"If China is not going to solve North Korea, we will."

[Ketraar]

That makes perfectly sense for KJU, so I wonder what is Trump's excuse? (Besides having tiny "hands")

MFG

Ketraar

[Morkonan]

A thought I've been having today:

We tend to consider Kim Jong Un insane. In some ways we're right, but on the other hand, I suspect he may be completely without any kind of recognisable mental pathology.

Remember that KJU has been told since he was a baby that he's a demigod, for all practical purposes. Probably the last time anyone said "No!" to him was when he was five years old (except for the time when he was in a Western School, during which time he was mostly surrounded by his minders). He has been conditioned for years to think of himself as infallible and divine.

In this circumstance, can it really be a surprise that he has . . a troubled connection with reality?

I think there's some truth to this, obviously. But, I think it may be a bit more nefarious.

Despite the mythology that the Kims have created and some that they've co-opted for their own use.. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WYW_lPlekiQ

KJU was educated in "The West." Throughout the heady days of Sung, borrowing heavily from the fanatic wave of Communism sweeping through the region with lots of people waving their little books around and executing dissenters, revolutionaries and anyone else who appeared to look sideways at them, a gradual transitive idea emerged from one of a utopic society with one mind to a society ruled by one mind...

The Kims have retained their power by controlling their people through fear. Opposition doesn't exist because opposition has a short life expectancy. One of the fundamental tenets, the relatively worthlessness of the individual when compared to the needs of the State, has been bastardized to mean "those who don't hold power can be killed, tortured or abused out of hand," just as it happened in other nations that attempted such radical change.

Why does a demi-god need a concentration camp? I think that with KJU's experiences in the West as well as in his own country, he's fully aware of the differences between propaganda and reality.

I think KJU has, instead, been educated on the necessity of exploiting the people and taking ruthless measures to keep his family in power. After his siblings fell from favor, I think a great deal of effort was made in preparing him for eventual succession. I "think/believe" he would have been rigorously instructed on the necessity of retaining personal power at all costs. I think he also took that to heart, since it's obvious that if he doesn't, he knows that he will wake up dead one day.

His father reveled in Western luxuries, lived extravagantly, dined with relish (His infamous railroad car fest-hall, bouts with the gout, imported meats, etc, all during some of the worst starvation the country had experienced) while his people literally starved and he "enacted his will" wherever and whenever he desired. Certainly, some of that demonstration of his father's power and KJU's own experience have given him something of a demi-god complex, I agree. But, I think his own motivations for staying in power are a bit more practical - Exert one's will without hesitation over one's own people in order to retain power by one's own hand, for its own sake and the sake of one's life.

Relative to the rest of the World, KJU knows that if he is somehow deposed, there will be no refuge for him - He's been painted into a little corner in the Far East. But, worse, if he should somehow fall from power, if another in his country should make a successful power grab, I think he knows that, by the end, he would pray for death before the end.

I think, somewhere, there is some form of motivation to continue something of a "legacy." Even just mouthing the words to oneself that one's motivations are, somehow, more legitimate than just simple greed is enough to allow one to do... unspeakable things to other human beings. Many tyrants have been fanatics of one sort or another. Some crossed that line and probably saw reality in "the mirror." The worse probably had aspects of both motivations that empowered them - Fanatic beliefs and darker personal desires.

Obligatory photo of glorious leader riding a unicorn

But, to sum: No matter what ultimately motivates KLU or what he thinks about himself or his regime, it's pretty evident that such tyranny can not be allowed to continue. I is a cancer that has been contained, but it is a cancer that must eventually be excised, by one means or another, if the people of the DPRK are ever going to be able to be free. (And, yes, that does sound fanatical, doesn't it? )

[mrbadger]

I wonder what it feels like to realise you are the end of the line. Unless he's so far gone he really doesn't think his little world is going to end soon.

But don't most glorious empires go out this way? In total denial that the end is coming?

