May Calls General election

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Morkonan
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Post by Morkonan » Sun, 23. Apr 17, 21:32

brucewarren wrote:I'll have a go but bear in mind that it's politics so there is bound to be a lot of bias in the answer...
That stuff was pretty informative to a neophyte, thanks!

Is there any perceived notion of a struggle between socioeconomic political "ideals." For instance, Socialism vs Capitalism is a fairly strong theme in the US.

Yet, in the U.K., from a "a generic 'Murican's" point of view, there are plenty of "socialized" institutions, services, etc that many in the U.K. seem to not mind very much or, at least, don't speak out about in regards to the Holy Struggle Against Communism and Socialism in Today's Enlightened World of Capitalism, Liberty and FREEEDOOOOM! :)

Also: From day to day, how much of a U.K. Citizen's life does that citizen feel is impacted directly by their government? And, how much of this do they actually get ticked off about? Just taxes? Jobs? Television regulations? Housing? Privacy? - That sort of stuff.

Why ask these things? Because, I'm interested in how forum members view their government and how they feel their lives are effected by their choice of government(s) and political leaders. I'm also a little concerned about the rise of Nationalism and curious as to whether or not people recognize/care about it.

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Post by Bishop149 » Mon, 24. Apr 17, 13:34

@Mork

Ha! A fun exercise, I'll have a go. Ordering by vote share at last election and ignoring the ones I know nothing about, notably the NI parties . . . . all I know about them is that Sinn Fein is the IRA one. Like brucewarren disclaimer for my own lefty bias.

Conservatives (36.9%): The party of the rich, ultra rich and old. Screws anyone not in the top tax bracket for the benefit of those that are. . . . and pensioners (the latter being their core vote base). Long called "The Nasty Party" by their critics.

Labour (30.4%): Self styled "party of the workers", socialists perhaps even a little communist. At least 30 years ago they were, since Blair essentially soft conservatives. Their leader (and membership) are now trying to turn the clock back and return to their roots and core values, so the party is essentially at war with itself.

UKIP (12.6%): Soft racists, the party for people with "legitimate concerns about immigration" and who prefix sentences with "I'm not racist but. . . . ". Stated reason to exist was to leave the EU, now that's achieved they seem to have decide their new direction is to be a more modern version of the BNP, unsurprising given their vote base. Basically the reason we're leaving the EU is because the conservatives panicked and kneejerked over UKIP stealing about 1.5% of their vote base. Yes really. . . . . .

Lib Dems (7.9%): Hippy liberals. . . . in theory, in practice not especially liberal at all. The party of sounding sensible but not ever really having to deliver. Were expected to deliver in 2010 and royally betrayed everyone that voted for them. No credibility left.

SNP (4.7%): A more sensible socialist party that is also ultra nationalist. . . . but only about Scotland. A walking bag of contradictions. Don't stand outside Scotland by tradition.

Greens (3.8%): REALLY Hippy liberals, kinda Lib Dem+. Tend to make sense when talking about the environment, less so when talking about anything else.

Plaid Cymru (0.6%): A mix of the Greens and SNP but for Wales. Insist upon talking a moribund language at every available opportunity.

BNP (<0.1%): Hard racists, for the skinheads who think Hitler may have had some good points. Including them because they used to be more of a thing, polling up to 5% of the vote. . . . . pretty much all their vote switched to UKIP.
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Post by Redvers Ganderpoke » Mon, 24. Apr 17, 14:16

Bishop149 wrote:@Mork

Ha! A fun exercise, I'll have a go. Ordering by vote share at last election and ignoring the ones I know nothing about, notably the NI parties . . . . all I know about them is that Sinn Fein is the IRA one. Like brucewarren disclaimer for my own lefty bias.

Conservatives (36.9%): The party of the rich, ultra rich and old. Screws anyone not in the top tax bracket for the benefit of those that are. . . . and pensioners (the latter being their core vote base). Long called "The Nasty Party" by their critics.

Labour (30.4%): Self styled "party of the workers", socialists perhaps even a little communist. At least 30 years ago they were, since Blair essentially soft conservatives. Their leader (and membership) are now trying to turn the clock back and return to their roots and core values, so the party is essentially at war with itself.

