X4 - Should we scrap boosters and stick to jump drive?

[spankahontis]

I can think of at least one way to make it more interesting: following clues, or a bread-crumb trail

which compacts the entire deep space thing tremendeously. Because suddenly you know where things are. You are not stumbling on this by accident or because you looked around, you are guided in on it, because you would never be able to find it without this guidance.

If you can just stumble upon these things you mentioned, they wouldnt be in deep space (unless your definition of deep space is very shallow). If they are far out, you would would not find them without beeing guided to them - because space, even in X series, is vast and a miniscule minority will be filled with things you can actually discover -> Chance of accidental discovery goes to 0. The 3rd dimension added compared to "world based" games is the main "problem" here.

It wouldn't be placed customizable, such unique missions would be procedurally generated (which most missions in Rebirth generally are), so Egosoft wouldn't be going crazy on new scripting as allot of what needs to be done is already in the game.
You fly into empty space, a percentage chance of the missions triggering if you long range scan a specific region of space.

OK, I'm afraid here you are missing the point somewhat, and kinda contradicting yourself: on the one hand you criticize some prior points because they would require tedious thorough examination of vast amounts of space; yet on the other hand you naysay other ideas because they would contract space. Relative motion of celestial bodies combined with vast space obviates both of those: the whole point of rare and remote sites that can be scanned by good fortune or located by following otherwise-acquired clues is that it is NOT about painstakingly scanning each cubic centimetre. In fact, making that an impossible task is a major point in all this, as the vastness of space is such that such a task would be unimaginably impractical. This is where that random generation comes into play - on a given "warp" (or whatever) between two points of significance, there could be an infinitesimally small chance of stumbling on something (adjusted upward by object's mass/volume/energy output) - consider, for example, flying through the asteroid belt between Mars and Jupiter's orbits - the chances of actually hitting something are really really small (asteroid belts in Rebirth, and space games and sci-fi movies etc in general, are routinely depicted as being absurdly dense). However, if you have specialised surveying/exploration sensors, you then increase those odds into the realms of the possible in practical terms. IMPORTANT: The object need not exist in-game until such time as it is "discovered" - the act of observing it successfully causes it to come into existence, so to speak [Hmmm, could name the deep-space sensors the Schrodinger Searchlight, or Quantum Scanner, or something similar] - ie. a successful roll against the sensor's chance of success instantiates the location or the clue that initiates the trail to it. Would quartering every cubic foot of space increase the odds of finding something? Yes, but only insofar as it is leading to more sensor success checks to be rolled - the same effect could be achieved more easily by running up and down the same route and letting the "dice" get rerolled repeatedly (this ONLY makes sense in a dynamically moving universe, though, from a consistency point of view, as otherwise shit is just materialising where it wasn't five minutes ago "I've been driving on this road for 15 years, and never before was that tree there - it wasn't there when I came by this morning either! What's going on here?" Answer: booze! ) This would have the side-effect of not-yet-generated content not consuming system resources - it gets put into memory only when it has been discovered (which I'm sure is how a lot of even permanent content is being handled whenever possible, to conserve RAM.)

There are no absolutes in space, and there is no such thing as a truly "stationary" object - be it in so-called "outer" space or your bathroom cabinet - it is all relative to a particular frame of reference. Therefore, the method of "systematically" searching all of a game's space volume isn't really remotely realistic - it makes more sense to radiate the intensity of search/exploration activities as decaying probability curves radiating from landmarks/points of interest. This is even how such tasks are performed for real: a simple spiral search pattern is initiated usually at a point of highest probability (although sometimes dictated instead by convenience) and expands; every successive "whorl" is longer and thus each revolution takes longer - the farther you get from your landmark, the slower the searching goes. Sometimes the "landmark" is not a point, but a line - say, a road, for instance: if you are looking for derailed trains, you start your search AT the railway track, not 5 miles away. In a vast and mostly empty space, points of reference are even more important, because you don't have an environmental frame of reference. Anyhow, I'm digressing on a wild tangent here - when I started this part, I had some "very important" point to make - I have no idea what it may have been! hahahahah

So, time for me to go actually PLAY something! More fun...
Happy hunting!

I've watched enough Universe documentaries to know that Space is full of wonders and scary things that cause massive damage.

- Asteroid field showers (Causing great damage to stations/ships alike)
- Micro Asteroid shower (Like bullets that can decimate ships if you fly into them.)
- Balls of heated plasma coming from stars that can damage shields and systems of a ship.
- Black Holes.
- Mini Black Holes.
- Gravitational anomalies.
- Gas clouds that can be ignited causing massive explosions.

[UniTrader]

I can think of at least one way to make it more interesting: following clues, or a bread-crumb trail

which compacts the entire deep space thing tremendeously. Because suddenly you know where things are. You are not stumbling on this by accident or because you looked around, you are guided in on it, because you would never be able to find it without this guidance.

