May Calls General election

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Bishop149
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Post by Bishop149 » Mon, 12. Jun 17, 15:07

CBJ wrote:There has already been a lot of head-scratching and general disbelief from the EU side, about the UK's weird ideas about what may and may not even be up for discussion. Indeed the whole concept of a "soft Brexit" is one that only appears to exist in the minds of optimists in the UK camp.
As someone who would advocate for a "soft Brexit" I would define it as follows: Basically Norway, outside the EU but remaining part of the EEC.
This approach would also have the advantage of delivering EXACTLY what was written on the ballot paper: We will leave the EU, nothing more and nothing less.
I'm afraid that no one voted to leave the EEC, or end free movement etc etc they may have thought that's what they were voting for but more fool them. . . . to repeat some old exam advice: "Read the bloody question, then read it again to be sure"

But this is of course flippant and unfair to those voters, the real problem was that boiling such a complex issue down to a single question was moronic. Admittedly with hindsight the ballot should have had many more questions upon it such as:
- Should Britain remain part of or leave the EEC?
- Should EU national remain free to live and work in the UK, and UK nationals remain free to live an work in Europe?

Of course its become increasingly clear that the question many Leave voters were actually voting upon was not the one on the ballot paper, it was instead:
- Should immigration to the UK be dramatically reduced?
This is broadly acknowledged and there seems to be consensus that Brexit should try to deliver upon it. So, given that, I agree it is extremely hard to imagine what a "Soft Brexit" that rejects freedom of movement would look like. The two ideas are essentially mutually exclusive.

It was been mooted by some in the aftermath of the election that, with immigration the real issue here, the EU might offer an essentially improved version of what David Cameron was seeking to try and avoid the referendum in the first place. I.e. Remain in the EU but enforce far stricter rules on immigration across the whole Union and/or arrange a special exception for Britain. Anti-immigration sentiment is not after all unique to Britain at the moment, a broader restriction might go down well in many EU states.
Of course if that were the deal Farage and co would absolutely flip their nuts, and would be justified in doing so, it would not deliver upon the referendum question . . . but rather on one that was not asked. :roll:
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Post by CBJ » Mon, 12. Jun 17, 15:30

Bishop149 wrote:As someone who would advocate for a "soft Brexit" I would define it as follows: Basically Norway, outside the EU but remaining part of the EEC.
This approach would also have the advantage of delivering EXACTLY what was written on the ballot paper: We will leave the EU, nothing more and nothing less.
The problem isn't so much how you define it; it's whether that definition is something that the rest of the EU has any interest whatsoever in allowing the UK to even bring to the table. Many of the "soft" options involve elements that simply aren't up for discussion from the EU side.

As for the Norway model, yes it is indeed probably the best available option from the UK's perspective, but sadly that doesn't actually deliver what people voted for. You say people only voted on one thing, but I'd add a second: Should we continue paying large amounts of money into the EU? And of course the Norway model involves just that.

Anyway, back to the general election...

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Post by birdtable » Mon, 12. Jun 17, 16:04

The true instincts of the politician will emerge over the next few weeks, one desperate to retain power the other desperate to gain... each balancing which unsavoury bed to climb into all in the name of "the nation and its people".. An internal game that benefits no one, only the players.

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Post by muppetts » Mon, 12. Jun 17, 18:08

Chips wrote:
muppetts wrote:People slap out sentences about 'trade deal with China', really what exactly does that mean, what trade.
It means exactly what it says, a deal about how we trade with China. If you don't know what we trade with China, perhaps do some searching? If you don't think we trade with China, or there is little value, then it shows a startling ignorance! :roll:
So clearly you have no idea either but I expected that. Do we have trade with lots of other counties :headbang: :headbang: :headbang:

Yes Chips well done we do

will it replace the trade we would lose from the single market, NO OBVIOUSLY NOT.

but you can search that :roll:

Look up what goes out and what comes in, I'm sure you can figure out the maths....
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Post by Golden_Gonads » Mon, 12. Jun 17, 19:09

The UK export market is currently at it's strongest it's been in decades thanks to the weak pound. When we leave the EU, even with additional EU taxes it will still be stronger than it has been in a long while. The import market will be weak though and that's where trade deals with places like China and India will come into their own.

