a pretty small company after all.

Give us a good fleet control option for cap ships (something like Homeworld), and focus on making the rest of the game great, and we should be good.

I've played all the previous X-games, and in my opinion. cap ships are just not done well. They are just big massive fighters with turrets, and that's it. Cap ship combat should be different, and I'm afraid they won't be able to get it right (cap ship is an strategic weapon, not a tactical weapon)... So focus on fighter combat, and leave cap ships to the AI... But give us a decent AI at least...

I always liked flying the Vidar, not too slow with a good arsenal of Terran Weapons.

I agree with others that to have 'Gun turrets' that you can enter and use while on Capitals and Cruisers sounds like an awesome idea.
It reminds me of theat scene from Star Wars: A New Hope where Luke is inside that gun turret shooting at the Tie Fighters. That would be epic!

I hope they are able to issue us with a Ship Bridge and with that a tactical bridge with access to a screen that deals in Fleet Management for tactical battles, proper formations, skirmish abilities etc.

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Post by A5PECT » Tue, 15. Aug 17, 22:37

If we're going to be flying capitals, we're going to need to see lots of improvements to turret control compared to X3.

Digging through the command menu every time you wanted to issue a ceasefire or get your turrets to switch targets was... less than ideal.
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Post by ajime » Fri, 18. Aug 17, 05:28

Finally, page 18. :D
The LAST thing I want to do is spend five minutes holding left stick so I can dock a capital vessel.
Actually i do like the immersion of docking a capital vessel. After a huge empire(i keep it small anyways) i usually don't bother using seta anyways. Too busy optimizing the traders. I like for a fact that staying inside an M2/M1 as a flagship since it gives a sense of invincibility unless you screw it up or jumped into a gate with 4 xenon K's full of PSP's. I could maximize the poor maneuverability and weapon setup as a glorious heroic captain in the game for that particular ship i am on, and the thrill of evading capital weapon rounds in a cap and broadsiding em at point blank range keeps me going. Itching to buy and try rebirth but i haven't even finished pumping TC economy just yet to get those ghoul missiles for kicks and giggles. Or maybe it was just the sales :wink:

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Post by caleb » Fri, 18. Aug 17, 22:48

ajime wrote:Finally, page 18. :D
The LAST thing I want to do is spend five minutes holding left stick so I can dock a capital vessel.
Actually i do like the immersion of docking a capital vessel. After a huge empire(i keep it small anyways) i usually don't bother using seta anyways. Too busy optimizing the traders. I like for a fact that staying inside an M2/M1 as a flagship since it gives a sense of invincibility unless you screw it up or jumped into a gate with 4 xenon K's full of PSP's. I could maximize the poor maneuverability and weapon setup as a glorious heroic captain in the game for that particular ship i am on, and the thrill of evading capital weapon rounds in a cap and broadsiding em at point blank range keeps me going. Itching to buy and try rebirth but i haven't even finished pumping TC economy just yet to get those ghoul missiles for kicks and giggles. Or maybe it was just the sales :wink:
I think that's part of the problem... Evading capital ship weapons in a capital ship? That kind of makes a cap ship like a fighter, which it should not be. That's like a modern day carrier "evading" a torpedo... Cap ships are not made to evade stuff, that's what fighters are for. They should be designed to project power on a location. Blow stuff to kingdom come before it even comes close enough to fire.

I know it's a game and all, but making all ships behave like fighters kind of messes it up for me a bit...

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Post by Athraku » Sat, 19. Aug 17, 11:19

So many people telling others how they should play a game that isn't finished... saying capital ships are boring as a statement that must be true.

X-3 major draw for me was the freedom it offered if I wanted to fly a fighter I was free to do so... if i wanted to take a capital ship and watch as its many turrets swatted anything with the misfortune of coming into range... could do that.

Cap ships are given to the player waay to fast with no rep grinds in rebirth too I hope that's fixed with X-4.

With a major criticism of X-Rebirth being the fact you're chained to the skunk I would have guessed an X-4 would have tired to offer us the freedom we had back in previous titles and not stopping half way.
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Post by Ketraar » Sat, 19. Aug 17, 16:33

Athraku wrote:So many people telling others how they should play a game that isn't finished... saying capital ships are boring as a statement that must be true.
I think you are pushing the boundaries of alternative facts. If people say that flying capital ships is boring, then it probably is, for them, which makes it true.

And again with the idea that people want to remove options for others, severely lacks any intention at understanding. The point was made extensively, that we live in a world with finite resources and assuming we agree on that (if we dont, then there is no point in discussing anything really), then the point of people that find the ability to fly capital ships less appealing, rather want resources diverted to areas of the game that benefit all player.

Doesnt mean you have to agree with it. Ideally we would have all the options, possibly for free too.

MFG

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Post by mr.WHO » Sat, 19. Aug 17, 18:25

Athraku wrote: Cap ships are given to the player waay to fast with no rep grinds in rebirth too I hope that's fixed with X-4.