If you can just stumble upon these things you mentioned, they wouldnt be in deep space (unless your definition of deep space is very shallow). If they are far out, you would would not find them without beeing guided to them - because space, even in X series, is vast and a miniscule minority will be filled with things you can actually discover -> Chance of accidental discovery goes to 0. The 3rd dimension added compared to "world based" games is the main "problem" here.

It wouldn't be placed customizable, such unique missions would be procedurally generated (which most missions in Rebirth generally are), so Egosoft wouldn't be going crazy on new scripting as allot of what needs to be done is already in the game.
You fly into empty space, a percentage chance of the missions triggering if you long range scan a specific region of space.

so basically "fly in a random direction and you will eventually find something"? i dont like that approach. seems too pre-determined that you must find something eventually, even when you just fly straight without any logic or system behind it.
what about placing "Event Points" in the Sectors (randomly shuffled, but consistend within a Savegame), distributed in such a way that you are very unlikely to find any with random Scounting (each is at least 50km away from the closest sign of Civilisation, possibly even in the hundreds), BUT you can buy Sensor Drones which can be sent scouting in your looking Direction. They will give Feedback when they encounter something and then you can have a look yourself what they encountered. Also you can (and should) send off many of them simultaneously to cover a bigger Area/Volume in the same time. Also sucess is not pre-determined but depends on Luck and how good your Search System is. Also allows the Trading with Hints for hidden Stuff (either get Hints where to find Stuff or Trade the Findings of your Drones for a quick Buck if you dont want to spend the time looking after them)

[spankahontis]

I can think of at least one way to make it more interesting: following clues, or a bread-crumb trail

which compacts the entire deep space thing tremendeously. Because suddenly you know where things are. You are not stumbling on this by accident or because you looked around, you are guided in on it, because you would never be able to find it without this guidance.

If you can just stumble upon these things you mentioned, they wouldnt be in deep space (unless your definition of deep space is very shallow). If they are far out, you would would not find them without beeing guided to them - because space, even in X series, is vast and a miniscule minority will be filled with things you can actually discover -> Chance of accidental discovery goes to 0. The 3rd dimension added compared to "world based" games is the main "problem" here.

It wouldn't be placed customizable, such unique missions would be procedurally generated (which most missions in Rebirth generally are), so Egosoft wouldn't be going crazy on new scripting as allot of what needs to be done is already in the game.
You fly into empty space, a percentage chance of the missions triggering if you long range scan a specific region of space.

so basically "fly in a random direction and you will eventually find something"? i dont like that approach. seems too pre-determined that you must find something eventually, even when you just fly straight without any logic or system behind it.
what about placing "Event Points" in the Sectors (randomly shuffled, but consistend within a Savegame), distributed in such a way that you are very unlikely to find any with random Scounting (each is at least 50km away from the closest sign of Civilisation, possibly even in the hundreds), BUT you can buy Sensor Drones which can be sent scouting in your looking Direction. They will give Feedback when they encounter something and then you can have a look yourself what they encountered. Also you can (and should) send off many of them simultaneously to cover a bigger Area/Volume in the same time. Also sucess is not pre-determined but depends on Luck and how good your Search System is. Also allows the Trading with Hints for hidden Stuff (either get Hints where to find Stuff or Trade the Findings of your Drones for a quick Buck if you dont want to spend the time looking after them)

Can do, a placeholder that appears in every empty zone, a percentage chance to trigger an event?

Or better still only certain events trigger per sector.. A system rich in asteroids makes asteroid showers more frequent, unique missions like a damaged ship to rescue, explore, repair/claim?
I liked how you had unique missions in Toride like the distress calls and the Xenon Incursion.. Give Systems unique natural phenomenon and events; it gives each system it's unique personality and for each X Player will draw them to a particular favourite based on their play style?

In a system like DeVries, even markers that cause balls of plasma that can damage ships, like if a hacker ship deactivates capital ships.

Give space natural phenomena, beautiful, but lethal. Capable of shaking up the economy.

I like your idea of trading hints with NPC's.
Or go one further, you encounter NPC's on stations with secrets that can unlock unique missions, imagine the fun you could have if you come across an NPC at a bar who talks about a huge cache of treasure, do a number of random missions or take him along with you to find this treasure?
Or an NPC tells you of a mining complex that is looking for an able pilot to conduct a series of chain missions for a huge reward?
The number of ideas for new missions and more interactivity and roleplay on stations that would actually give you reasons to go on stations would be wide and exciting.

[Lord Crc]

Give space natural phenomena, beautiful, but lethal. Capable of shaking up the economy.

Indeed. The abundance of asteroids in the inner systems in Albion always seemed so off to me. Asteroid mining should be done in the outer systems, with the extra hazards that brings.