UKIP (12.6%): Soft racists, the party for people with "legitimate concerns about immigration" and who prefix sentences with "I'm not racist but. . . . ". Stated reason to exist was to leave the EU, now that's achieved they seem to have decide their new direction is to be a more modern version of the BNP, unsurprising given their vote base. Basically the reason we're leaving the EU is because the conservatives panicked and kneejerked over UKIP stealing about 1.5% of their vote base. Yes really. . . . . .

Lib Dems (7.9%): Hippy liberals. . . . in theory, in practice not especially liberal at all. The party of sounding sensible but not ever really having to deliver. Were expected to deliver in 2010 and royally betrayed everyone that voted for them. No credibility left.

SNP (4.7%): A more sensible socialist party that is also ultra nationalist. . . . but only about Scotland. A walking bag of contradictions. Don't stand outside Scotland by tradition.

Greens (3.8%): REALLY Hippy liberals, kinda Lib Dem+. Tend to make sense when talking about the environment, less so when talking about anything else.

Plaid Cymru (0.6%): A mix of the Greens and SNP but for Wales. Insist upon talking a moribund language at every available opportunity.

BNP (<0.1%): Hard racists, for the skinheads who think Hitler may have had some good points. Including them because they used to be more of a thing, polling up to 5% of the vote. . . . . pretty much all their vote switched to UKIP.
What a fantastic choice ;) Been voting since 1987 and I still can't get over the rubbish we have to vote for.

You did forget the Monster Raving Loony Party (<0.1) - "had an advantage over all the other parties, in that they knew they were loonies."
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Post by RegisterMe » Mon, 24. Apr 17, 14:21

Morkonan wrote:Is there any perceived notion of a struggle between socioeconomic political "ideals." For instance, Socialism vs Capitalism is a fairly strong theme in the US.
Yes, but it's more nuanced than that, has evolved over time, and continues to evolve, perhaps more in the direction of "open v closed" rather than "capitalism v socialism".

Pre the mid 1990s you had an economically liberal free market oriented Conservative party v a socialist government intervention Labour party. They swapped power reasonably regularly, at least up until the advent of Thatcher who locked Labour out of power for 15 odd years.

Then Blair arrived and stole much of the Conservative clothing in the form of liberal economics, free markets, reforms to public service etc, and promptly kicked the (frankly sclerotic) Conservatives out. They held on to power for another 15 odd years before the electorate tired of them (much to do with the second Iraq war too imho).

Following the crash of 2008 they were booted out to be replaced by a Conservative - Liberal Democrat (the "third force in UK politics") coalition that lasted one term.

However, during all the above, there were other forces in play, notably the rise of the SNP in Scotland (who's raison d'etre is an independent Scotland) and the rise of UKIP (who's raison d'etre was leaving the EU, and now seems to be to continue to exist for reasons undefined). Another important parallel strand has been the Conservative conflict over the EU, which has riven the party for the last forty years. The tensions there led directly to Cameron's idea for the referendum, which he expected to win, and ended up loosing.

Today we have a Conservative government with a small majority committed to leading the country out of the UK. We have a Labour party that has a split personality - you have a post-industrial Brexit believing cohort, and a metropolitan pro-EU relaxed about immigration cohort. Not surprisingly it doesn't know what it's about any more. It's leadership is also at odds with much of its parliamentary representatives, whilst having formidable support from some of its (deluded imho) membership.
Morkonan wrote:Also: From day to day, how much of a U.K. Citizen's life does that citizen feel is impacted directly by their government? And, how much of this do they actually get ticked off about? Just taxes? Jobs? Television regulations? Housing? Privacy? - That sort of stuff.
"Impacted directly by their government" is an interesting phrased. Much of my life is directly impacted by my government, but nothing in my life is directly impacted by my government that I disagree with enough or that negatively effects me to such an extent that I get terribly upset about it. Note though that there will be others who have understandable grievances about one aspect or another.

The entire "US guns to protect us against an overweening state" thing simply isn't real or relevant in the UK.
Morkonan wrote:I'm also a little concerned about the rise of Nationalism and curious as to whether or not people recognise / care about it.
Yes, it's recognised, and people care about it. And it's cross-Europe too from the FN in France, to AFD in Germany, UKIP in the UK, the SNP in Scotland, the Northern League in Italy, Fidesz in Hungary, Catalan nationalists in Spain or at the eastern extreme Erdogan in Turkey.

And we can look across the Atlantic and see similar in Trump.....
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Post by Usenko » Mon, 24. Apr 17, 15:51

Australia is an interesting contrast. Compulsory voting casts a long shadow; whereas in other countries the extreme vote is worth courting, for us, the CENTRE is the part you need to claim (there will never be enough voters in the extremes to make up for a deficiency in the centre).

