May Calls General election

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notaterran
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Post by notaterran » Fri, 21. Apr 17, 07:07

Santi wrote:Of course the UK could be a fiscal paradise targeting the USA, China or Russia, but do not think it will happen.
There are already more than a few Russian billions stashed in London. Give it time :(
Vasile Sarco, an investigating officer in Moldova, told The Independent at the time of its original investigation: “This money was routed from Russia, but the companies incorporated in Britain were instrumental to transit the funds.”

The new documents reportedly reveal that, once laundered, some of the money was spent on diamonds from a jewellers in Bond Street, furs, chandeliers from a Chelsea boutique and boarding fees at Millfield, a prestigious public school in Somerset.
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Post by RegisterMe » Fri, 21. Apr 17, 09:48

* Tories? I couldn't vote for a party that would put people like Johnson, Fox and Davis in charge of anything as important as Brexit.
* Labour? I couldn't vote for jokers like Corbyn and McDonnell. For a start the two of them are economically illiterate.
* Lib Dems? I couldn't vote for a party run by an evangelical Christian.

But voting is important. I guess I am headed for a spoil :-/.
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Post by Bishop149 » Fri, 21. Apr 17, 12:37

notaterran wrote:
Bishop149 wrote:Have you any idea what its like to LIVE in a tax haven if you aren't one of the ultra elite whom it benefits?
The people in Switzerland seem to have a nice standard of living. Perhaps the Swiss don't worry too much about where the money comes from. There are already billions stashed in London, and probably billions more will flow through British banks. This is not something that I like to see, but apparently the Russian money has found many friends in the UK. The question is, will the British be as unconcerned about the money's origin as the Swiss have been.
Switzerland is something of a special case, largely for historical reasons. Unfortunately even if we decided we were amoral enough to go for that model it isn't going to work, basically because only Switzerland gets to be Switzerland.
Nah if we wanted to be a tax haven we'd have to go the whole hog (Bermuda, Caymen islands etc) or else why bother. There already is an established not quite complete tax haven in Europe. . . . the aforementioned Swiss and we ain't gonna beat them at that game.
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Post by Antilogic » Fri, 21. Apr 17, 13:17

RegisterMe wrote: * Lib Dems? I couldn't vote for a party run by an evangelical Christian.
You know my opinions on religion, and I'm fairly happy with Farron. He does a good job of understanding that his personal beliefs are his own and not letting them affect the party stance. Unlike May, who preaches about God from the door of 10 Downing Street on a daily basis.

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Post by Bishop149 » Fri, 21. Apr 17, 13:29

Headdesk

Oh well might as well give up then, another fine example of how broken our electoral system is. So if Labour beat the Tories in terms of vote share by damn near 7% of the registered vote it wouldn't be enough to kick them out.
Wonderful system we have innit.

So in conclusion our only hope is a large number of Tory voters changing their minds, yeah I won't hold my breath.
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Post by brucewarren » Fri, 21. Apr 17, 13:34

Still possible. Mind you so is getting hit by lightning from a blue sky so I'm not holding my breath either.

There's a school of thought that says opposition parties don't win elections so much as governments lose them.

It depends on how well or how badly Mrs May performs her job over the next few weeks. If she does a good job or even moderately well she gets a landslide. If she went full Donald on us I think even the most ardent Conservative voters might turn against her.

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Post by Chips » Fri, 21. Apr 17, 15:12

Bishop149 wrote:Headdesk

Oh well might as well give up then, another fine example of how broken our electoral system is. So if Labour beat the Tories in terms of vote share by damn near 7% of the registered vote it wouldn't be enough to kick them out.
Wonderful system we have innit.

So in conclusion our only hope is a large number of Tory voters changing their minds, yeah I won't hold my breath.
Spin is spin... the same applies for every election in history (including the ones won by Labour). e.g. Tories got 700,000 votes fewer than Labour in one election, yet Labour had +247 seats over the Conservatives. You could start crunching numbers for other parties ganging up with tactical voting to find whether it'd make a blind bit of difference in most of those elections too.

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Post by philip_hughes » Fri, 21. Apr 17, 15:46

Don't worry, there is still hope. North Korea could figure out how to make nukes and put us all out of our misery
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Post by greypanther » Sat, 22. Apr 17, 00:58

philip_hughes wrote:Don't worry, there is still hope. North Korea could figure out how to make nukes and put us all out of our misery
It's OK, Australians would inherit the world, it is likely to be mostly the Northern Hemisphere that would suffer. I doubt fatty is targeting Australia. :roll:
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Post by philip_hughes » Sat, 22. Apr 17, 02:00

If it got that bad, the resulting nuclear winter would mean that nothing larger than a dog could survive within a few years. Rest assured, we will die, just a lot slower, due to starvation.
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Post by Stars_InTheirEyes » Sat, 22. Apr 17, 04:28

I have no idea who I'm gonna vote for. I know it definitely won't be the tories.
If Corbyn is replaced before it, then maybe I'd go for labour... if not it would have to be the lib dems... and as an atheist I can't be okay with that...
Ugh.