[RegisterMe]

Temperature rising?

[Morkonan]

...But don't most glorious empires go out this way? In total denial that the end is coming?

Most of the time, they don't even see it coming. Then, when the point comes when one could say "it happened", they don't realize it. It's not until it has fallen so disastrously, or so obviously, that they finally declare to themselves "it is over."

Only the historians with the benefit of hindsight and a wealth of information can actually "watch" it happening as their timelines progress. Even then, few of them ever agree on any darn thing.

Rapid information exchange and communication can make such things more obvious to some empires, I'd think. But, DPRK is an isolated ant-farm and I don't think those in power really pay attention to things like that. If they did, they'd have seen that their choices have placed them in an untenable position, abandoned by their "allies" (Actually just "enemies of my enemy" for a time during the Korean and Cold War) and without any viable economic means of support that didn't rely on foreign trade. In truth, nothing much more than simple subsistence is possible by DPRK in a vacuum. Someone in DPRK has surely remarked "We're fooked", but they probably got a swift lead injection immediately afterwards.

Temperature rising?

Aaaand... I find it chilling that there's no mention of South Korea. Nobody at all can do anything that doesn't directly involve South Korea. IMO, they must agree to any action taken to solve this problem since they are the ones that are most likely to suffer devastating losses should any solution backfire, including purely diplomatic solutions. They are the only people that can not afford a mistake.

[greypanther]

I cannot help wondering what this is all about, if not a prelude to war?

Then there is this SSGN, which has arrived in SK. It is not that it caries a lot of Cruise Missiles that is interesting, ( after all there are already many there, I would assume, ) but that it is equipped to covertly launch special forces teams. Which is another pre requisite, it seems now a days, before an assault.

@ Morkonan: Do you really thing Trump cares much about Seoul?

[Usenko]

I cannot help wondering what this is all about, if not a prelude to war?

Then there is this SSGN, which has arrived in SK. It is not that it caries a lot of Cruise Missiles that is interesting, ( after all there are already many there, I would assume, ) but that it is equipped to covertly launch special forces teams. Which is another pre requisite, it seems now a days, before an assault.

When you care enough to send the very best . . .

@ Morkonan: Do you really thing Trump cares much about Seoul?

Depends - are there votes in caring?

[greypanther]

Well the Conservative party over here are not known for caring and they seem to be doing very well!

[Morkonan]

I cannot help wondering what this is all about, if not a prelude to war?

The First Rule of Meetings: The more meetings one has, the less work that actually gets done.

I don't think any prelude to war starts with a press release stating that "We're having a meeting!" Besides: Powerpoint doesn't have a generic "Let's Go To War" template. My personal conclusion: "Look at me! I must be doing something 'cause I had a meeting about it!" - Trump

Then there is this SSGN, which has arrived in SK. It is not that it caries a lot of Cruise Missiles that is interesting, ( after all there are already many there, I would assume, ) but that it is equipped to covertly launch special forces teams. Which is another pre requisite, it seems now a days, before an assault.

What is the most important combat asset of a submarine? It's designed to do... what? HIDING! Knowing where a submarine is doesn't really help that. Sure, this is one of a handful of specially outfitted submarines. It can make headlines, of sorts. But, submarines are not supposed to be "headline generators" and neither are special operations forces. These are things that one says one has and that one can use. They lose their effectiveness and are compromised whenever one reveals where they are... especially if one ends up warning their targets. The only time anyone talks seriously about submarines or special operations forces is after they've done whatever it is they were supposed to do and someone is counting bodies and making insurance claims while the crew and operators are sipping coffee after their debriefing.

IOW - More grandstanding. And, actually, pretty irresponsible grandstanding if any of these people were actually going into harm's way, since their primary means of protection, anonymity, has been compromised.

@ Morkonan: Do you really thing Trump cares much about Seoul?