Therefore we have:

* The Liberal Party (Liberal in mid 20th Century terms): The party of business. Pitches itself as the party for Small Business; practically tends to favour BIG business. Centre-right, but mainly by average (contains two broad groups - "Wets" (Think American Democrats) and "Dries" (Think British Tories). Currently in power.

* The National Party: Traditionally the party of the farmers and rural conservatives; now basically Liberals who live in the Bush. Technically a separate party from the Liberals everywhere except Queensland, but since a Country/City coalition has existed in one form or another since 1923, it's a little bit strange. Tend to be a bit more right wing than the Libs, but also tend to say "how high?" when the Libs say "Jump", if perhaps with a little grumbling. :)

* The Labor Party (weirdly using the American spelling of "Labour"): The official political wing of the Trade Union movement, but under increasing pressure to dump that particular aspect of its roots as membership of trade unions continues to become a thing of the past. Therefore in the awkward position of being the only major party that clearly stands for something, but standing for something that's not really part of Australian society anymore. Generally now a centre-left party (but split into a number of formal factions, meaning there's a big brawl before every election).

In practice there is an enormous amount of overlap between Labor and the Coalition, perhaps unsurprisingly, as whoever most effectively captures the middle ground wins the election.

The Coalition or the Labor party will win every election. However, the minor parties play a role because with preferential voting, they have the right to attempt to tell their voters how to vote.

There are hundreds of minor parties, but the most important are:

* Greens: About what you'd expect. The usual combination of scientifically-literate environmentalists and vegan anti-vax hippies, but with the scientist faction being ascendant for now on every issue except nuclear energy (and a bit of a question mark on genetic modification).

* Liberal Democrats: Nobody's really sure what these people are about, but they have a senate seat. :)

* Palmer United Party: In the process of disbanding. Clive Palmer was a multimillionaire[1] and generated a lot of hype like a certain orange-haired individual. However, his party proved ironically named, as even with their small band of senators they have cheerfully self-destructed.

* One Nation: If Palmer is Australia's answer to Trump as a businessman, Pauline Hanson and her One Nation party is our answer to his disaffected white racist mystique, and is therefore popular in Queensland (the "Deep North". :) ). Currently running on an anti-Muslim/anti-refugee platform, and doing well[2], I'm sad to say.


[1] I am not sure how much of his wealth is real. He has some mining interests that are quite lucrative, but he shows signs of not being as wealthy as he claims.

[2] Minor-party well, of course - the system does not allow her to actually become Prime Minister unless she becomes leader of one of the major parties[3], and neither the Coalition nor the Labor party would touch her with a 40 foot pole!

[3] It is theoretically possible for a minor party to displace a major party and form government, but in the 116 year history of the Commonwealth of Australia this has not come close to happening by orders of magnitude. Instead, major parties have dissolved and re-formed in a different guise. In fact, the current major parties have remained practically unchanged since the 1950s (albeit the Country Party changed its name to National Party).
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Post by Antilogic » Mon, 24. Apr 17, 17:03


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Post by Bishop149 » Mon, 24. Apr 17, 17:20

http://uk.isidewith.com/results/3112738995

Ha! I find it quite amusing that the Tories are at the bottom below both UKIP and the BNP for me.
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Post by RegisterMe » Mon, 24. Apr 17, 17:30

http://uk.isidewith.com/results/3112775978

Sums up my dilemma perfectly :).
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Post by Antilogic » Mon, 24. Apr 17, 18:10

RM: "Do I be very indecisive or only really indecisive? Choices...Choices..........."

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Post by RegisterMe » Mon, 24. Apr 17, 18:33

Antilogic wrote:RM: "Do I be very indecisive or only really indecisive? Choices...Choices..........."
Less indecisive and more liking and disliking in equal measure. But it doesn't leave me in an easy place when it comes to actually choosing somebody to vote for.
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Post by Chips » Mon, 24. Apr 17, 21:16

Morkonan wrote: Also: From day to day, how much of a U.K. Citizen's life does that citizen feel is impacted directly by their government? And, how much of this do they actually get ticked off about? Just taxes? Jobs? Television regulations? Housing? Privacy? - That sort of stuff.
I've not noticed anything between Labour, Conservative + Lib, Conservative to me personally so far (well, more money in my pay from the increase in personal tax allowance, and increased ISA savings from increase in that allowance).