With a major criticism of X-Rebirth being the fact you're chained to the skunk I would have guessed an X-4 would have tired to offer us the freedom we had back in previous titles and not stopping half way.

Obtaining a large fleet of capships in XR was waaay to easy, but in X3 it was too long and micromanagement hell.
I hope that X4 will be something between XR and X3 (leaning slightly to XR "speed/ease").

From what we know, you won't be able to directly control capship in X4. Deal with it, case close, roma locuta causa finita.
You have to wait for X5.

For me the more pressing matter is how good the GUI for capship conrol will be, so I could sit comfortably on the bridge of capship, giving commands, not piloting the damn pile of junk.

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Post by Observe » Sat, 19. Aug 17, 18:58

I don't know for sure, but I'm guessing a real-world battleship, takes more than a joystick to control. On the other hand, a fighter jet is designed for single pilot control with a joystick (or equivalent).

Therefore, controlling a huge Capital spaceship like we would a fighter craft doesn't make a lot of sense. Issuing instructions to the crew seems logical for X4; providing they can come up with vastly improved AI and UI. If not, give me my joystick/keyboard/mouse and I'll control them on my own.

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Post by thrangar » Sat, 19. Aug 17, 20:10

"providing they can come up with vastly improved AI and UI. If not, give me my joystick/keyboard/mouse and I'll control them on my own."

this /\

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Post by insolent1 » Tue, 22. Aug 17, 13:48

I'd like to see a kind of RPG aspect added to this where you can specialize in either large ships or small ships.
The way I would do it,
It would be available mid-late game and be very expensive
You purchase a cybernetic implant that allows you to interface better with your ship giving slight bonus to stuff like speed/shield regen/turn rate/weapon regen

A delay could be added to commands issued to other ships and the implant and further levels of it reduce this delay

Crews could also be added that boost certain things aswell such as a boron crew would boost shield regen, argon crew that boosts hull points and hull repair, split crew would increase speed etc

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Post by Tolmos » Wed, 23. Aug 17, 01:31

I've been playing this series since X2, and I can say that being able to manually maneuver my capships is an absolute must for me to leave X3 and go to X4 for.

The truth is, a lot of times the auto-pilot is simply an accident waiting to happen, and there are situations that require me to personally take control of the ship to get through. The last thing I need is my capital playing bumper-cars with another, or watching it do a little wiggle-dance because it came across an asteroid field and can't decide how it wants to get through. The computer navigating that asteroid field would take 10 minutes with SETA on max; it would take me 2 without SETA at all.

For me, capital ship flight is a necessary utility that helps save me a lot of headache and heartache. Losing that tool in Rebirth ultimately led to me shelving the game and returning to X3. I would likely do similar if confronted with the same issue for X4, unless the auto-pilot was significantly improved over the previous iterations.

Now, it they DO improve the autopilot, then I have no need for the utility. But it's a great workaround when things get tough.

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Post by ajime » Thu, 24. Aug 17, 04:32

Athraku wrote:So many people telling others how they should play a game that isn't finished... saying capital ships are boring as a statement that must be true.

X-3 major draw for me was the freedom it offered if I wanted to fly a fighter I was free to do so... if i wanted to take a capital ship and watch as its many turrets swatted anything with the misfortune of coming into range... could do that.

Cap ships are given to the player waay to fast with no rep grinds in rebirth too I hope that's fixed with X-4.

With a major criticism of X-Rebirth being the fact you're chained to the skunk I would have guessed an X-4 would have tired to offer us the freedom we had back in previous titles and not stopping half way.
OT abit:Well with the right angle and luck even the USS Enterprise was able to evade all counts of torps by the jap bombers. :wink:
But yeah cap duels are impossible to have 0 hits to your sheild from a realistic point of view. Imo turret Slugfest is just as fun as watching TerSlash lasers in Freespace 2 rip apart other ships. I can just just not evade intentionally and watch it pulverize anything in its crosshairs and getting shot in return.

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Post by Player » Fri, 25. Aug 17, 01:13

I would love to pilot boring capital ships. The more of these ships in the game, the better.

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Post by t-master » Fri, 25. Aug 17, 23:32

Just as long as they don't have that ridiculous turn rates from X3.

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Post by RAVEN.myst » Fri, 25. Aug 17, 23:45

t-master wrote:Just as long as they don't have that ridiculous turn rates from X3.
Capital ships SHOULD be slow and cumbersome - gotta take the bad with the good, I'm afraid. Otherwise, it's merely an overgrown fighter (which, arguably, they already are if they are directly pilotable.) Personally, I think the option to take over the HELM of the ship (from the captain or whatever) should be present, but it needs to feel different, and perhaps even be implemented slightly differently in some way, in order to distinguish a capital ship from a lesser vessel.
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Post by mr.WHO » Sat, 26. Aug 17, 17:02

Fresh from Egosoft presentation - you will be able to directly fly caphips if you want!

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