I have no idea. I don't want to think that he wouldn't care about millions of people who's safety will be effected if he makes a mistake. I would hope that he has a vague notion of where Seoul is, since it's one of the primary business hubs of the region. (Karaoke Center of the Universe) I do think that he cares about how people view his efforts in regards to his handling of the DPRK situation. If the security of the citizens of South Korea and Seoul is positively effected by that, then that's all that really matters, whether he "cares" about them or not.

[Ripskar]

Reminds me of the nuclear sub that left for the Atlantic just before Argentina invaded the Falklands.
Fairly standard attempt at deterrence.

[greypanther]

Un continues to push

I just cannot help but think it is time to put this mad dog down.
Terrible consequences, but those consequences, will get much worse, the longer it takes...

[Usenko]

Well, his missiles are operating with a striking operational consistency.

[Morkonan]

...I just cannot help but think it is time to put this mad dog down.

Not sure which "mad dog" you're talking about. Pick one.

Terrible consequences, but those consequences, will get much worse, the longer it takes...

And, that's why we're where we are in all of this. Now, we have an ant-hill nation of mostly brainwashed, terribly uneducated and unskilled citizens with no real economic mobility, real or potential, and an entire international political system that has adopted a culture that is firmly rooted in the belief "If we don't do anything about DPRK, it will go away."

The thing is, if the DPRK government collapsed... It's just a darn scary thing to contemplate. The only people capable of picking up the pieces in the DPRK may even be worse than the Kim regime. Who knows what sort of atrocities they'd commit against their citizens after their Demi-god, Kim, fell from grace?

We, the nations of the world, have allowed DPRK and the Kims, to create a not-reality nation, with fanatical doctrine being pushed through all parts of their culture. Some of us, like South Korea and its allies, may have to pay a very human cost if diplomacy fails. But, the ones who suffer the most will be the poor, brainwashed, masses of the DPRK.

[Santi]

Just for a moment I will like all to remember how much better their lives are now, for those citizens of countries like Afghanistan, Syria, Iraq and Libya who thanks to western intervention they can now look to a brighter future or not...

After saying that:

The issue with North Korea is the same as with Iran, once they achieve Nuclear ballistic capacity, they are untouchable. Instead of sabre rattling, the only possible course of action is the Israel doctrine of using military force to destroy the infrastructure necessary for the development of nuclear weapons. Worth thinking about how much coverage and diplomatic complaints got the US strike with missiles in Syria compared to the latest strike by Israel planes in Syria.

I do not share the concern regarding those countries having nuclear ballistic capacity, and I believe that the actual UN position is just useless, dictatorships rely on an outside enemy to galvanise popular opinion and ask for sacrifices. Bring wealth and culture to those countries and change will follow.

[felter]

Just for a moment I will like all to remember how much better their lives are now, for those citizens of countries like Afghanistan, Syria, Iraq and Libya who thanks to western intervention they can now look to a brighter future or not...

Out off those four countries you mention, Syria without a doubt is the worst off, and it is the one that the west has tried to limit the amount of intervention it has got involved in. I'm not saying the other three are holiday spots for a Sunday picnic, but would they or could they also be just another Syria if the West never got involved in them, and would Syria be as bad as it is right now if the west had intervened. You see that's the problem with using this kind of examples, we just do not know what would have happened if we had not got involved, as things could be a lot worse than they are right now, like Syria is showing.

[Mightysword]

Just for a moment I will like all to remember how much better their lives are now, for those citizens of countries like Afghanistan, Syria, Iraq and Libya who thanks to western intervention they can now look to a brighter future or not...

Afghanistan: it's worth to remember the most likely alternative to the current Afghanistan would be a Taliban Afghanistan ... you can't be serious if you think it would actually be better than the current one? Because if we were ok with a Taliban Afghanistan, why not just let ISIS does whatever it please?