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Post by Bishop149 » Mon, 12. Jun 17, 19:44

Troll Level: European Union

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Post by Chips » Mon, 12. Jun 17, 20:13

muppetts wrote: will it replace the trade we would lose from the single market, NO OBVIOUSLY NOT.
It's not supposed to replace anything, they're not mutually exclusive "one or other" :roll:

Seeing as we haven't even negotiated with Europe the nature of the exit, what is/isn't accessible and for what reasons, then your assertions are a load of assumption dripped with hysteria.

Get hysterical by all means, but please don't try to spread that among us when there's currently no foundation for it whatsoever - and then berate people who don't share your posting melodrama.

CBJ wrote: As for the Norway model, yes it is indeed probably the best available option from the UK's perspective, but sadly that doesn't actually deliver what people voted for. You say people only voted on one thing, but I'd add a second: Should we continue paying large amounts of money into the EU? And of course the Norway model involves just that.
Also worth pointing out that Norway is part of Schengen - something which the UK isn't, and would probably cause leave voters to spit feathers if we were.

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Post by Ripskar » Tue, 13. Jun 17, 04:51

muppetts wrote:
Ripskar wrote:Whether leaving the EU is a success or failure can be determined fairly easily, it comes down to whether or not we can get trades deals with India and China. If we do it'll work out, if not the country is screwed, all else is waffle.
That's very 1 dimensional, neither of those markets are fully developed with regards to import. They have lots to sell us but we do not have country wide industry support products they would want from us, especially over and above anyone else who offers what little we could trade with them cheaper.

People slap out sentences about 'trade deal with China', really what exactly does that mean, what trade.

In short we are not going to replace the trade of the single market with China or India or both, regardless of 'waffle', whatever that implies.
This is probably the biggest problem with Brussels, they simply cannot see the the potential of the asian markets and have been flacid in negotiating with India and China.
This has been dragging on for years costing significant income and employment with no sense of urgency or direction from EU negotiatiors. We will have the opportunity to develop that trade whilst the EU paddles about aimlessly.
As to what, literally anything and everything you can think of plus a whole lot more you can`t. Go browse alibaba.com if you're stuck.
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Post by Morkonan » Tue, 13. Jun 17, 08:51

Brexit II... Last week, tonight: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fyVz5vgqBhE

Beautiful. :)

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Post by CBJ » Tue, 13. Jun 17, 10:04

"The uploader has not made this video available in your country."

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Post by Mightysword » Tue, 13. Jun 17, 16:30

Is the bit about lord buckethead real? :?

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Post by eladan » Tue, 13. Jun 17, 17:12

Mightysword wrote:Is the bit about lord buckethead real? :?
Yep. Gotta love UK politics. :)

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Post by felter » Tue, 13. Jun 17, 18:44

Had to use an American server to watch that video about British politics, and I have to say that is probably the best report that I have actually seen concerning so called Brexit. It actually points out quite clearly some of the issues of Brexit, and how messed (wanted to use another word here) up we are going to be.

If Buckethead had been standing for election here, I would have voted for him rather than just voting for none of the above, but for some reason we never seem to get any of the silly candidates. Shame at 249 votes, he wouldn't have got his deposit back.
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Post by mrbadger » Tue, 13. Jun 17, 18:52

Mightysword wrote:Is the bit about lord buckethead real? :?
That's fairly standard, I'd say he was pretty restrained.

You generally find the people under those absurd outfits are very interesting and well informed.

But also fairly tired of the absurdity of our real political parties. And often quite wildly eccentric.