Maybe I'll just vote for myself.
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Post by philip_hughes » Sat, 22. Apr 17, 05:20

Stars_InTheirEyes wrote:I have no idea who I'm gonna vote for. I know it definitely won't be the tories.
If Corbyn is replaced before it, then maybe I'd go for labour... if not it would have to be the lib dems... and as an atheist I can't be okay with that...
Ugh.

Maybe I'll just vote for myself.
Brexit/trump/pauline hanson in a nutshell
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Post by notaterran » Sat, 22. Apr 17, 11:19

Bishop149 wrote:
notaterran wrote:
Bishop149 wrote:Have you any idea what its like to LIVE in a tax haven if you aren't one of the ultra elite whom it benefits?
The people in Switzerland seem to have a nice standard of living. Perhaps the Swiss don't worry too much about where the money comes from. There are already billions stashed in London, and probably billions more will flow through British banks. This is not something that I like to see, but apparently the Russian money has found many friends in the UK. The question is, will the British be as unconcerned about the money's origin as the Swiss have been.
Switzerland is something of a special case, largely for historical reasons. Unfortunately even if we decided we were amoral enough to go for that model it isn't going to work, basically because only Switzerland gets to be Switzerland.
Nah if we wanted to be a tax haven we'd have to go the whole hog (Bermuda, Caymen islands etc) or else why bother. There already is an established not quite complete tax haven in Europe. . . . the aforementioned Swiss and we ain't gonna beat them at that game.
My point is that Russian fat cats have ALREADY found a welcoming shelter in the UK, and are using British banks to stash or launder their money. Going back to mrbadger's question, perhaps an improved version of Gordon Brown's "light touch" could make London as competitive (or amoral, depends on how you see it) as Switzerland?
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Post by Morkonan » Sat, 22. Apr 17, 22:46

An Ignorant American ™ appears...

So, can anyone, for the benefit of the woefully uninformed, describe the U.K.'s various political groups in once sentence for each? Just so someone who has no real clue can discover how constituents see these groups and how they believe they effect/affect/defect U.K. politics...

As an example, here are the 'Murican political parties and their descriptions:

Republicans: Gun toting, testosterone-fueled, patriots who are against increasing the power of the government over the people, but use government regulations or the repeal of same to generate vast wealth and power for themselves, or those who lobby and pay them, and then use this money to retain their power.

Rally Cry: Freedom at any cost, so long as that cost is paid to me.

Democrats: Wealthy intellectual effete milksops who champion the cause of the oppressed and the discriminated against by carrying signs and blaming Republicans for the Sun rising and for the lack of government programs designed to give money to those who need it, but never seem to get it, before Ubering to the next rally to collect campaign donations from lobbying groups who control the popular media and most of the public education that generates the headlines and espouse vague ideals which will keep them in power.

Rally Cry: Freedom at any cost, so long as that cost is paid to me.

Libertarians: A relatively new political group comprised mostly of young, partially-educated-enough-to-be-dangerous, fedora-wearing champions of the U.S. Constitution that believe that every problem can be solved by nobody actually doing anything about it and that anyone in government who does something that attempts to control against a social or economic problem happening must then be the cause of the problem.

Rally Cry: Freedom at any cost, so long as nobody really knows what that cost may be and someone, somewhere, say's the word "Constitutional!"

The Tea Party: Politicians who have attempted to gain power, money, and paid public-speaking engagements, by poking sticks into political ant-hills filled with angry people with guns who have either just lost their semi-skilled labor jobs or have decided that they are very angry about something because being angry about something at least gives them something to be angry about.

Rally Cry: I AM ANGRY, RAWR, SO PASS THE AMMUNITION! <gunfire>

Independent: Politicians who have discovered that they can avoid the blame that assaults many other political parties by pretending to not actually be a member of a political party, even though they tend to swim in whatever current is the most powerful, which is usually generated by the passing of intestinal gasses of whatever political party is the most influential in their districts.

Rally Cry: No matter what it is, it's not my fault!

Other: Politicians that never get elected, but probably publish a magazine or website, somewhere, who gain the support of at least ten people, yet manage to secure headlines in regional news publications that make them seem more powerful, so they can get donations from mostly obscure, exploited, groups of people that allow them to afford their next mortgage payment.