Maybe with Brexit that'll change, but so far (economically) its had zero impact. Then again, not married, don't have kids and in reasonable enough health that don't visit the NHS enough not notice if it's better/worse/the same as it has always been - so most of my perspective would be economic.

As you become more reliant or dependent upon the social services of the country I'd imagine that changes - in some circumstances quite significantly.

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Post by Stars_InTheirEyes » Mon, 24. Apr 17, 22:20

https://uk.isidewith.com/results/3113720097
65% Labour
60% Lib Dems
52% Tories


Maybe we need a new 'centrist' party...
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Post by Ripskar » Tue, 25. Apr 17, 18:35

The Tories should be a centre-right party, however since tbe referendum they seem to have taken a disturbing lurch to the far right.

Labour were once centre-left but Corbyn is all out class war like something from a previous millenium dug up reanimated and lurching in the vague direction of "brains..."

The coalition is probably the best government we've ever had, but I can't see the Lib-Dems pulling anything similar off this time. They at least still seem to be standing in the centre... Given that the British electorate is essentially centrist all they'd have to do is shoot holes in the Tories far right BS cause they can ignore Labour, only the nut jobs would vote for Corbyn.


UKIP is irrelavent, it's vaguely entertaining watching them implode.

Plaid Cymru are a bunch of cutthroats crooks and conmen who'd tell you their farts smelt of daffodils.
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Post by pjknibbs » Tue, 25. Apr 17, 22:13

Ripskar wrote: The coalition is probably the best government we've ever had, but I can't see the Lib-Dems pulling anything similar off this time.
Even if they were in a position to, Tim Farron has publically ruled out any idea of going into coalition with either Conservatives or Labour. Hardly surprising, considering that their last coalition was electoral suicide--they went from 23% of the vote and 57 seats in 2010 to just under 8% and 8 seats in 2015.

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Post by Ripskar » Tue, 25. Apr 17, 23:38

Like May publicly ruled out an election before 2020?
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Post by pjknibbs » Wed, 26. Apr 17, 08:35

Well, I kind of hope Farron has more integrity than she has, but we'll have to see what happens in the unlikely event that there's a hung parliament which the Lib Dems could resolve by going into coalition.

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Post by mrbadger » Wed, 26. Apr 17, 19:48

I wonder what the voter turnout will be. I'm thinking it'll return to the usual pre referendum low level.

That was rather an exception to the norm.
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Post by greypanther » Thu, 11. May 17, 21:26

Well, here is a link to which seats are safest and which the most marginal. Several Lib Dems close to signing on on June the 9th... :roll:

Here, is an article about Labours leaked manifesto and here is Guido Fawkes offering the full text.
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Post by Golden_Gonads » Thu, 11. May 17, 22:07

mrbadger wrote:I wonder what the voter turnout will be. I'm thinking it'll return to the usual pre referendum low level.

That was rather an exception to the norm.
I'm thinking higher than average levels, with the next turnout being much lower.

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Post by Terre » Wed, 24. May 17, 09:45

On page 82 of the Conservative manifesto, under the heading "A FRAMEWORK FOR DATA AND
THE DIGITAL ECONOMY", are the plans for a UK fire walled garden.

I think they were hoping that nobody could be bothered to read that far, the pdf is only 88 pages long. - Link a pdf
Some people say that it is not for government to regulate when it comes to technology
and the internet.
We disagree. While we cannot create this framework alone, it is for
government, not private companies, to protect the security of people and ensure the
fairness of the rules by which people and businesses abide. Nor do we agree that the
risks of such an approach outweigh the potential benefits. It is in the interests of stable
markets that consumers are protected from abusive behaviour, that money is able to
flow freely and securely, and that competition between businesses takes place on a level
playing field. It is in no-one’s interest for the foundations of strong societies and stable
democracies – the rule of law, privacy and security – to be undermined.
So we will establish a regulatory framework in law to underpin our digital charter and
to ensure that digital companies, social media platforms and content providers abide
by these principles. We will introduce a sanctions regime to ensure compliance, giving
regulators the ability to fine or prosecute those companies that fail in their legal duties,
and to order the removal of content where it clearly breaches UK law. We will also create
a power in law for government to introduce an industry-wide levy from social media
companies and communication service providers to support awareness and preventative
activity to counter internet harms, just as is already the case with the gambling industry.
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