But there's nothing wrong with being eccentric.
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Post by Bishop149 » Tue, 13. Jun 17, 19:00

I stargarts following Lord Buckethead on Twitter on election night so was prewarned of his appearance with John Oliver in the below:
https://twitter.com/lordbuckethead/stat ... 9845903360
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Post by Antilogic » Wed, 14. Jun 17, 19:32


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Post by Antilogic » Wed, 14. Jun 17, 20:03

This last two years have seen the Liberal Democrats recover since the devastation of the 2015 election.
That recovery was never inevitable but we have seen the doubling of our party membership, growth in council elections, our first parliamentary by-election win for more than a decade, and most recently our growth at the 2017 general election.
Most importantly the Liberal Democrats have established ourselves with a significant and distinctive role - passionate about Europe, free trade, strong well-funded public services underpinned by a growing market economy.
No one else occupies that space. Against all the odds, the Liberal Democrats matter again.
We can be proud of the progress we have made together, although there is much more we need to do.
From the very first day of my leadership, I have faced questions about my Christian faith. I've tried to answer with grace and patience. Sometimes my answers could have been wiser.
At the start of this election, I found myself under scrutiny again - asked about matters to do with my faith. I felt guilty that this focus was distracting attention from our campaign, obscuring our message.
Journalists have every right to ask what they see fit. The consequences of the focus on my faith is that I have found myself torn between living as a faithful Christian and serving as a political leader.
A better, wiser person than me may have been able to deal with this more successfully, to have remained faithful to Christ while leading a political party in the current environment.
To be a political leader - especially of a progressive, liberal party in 2017 - and to live as a committed Christian, to hold faithfully to the Bible's teaching, has felt impossible for me.
I'm a liberal to my finger tips, and that liberalism means that I am passionate about defending the rights and liberties of people who believe different things to me.
There are Christians in politics who take the view that they should impose the tenets of faith on society, but I have not taken that approach because I disagree with it - it's not liberal and it is counterproductive when it comes to advancing the gospel.
Even so, I seem to be the subject of suspicion because of what I believe and who my faith is in.
In which case we are kidding ourselves if we think we yet live in a tolerant, liberal society.
That's why I have chosen to step down as leader of the Liberal Democrats.
I intend to serve until the parliamentary recess begins next month, at which point there will be a leadership election according to the party’s rules.
This is a historic time in British politics. What happens in the next months and years will shape our country for generations.
My successor will inherit a party that is needed now more than ever before. Our future as an open, tolerant and united country is at stake.
The cause of British liberalism has never been needed more. People who will fight for a Britain that is confident, generous and compassionate are needed more than ever before.
That is the challenge our party and my successor faces and the opportunity I am certain that they will rise to.
I want to say one more thing: I joined our party when I was 16, it is in my blood, I love our history, our people, I thoroughly love my party.
Imagine how proud I am to lead this party. And then imagine what would lead me to voluntarily relinquish that honour.
In the words of Isaac Watts it would have to be something 'so amazing, so divine, (it) demands my heart, my life, my all'.
Thank you,
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Ripskar
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Post by Ripskar » Wed, 14. Jun 17, 21:20

Given Clegg was a disestablishmentarian that question was always going to come up. Having a non-christian leader was a definite plus given the lack of believers in the working age population.
Given Farron chose to quit over it probably says more about him than anything else, though he came over as rather lacklustre during the election.
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Post by pjknibbs » Wed, 14. Jun 17, 22:11

He could have chosen better timing, though--you almost think he wanted to bury this bad news with the London tower fire? He could at least have held off a couple of days before announcing it.

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Post by GCU Grey Area » Wed, 14. Jun 17, 22:34

pjknibbs wrote:He could have chosen better timing, though--you almost think he wanted to bury this bad news with the London tower fire? He could at least have held off a couple of days before announcing it.
Think more likely due to Paddick quitting (http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-40277398), which happened a few hours earlier. Pity about Farron though - certainly didn't agree with his religious views & he had the misfortune to be born on the wrong side of the Pennines, but aside from all that seemed like a decent bloke & think he did a reasonable job as LD leader. Wonder who'll be next, it's not as though they have a great number of people to choose from.

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