Rally Cry: We know things suck, but you can't really mean that someone really wants to elect us?


PS - Somewhat OT, in jest, but I would really like to know what some of the people impacted by this call for elections feel about the various political parties involved in their government, in as light-hearted, yet somewhat revealing, non-confrontational, non-biased way as possible. :) That could happen, right? ;)

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Post by brucewarren » Sun, 23. Apr 17, 01:26

I'll have a go but bear in mind that it's politics so there is bound to be a lot of bias in the answer.

There are three main parties, two large parties and a much smaller third party.

The parities are:

The Conservatives who consider themselves free marketeers. They'll privatise stuff because the market knows best. Considered centre right. Their enemies will accuse them of being in the pockets of the corporations.

The Labour party were created by the Trades Unions and still have close ties to them. Like to nationalise stuff because government knows better than the market. Considered centre left. Their enemies will accuse them of being in the pockets of the unions.

The Liberal Democrats. Also considered centre left. Possibly slightly further to the left than labour. Very much smaller than the two big parties these days. Fond of electoral reform, the rights of the citizen, and the EU. Their enemies will accuse them of being able to hold a full party conference in a telephone kiosk and of being fond of electoral reform because it would increase their number of seats. Also accused of being a little too fond of our European partners.

There are other parties, such as the Greens who could be considered centre left but their primary focus is trying to stop the planet getting all dirty and polluted and there are a number of Independents - Folks who belong to no party and are only interested in their local constituency.

Naturally each party thinks they are the only ones capable of forming a sane economic strategy - the other guys would quickly put the country in the poor house, and in the ensuing chaos the Four Horsemen would ride out.

In a UK election the economy is usually the biggest issue. There's no surer way of throwing away an election than being accused of taxing too much, not having costed your plans properly, or proposing anything that will make folk poorer or increase unemployment.

A naive person might equate the Conservatives with the Republicans and the Labour party with the Democrats but this would in error. From this side of the pond both American parties appear very much further to the right.

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Post by Morkonan » Sun, 23. Apr 17, 21:32

brucewarren wrote:I'll have a go but bear in mind that it's politics so there is bound to be a lot of bias in the answer...
That stuff was pretty informative to a neophyte, thanks!

Is there any perceived notion of a struggle between socioeconomic political "ideals." For instance, Socialism vs Capitalism is a fairly strong theme in the US.

Yet, in the U.K., from a "a generic 'Murican's" point of view, there are plenty of "socialized" institutions, services, etc that many in the U.K. seem to not mind very much or, at least, don't speak out about in regards to the Holy Struggle Against Communism and Socialism in Today's Enlightened World of Capitalism, Liberty and FREEEDOOOOM! :)

Also: From day to day, how much of a U.K. Citizen's life does that citizen feel is impacted directly by their government? And, how much of this do they actually get ticked off about? Just taxes? Jobs? Television regulations? Housing? Privacy? - That sort of stuff.

Why ask these things? Because, I'm interested in how forum members view their government and how they feel their lives are effected by their choice of government(s) and political leaders. I'm also a little concerned about the rise of Nationalism and curious as to whether or not people recognize/care about it.

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Post by Bishop149 » Mon, 24. Apr 17, 13:34

@Mork

Ha! A fun exercise, I'll have a go. Ordering by vote share at last election and ignoring the ones I know nothing about, notably the NI parties . . . . all I know about them is that Sinn Fein is the IRA one. Like brucewarren disclaimer for my own lefty bias.

Conservatives (36.9%): The party of the rich, ultra rich and old. Screws anyone not in the top tax bracket for the benefit of those that are. . . . and pensioners (the latter being their core vote base). Long called "The Nasty Party" by their critics.

Labour (30.4%): Self styled "party of the workers", socialists perhaps even a little communist. At least 30 years ago they were, since Blair essentially soft conservatives. Their leader (and membership) are now trying to turn the clock back and return to their roots and core values, so the party is essentially at war with itself.

UKIP (12.6%): Soft racists, the party for people with "legitimate concerns about immigration" and who prefix sentences with "I'm not racist but. . . . ". Stated reason to exist was to leave the EU, now that's achieved they seem to have decide their new direction is to be a more modern version of the BNP, unsurprising given their vote base. Basically the reason we're leaving the EU is because the conservatives panicked and kneejerked over UKIP stealing about 1.5% of their vote base. Yes really. . . . . .

Lib Dems (7.9%): Hippy liberals. . . . in theory, in practice not especially liberal at all. The party of sounding sensible but not ever really having to deliver. Were expected to deliver in 2010 and royally betrayed everyone that voted for them. No credibility left.

