Why was Bungiee never accused for fraud?

Dreez · Post by **Dreez** » Sun, 4. Jun 17, 13:58

It's an old topic but still one that is very interesting to me in terms of lying to your customers about a product and then
taking the money from the customers, knowing full and well that you haven't kept your part of the promised things.
I'm talking about all the promises around Destiny, all the things that were told to their customers and when the final
product was released, most of the promised features wasn't available or removed completely - rendering the product
something totally different from what they paid for.

Granted that gamers still has the options to wait for reviews instead of blindly going after what they've been promised,
and considering how the "market" looks now; with deceit and marketingscams every year; you'd think that the customers
would learn and know better.

But in this case for example, Bungiee knowingly lied to the costumers by continuing to base their hype on their product
despite the game changing course drastically in the last months of development, due to the bosses not beeing happy
and taking away most of the finished content.

So Bungie was continuing to advertise their game as before..

Open world to explore - Turned out to be a blatant lie since the world is severely restricted by the red line of death.
Engaging NPCs - Turned out to be forgettable and boring with literally no story to them that was engaging in any way.
Fully costumizable Characters - Totally missing, no customization what so ever, you look what you wear and no costumes.

A company that continues to advertise about their product according to the OLD direction and content while this is no
longer relevant, is FRAUD, no matter how you twist it. It's like a carmanufacturer who promises that your car will
have 4wd and a very fuel-efficient engine.
Then when you buy the car, it only has Rearwheeldrive and runs on a hungry V8 engine that drinks 2liters/10km.

This goes for the entire industry, the issue with bait&switch, promising the Boeing 747 but giving you the 1 Engine Sessna.

And for icing on the cake, Bungiee promised a 10year plan for constantly updated content and polishing,
but not even 1 year after Destiny was released, Bungiee was already planning on Destiny 2, which would pull staff and
developmentresources away from Destiny... Basically pulling manpower away from the maintenance they promised.

So... why was Bungiee never taken to court for fraud ?

Chips · Post by **Chips** » Sun, 4. Jun 17, 14:09

Most likely because you've not employed a lawyer and summoned them to court to answer for it? Then again, you can't spell the company name so...

Anyway GLWT as they say, let us know how you get on.

Dreez · Post by **Dreez** » Sun, 4. Jun 17, 14:16

Well... Maybe if the playercommunity would nut up and taken them to court for fraud and won, forcing Bungiee
to payup bigtime... maybe it would've sent a much needed message to the rest - don't promise shit you can't deliver on.
If i had the money, i would hire lawyer and go after them.. Maybe it's worth doing if you sign away 100% of the money
fined as payment to the lawyer.

Fraud should always be punishable, especially within gamedevelopment where it's abundant these days.

Chips · Post by **Chips** » Sun, 4. Jun 17, 14:27

The Judge would let you know if it were fraud; you'd have to prove it.
And no, you saying "but it is, but it is" doesn't constitute proof.

Dreez · Post by **Dreez** » Sun, 4. Jun 17, 14:41

a person or thing intended to deceive others, typically by unjustifiably claiming or being credited with accomplishments or qualities.

That's the definition of Fraud.

And in this case, Bungiee's management made drastic changes to the game, pulling most of the promised content
and changing most of the promised gameplay, yet they never pulled their old commercials or adverts, and never
informed their customers about these huge changes.

Thereby selling a product according to the old adverts, despite major changes that totally changed the product.

Sounds like a clear case to me.

eladan · Post by **eladan** » Sun, 4. Jun 17, 14:53

Dreez wrote:
a person or thing intended to deceive others, typically by unjustifiably claiming or being credited with accomplishments or qualities.
That's the definition of Fraud.

...

Sounds like a clear case to me.

The game itself is not designed to deceive others, so no, this is not fraud. False advertising is the law you are after here. But if you go after them for false advertising, I've got, oh, about a billion other companies that should be added to the list.

Chips · Post by **Chips** » Sun, 4. Jun 17, 17:09

Dreez wrote:Sounds like a clear case to me.

This is why courts exist instead of lynch mob mentality. They have a right to present a defence, instead of someone so high and mighty stating what they think they've actually done and then castigating them as guilty.

Starting to get a picture as to why no case has been brought against them now? Perhaps because they've not committed fraud, despite what you think?

Tracker001 · Post by **Tracker001** » Sun, 4. Jun 17, 17:23

Article : year 2015
Fan feedback is transforming 'Destiny' for the better
http://www.businessinsider.com/destiny- ... ion-2015-4

Article : year 2017
http://www.businessinsider.com/luke-smi ... 2017-5/#-1
"But one of the big themes in "Destiny" was the back-and-forth between the game's players and the developers at Bungie"

Drainy · Post by **Drainy** » Sun, 4. Jun 17, 18:27

Just my thoughts but I was involved in a lot of the early Alpha tests Destiny ran and they really did change things based on feedback... in the end I purchased a game that matched the description, trailer and was basically a much more polished, content rich game. I definitely didn't buy it based on early previews and concept info.