Libya: I'm not sure what would happen in the long run, but I know in the shortrun what would have happened if the West didn't intervene. Gadafi was by all mean no less crazy then Kim, maybe even worse. If he had won that uprising he might make Apartheid looks like a third rate horror show.

Iraq: a bit unstable with a pretty laughable army, but it's still a more proper sovereignty now then it was under Saddam. You should really find some Iraqi political refugees from Saddam time and talk to them before you suggest thing was better than. Yes they get the sporoadict suicide bomb incident. But ask yourself this question: between living in the UK during their IRA struggle and living under a Soviet Stalin, which one is worse? And Saddam seems to be a lot more crazy then Stalin.

Bring wealth and culture to those countries and change will follow.

Not really, not with a leader like the Kim family. They are far too disconnected to allow any kind of distraction now. Even if you look at other countries in the region like China or Vietnam which is more or less still pretty much a dictatorship in disguise, they both at least recognize the need to incorporate themselves into the larger world, that's why they changed in the late 80' after the Soviet collapse. Mao was hyped up as a good, but Deng Xiaoping later famously said "it doesn't matter if it's red cat or black cat, he only needs cats that can catch mouse". Vietnamese leadership also made similar shift, they didn't exactly hype up anyone to be God after Ho Chi Minh. But North Korea, they decided to go down the path of GodHood instead.

It's worth to remember that the South have been trying that idea for "age", look at the Kaesong Industrial Zone and what came out of it. Bring in money and wealth you say? Whose money? And who will take the risk of going there? The moment you step in a place like a North Korean, you're a potential political hostage. My native country used to be a place like NK, just a lot less worse. You can only do business with a regular healthy dose if "grease money" to the official with very little winfall down to the populace themselves. And country like this has no stable policy, you can be a "great friend and good business partner" today and become a "enemy of the state and imperialist" tomorrow for no other reason than a swing of smooth of the "dear leader". So again, who will take that risk assuming you're talking about private entity. And Humanitarian effort? I can 99.9% guarantee you that 99.9% of any kind of investment or aid will just lining the pocket of those fatso.

[Ketraar]

and would Syria be as bad as it is right now if the west had intervened.

You mean if the "west" had NOT intervened, right? Pretty sure there was and is plenty of intervention from the "west".

MFG

Ketraar

[muppetts]

and would Syria be as bad as it is right now if the west had intervened.

You mean if the "west" had NOT intervened, right? Pretty sure there was and is plenty of intervention from the "west".

MFG

Ketraar

All the rebel weapons are from the USA, all the Government weapons are from Russia, it's a proxy war, it's about as intervened as you can fricking get!!

[muppetts]

Trump says he will do something if North Korea does another missle test, they do another test, he does nothing and the USA mainland is closer to North Korea than the so called 'Armada' he has steaming there LOL

So Obama fks up with his red line and the GOP goes nuts, their orange monkey makes his 1000th fk up and still SILENCE.

Spineless is the new Red.

[Santi]

Libya is currently in a civil war since Gadafi was deposed thanks to western intervention, on top of that because of the power vacuum they have an ISIS uprising and small warlords have proliferated in many parts of the country.

Iraq, since the USA invasion has experienced a civil war (the so called insurrection by the Sunni), ethnic cleansing in a massive scale, not only by Sunnis and Shia but by Kurds also, ISIS is and will be a force to be reckoning with for many years to come as they switch to guerrilla warfare.

Syria Civil war is the currently having top slot in the news.

Afghanistan, seriously? Russia invasion, USA training what it later turned out to be the Taliban, USA invasion.

It is better that Taliban or for that matter an Assad regime is in power, if it stops the bloodbath currently going on. A bloodbath that we created. And is not only death, but famine, sickness, displacement of millions of people from their homes etc...

North Korea is currently under sanctions, open up commerce, top class will get even more corrupt, corruption leads to enrichment of a few and enrichment of a few leads to malcontent from the populace and for political aspirations. Slow burn but it always have worked.