SNP (4.7%): A more sensible socialist party that is also ultra nationalist. . . . but only about Scotland. A walking bag of contradictions. Don't stand outside Scotland by tradition.

Greens (3.8%): REALLY Hippy liberals, kinda Lib Dem+. Tend to make sense when talking about the environment, less so when talking about anything else.

Plaid Cymru (0.6%): A mix of the Greens and SNP but for Wales. Insist upon talking a moribund language at every available opportunity.

BNP (<0.1%): Hard racists, for the skinheads who think Hitler may have had some good points. Including them because they used to be more of a thing, polling up to 5% of the vote. . . . . pretty much all their vote switched to UKIP.
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Post by Redvers Ganderpoke » Mon, 24. Apr 17, 14:16

Bishop149 wrote:@Mork

Ha! A fun exercise, I'll have a go. Ordering by vote share at last election and ignoring the ones I know nothing about, notably the NI parties . . . . all I know about them is that Sinn Fein is the IRA one. Like brucewarren disclaimer for my own lefty bias.

Conservatives (36.9%): The party of the rich, ultra rich and old. Screws anyone not in the top tax bracket for the benefit of those that are. . . . and pensioners (the latter being their core vote base). Long called "The Nasty Party" by their critics.

Labour (30.4%): Self styled "party of the workers", socialists perhaps even a little communist. At least 30 years ago they were, since Blair essentially soft conservatives. Their leader (and membership) are now trying to turn the clock back and return to their roots and core values, so the party is essentially at war with itself.

UKIP (12.6%): Soft racists, the party for people with "legitimate concerns about immigration" and who prefix sentences with "I'm not racist but. . . . ". Stated reason to exist was to leave the EU, now that's achieved they seem to have decide their new direction is to be a more modern version of the BNP, unsurprising given their vote base. Basically the reason we're leaving the EU is because the conservatives panicked and kneejerked over UKIP stealing about 1.5% of their vote base. Yes really. . . . . .

Lib Dems (7.9%): Hippy liberals. . . . in theory, in practice not especially liberal at all. The party of sounding sensible but not ever really having to deliver. Were expected to deliver in 2010 and royally betrayed everyone that voted for them. No credibility left.

SNP (4.7%): A more sensible socialist party that is also ultra nationalist. . . . but only about Scotland. A walking bag of contradictions. Don't stand outside Scotland by tradition.

Greens (3.8%): REALLY Hippy liberals, kinda Lib Dem+. Tend to make sense when talking about the environment, less so when talking about anything else.

Plaid Cymru (0.6%): A mix of the Greens and SNP but for Wales. Insist upon talking a moribund language at every available opportunity.

BNP (<0.1%): Hard racists, for the skinheads who think Hitler may have had some good points. Including them because they used to be more of a thing, polling up to 5% of the vote. . . . . pretty much all their vote switched to UKIP.
What a fantastic choice ;) Been voting since 1987 and I still can't get over the rubbish we have to vote for.

You did forget the Monster Raving Loony Party (<0.1) - "had an advantage over all the other parties, in that they knew they were loonies."
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Post by RegisterMe » Mon, 24. Apr 17, 14:21

Morkonan wrote:Is there any perceived notion of a struggle between socioeconomic political "ideals." For instance, Socialism vs Capitalism is a fairly strong theme in the US.
Yes, but it's more nuanced than that, has evolved over time, and continues to evolve, perhaps more in the direction of "open v closed" rather than "capitalism v socialism".

Pre the mid 1990s you had an economically liberal free market oriented Conservative party v a socialist government intervention Labour party. They swapped power reasonably regularly, at least up until the advent of Thatcher who locked Labour out of power for 15 odd years.

Then Blair arrived and stole much of the Conservative clothing in the form of liberal economics, free markets, reforms to public service etc, and promptly kicked the (frankly sclerotic) Conservatives out. They held on to power for another 15 odd years before the electorate tired of them (much to do with the second Iraq war too imho).

Following the crash of 2008 they were booted out to be replaced by a Conservative - Liberal Democrat (the "third force in UK politics") coalition that lasted one term.

However, during all the above, there were other forces in play, notably the rise of the SNP in Scotland (who's raison d'etre is an independent Scotland) and the rise of UKIP (who's raison d'etre was leaving the EU, and now seems to be to continue to exist for reasons undefined). Another important parallel strand has been the Conservative conflict over the EU, which has riven the party for the last forty years. The tensions there led directly to Cameron's idea for the referendum, which he expected to win, and ended up loosing.