Although I'd also equally say they should have put some of the early DLC into launch and got some of the voice acting right for day one, but hey ho, its certainly miles better than some of the stuff Ubisoft gets away with these days

Morkonan · Post by **Morkonan** » Sun, 4. Jun 17, 18:37

Dreez wrote:....So... why was Bungiee never taken to court for fraud ?

What are you going to sue them for? And, when the Judge asks you what damages you have incurred as a result of Bungie's actions, what damages are you going to claim?

Bungie is responsible only for the claims that are made on the box that are not based on opinion or interpretation, but are clear descriptions of the product. Usually, the only thing that they're bound to provide is a "working" product.

If the game works, you have very little recourse no matter how badly it sucks.

No manufacturer is responsible for "in development" claims or promises. Why? Because, it's not a final product and while a product is being researched and constructed, like software, the developer can make changes at will or as necessary. They will often have to scale back their ambitions due to costs or unforeseen technical reasons.

The point is this - The game is only ever going to be what it says it is on the box. No amount of promises, no amount of pre-production hype, no amount of developer blogs will mean doodly-squat in court. The only promises they are liable for are for those that are claimed at the moment the product is released and you exchange money for it. That's the way the real world works and that's the way video game sales work too.

Nobody is entitled to anything until they have a contract, either one of simple sale or something else in writing. And, if that contract has a disclaimer regarding content or the possibility that the product's features may change over time, then that's what you're agreeing to when you hand over your money.

What you should do is to simply refuse to buy the products of publishers and developers that fail to fulfill the promises they make or, at the last, fail to try. Never get mad at a developer who really tries to produce something that has exceptional qualities but, because of unexpected costs or technical problems, realizes that it can not and must sadly inform their fans of the matter. That's just part of the development process.

jack775544 · Post by **jack775544** » Mon, 5. Jun 17, 09:38

To be honest there is nothing you can get them on. The things you mentioned specifically are things that are either subjective or something they just did badly.

Open world to explore - Turned out to be a blatant lie since the world is severely restricted by the red line of death.

Compared to games like Call of Duty, they do have an open world. Just because it is a very limited open world doesn't mean that it is not open.

Engaging NPCs - Turned out to be forgettable and boring with literally no story to them that was engaging in any way.

Entirely subjective, some people out there surely loved the characters.

Fully costumizable Characters - Totally missing, no customization what so ever, you look what you wear and no costumes.

You can control the look of your character. Just because the control is limited in scope doesn't mean that they were wrong.

In short Bungie have always been telling the truth, but the truth doesn't always have to be the nicest interpretation of it. Even if those claims were outright incorrect, I very highly doubt there could ever be a court case that would stand up.

BigBANGtheory · Post by **BigBANGtheory** » Mon, 5. Jun 17, 10:28

Legally....

1. A promise is not necessarily a contract, laws in this matter are governed by contracts.

2. As a consumer your legal recourse is against the trader i.e. the person that sold you the product not the company that made it expect in circumstances where there is clearly a defect of some kind.

What you can do is make a complaint regarding false advertising where by a government body might act or if you feel particularly aggrieved just stop purchasing Bungie products.

Bungie have not been taken to court for fraud because there is nothing to prove they have committed fraud.

Jericho · Post by **Jericho** » Mon, 5. Jun 17, 12:55

If the recent legal issues around the advertising and misleading interviews with Sean Murray about No Man's Sky get treated as "No harm, no foul" when he is clearly shown Lying in interviews, then good luck with this one against Bungie.

I grew up on ZX Spectrum games in the 1980s. The games came on cassette with amazing cover art, and a description on the back of the box that made the game sound like it was going to be the bigger than The Karate Kid (if you can even imagine such a thing).

The game itself of course was a 8x8 pixel blob of a single color that flickered around the screen clashing-colors with other 8x8 pixel blobs that went "BEEP".

(Yes, I know that I'm being unfair to the good games. But let us try to remember that for every 'good' game there were 342 games that were just as I described).

RAVEN.myst · Post by **RAVEN.myst** » Mon, 5. Jun 17, 14:25

Caveat emptor.

TSM · Post by **TSM** » Mon, 5. Jun 17, 16:26

If they start on devs lying about things then politicians the world over are screwed

I miss ZX Spectum "insert tape 2 side 2 to turn left"

BigBANGtheory · Post by **BigBANGtheory** » Tue, 6. Jun 17, 00:04

RAVEN.myst wrote:Caveat emptor.

Indeed, OP needs to get street wise regarding law.

1st rule of understanding law is that it's not about right/wrong its about what is or is not effected by law. Once you grasp that concept your on your way the rest is knowledge...

lawyers/solicitors are knowledgable persons on law making legal arguments

egosoft.com

egosoft.com

Why was Bungiee never accused for fraud?

Why was Bungiee never accused for fraud?

Re: Why was Bungiee never accused for fraud?