Today we have a Conservative government with a small majority committed to leading the country out of the UK. We have a Labour party that has a split personality - you have a post-industrial Brexit believing cohort, and a metropolitan pro-EU relaxed about immigration cohort. Not surprisingly it doesn't know what it's about any more. It's leadership is also at odds with much of its parliamentary representatives, whilst having formidable support from some of its (deluded imho) membership.
Morkonan wrote:Also: From day to day, how much of a U.K. Citizen's life does that citizen feel is impacted directly by their government? And, how much of this do they actually get ticked off about? Just taxes? Jobs? Television regulations? Housing? Privacy? - That sort of stuff.
"Impacted directly by their government" is an interesting phrased. Much of my life is directly impacted by my government, but nothing in my life is directly impacted by my government that I disagree with enough or that negatively effects me to such an extent that I get terribly upset about it. Note though that there will be others who have understandable grievances about one aspect or another.

The entire "US guns to protect us against an overweening state" thing simply isn't real or relevant in the UK.
Morkonan wrote:I'm also a little concerned about the rise of Nationalism and curious as to whether or not people recognise / care about it.
Yes, it's recognised, and people care about it. And it's cross-Europe too from the FN in France, to AFD in Germany, UKIP in the UK, the SNP in Scotland, the Northern League in Italy, Fidesz in Hungary, Catalan nationalists in Spain or at the eastern extreme Erdogan in Turkey.

And we can look across the Atlantic and see similar in Trump.....
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Post by Usenko » Mon, 24. Apr 17, 15:51

Australia is an interesting contrast. Compulsory voting casts a long shadow; whereas in other countries the extreme vote is worth courting, for us, the CENTRE is the part you need to claim (there will never be enough voters in the extremes to make up for a deficiency in the centre).

Therefore we have:

* The Liberal Party (Liberal in mid 20th Century terms): The party of business. Pitches itself as the party for Small Business; practically tends to favour BIG business. Centre-right, but mainly by average (contains two broad groups - "Wets" (Think American Democrats) and "Dries" (Think British Tories). Currently in power.

* The National Party: Traditionally the party of the farmers and rural conservatives; now basically Liberals who live in the Bush. Technically a separate party from the Liberals everywhere except Queensland, but since a Country/City coalition has existed in one form or another since 1923, it's a little bit strange. Tend to be a bit more right wing than the Libs, but also tend to say "how high?" when the Libs say "Jump", if perhaps with a little grumbling. :)

* The Labor Party (weirdly using the American spelling of "Labour"): The official political wing of the Trade Union movement, but under increasing pressure to dump that particular aspect of its roots as membership of trade unions continues to become a thing of the past. Therefore in the awkward position of being the only major party that clearly stands for something, but standing for something that's not really part of Australian society anymore. Generally now a centre-left party (but split into a number of formal factions, meaning there's a big brawl before every election).

In practice there is an enormous amount of overlap between Labor and the Coalition, perhaps unsurprisingly, as whoever most effectively captures the middle ground wins the election.

The Coalition or the Labor party will win every election. However, the minor parties play a role because with preferential voting, they have the right to attempt to tell their voters how to vote.

There are hundreds of minor parties, but the most important are:

* Greens: About what you'd expect. The usual combination of scientifically-literate environmentalists and vegan anti-vax hippies, but with the scientist faction being ascendant for now on every issue except nuclear energy (and a bit of a question mark on genetic modification).

* Liberal Democrats: Nobody's really sure what these people are about, but they have a senate seat. :)

* Palmer United Party: In the process of disbanding. Clive Palmer was a multimillionaire[1] and generated a lot of hype like a certain orange-haired individual. However, his party proved ironically named, as even with their small band of senators they have cheerfully self-destructed.

* One Nation: If Palmer is Australia's answer to Trump as a businessman, Pauline Hanson and her One Nation party is our answer to his disaffected white racist mystique, and is therefore popular in Queensland (the "Deep North". :) ). Currently running on an anti-Muslim/anti-refugee platform, and doing well[2], I'm sad to say.


[1] I am not sure how much of his wealth is real. He has some mining interests that are quite lucrative, but he shows signs of not being as wealthy as he claims.

[2] Minor-party well, of course - the system does not allow her to actually become Prime Minister unless she becomes leader of one of the major parties[3], and neither the Coalition nor the Labor party would touch her with a 40 foot pole!

[3] It is theoretically possible for a minor party to displace a major party and form government, but in the 116 year history of the Commonwealth of Australia this has not come close to happening by orders of magnitude. Instead, major parties have dissolved and re-formed in a different guise. In fact, the current major parties have remained practically unchanged since the 1950s (albeit the Country Party changed its name to National Party).
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