[UniTrader]

Can do, a placeholder that appears in every empty zone, a percentage chance to trigger an event?

Or better still only certain events trigger per sector.. A system rich in asteroids makes asteroid showers more frequent, unique missions like a damaged ship to rescue, explore, repair/claim?
I liked how you had unique missions in Toride like the distress calls and the Xenon Incursion.. Give Systems unique natural phenomenon and events; it gives each system it's unique personality and for each X Player will draw them to a particular favourite based on their play style?

you entirely missed my point. the Events should NOT be randomly triggered on Zone change in my opinion, because than it has nothing to do with Searching, but with triggering the Zone Change event as often as possible to find something. and on second thought this vaguely resembles a Skinner Box. here an explaination what that is and why its bad for Games

My Idea was to Place all Findables at the Beginning of a new Game somewhere in the Vast Universe, so systemetically searching makes sense. And because Space is Huge also give the Player the Tools he needs to find these Needles in the Haystack (like Metal Detectors) - because in Space the Haystack is far bigger than in a Game played on some kind of Surface.

[Snafu_X3]

Can do, a placeholder that appears in every empty zone, a percentage chance to trigger an event?

Or better still only certain events trigger per sector.. A system rich in asteroids makes asteroid showers more frequent, unique missions like a damaged ship to rescue, explore, repair/claim?[...]

you entirely missed my point. the Events should NOT be randomly triggered on Zone change in my opinion, because than it has nothing to do with Searching, but with triggering the Zone Change event as often as possible to find something. and on second thought this vaguely resembles a Skinner Box. [...][/url]

Agreed WRT Skinner Box, but how about placing a 'seed' (ie a possibility for an event to occur) for such an item/event in (every, or randomised?) system (whether established or 'new') that only responds to LRS pings? Chance of discovery would be remote (say <0.0001% chance or less) in established areas, ramping up to small (say 1% chance) in areas calculated upon the distance from aforesaid 'established' zones? I don't /think/ that would hit CPU too hard as the seed wouldn't be activated until discovery, but you (UniT) know better than I..

As Temporary Zones are created/annulled unless some entity has a presence there the 'seed' should similarly be 'annulled' when there is no presence. This means <playership> has to fly/jump post-haste to that area before the automated <whatever> leaves it.. a possible balanced use for the JD & its coolant?

The thinking behind this is that every established zone (whether by player or NPC) has already pretty much mapped out that volume, therefore a 'chance discovery' will be really rare in those areas. Exploration ships will have the tech (scanners), personnel (a further use for Engineers? A new 'Science Officer' addition from the Scientist class, with specifics relating to their skills?) & a fast ship capable of getting out of trouble quickly if necessary. It shouldn't be well-armed/armoured tho: the space is needed for science analysis gear & there's little to do with next to no combat capabilities: it relies on its speed+maneuverability to survive

Obviously these are all off-the-cuff ideas, but it may get more ppl thinking..

[monster.zero]

The highway and booster system makes the universe incredible tiny. Makes it like a small little village where you drive your car to the store or maybe the mall.

Having jumpdrive would expand the universe immensely.



You have 2 ways to spend the players time:

1. Player spends time docking, unloading/loading, buying/selling, mining, fighting, Spends VERY little time travelling. Insta jumps to your gameplay mechanic.

Star Citizen is like this.


2. Player spends majority of time traveling, piloting the spacecraft. Unloading/loading cargo takes seconds. Outfitting takes seconds. Buying ships is a button press...no walking about the station..just get the stuff and get on with travelling.

Elite Dangerous is like this.

[UniTrader]

The highway and booster system makes the universe incredible tiny. Makes it like a small little village where you drive your car to the store or maybe the mall.

Having jumpdrive would expand the universe immensely.

err.. what??? [ external image ] i think the Jumpdrive in X2/X3 was one of the worst things for Gameplay X3 had because you (and everyone else) could travel instantly anywhere for an apple and an Egg.. no need to think about how to get around Dangerous Areas (either yourself or how you will build your empire around it) - just install and use JD on any Ship for little cost and all challenge regarding this instantly disappeared... and also it practically turned the Universe into a Village. not the other way around.

Also if you spend your Travel Time with Travelling you are X-ing wrong. What about managing your Assets during that time? (Ordering new Ships, adjusting Prices, checking Offers for your Traders, moving your Fleet around...) the issue with the Travel Times should not be solved by nulling the Travel Times but by filling them with Stuff to do...

[spankahontis]

The highway and booster system makes the universe incredible tiny. Makes it like a small little village where you drive your car to the store or maybe the mall.

Having jumpdrive would expand the universe immensely.

err.. what??? [ external image ] i think the Jumpdrive in X2/X3 was one of the worst things for Gameplay X3 had because you (and everyone else) could travel instantly anywhere for an apple and an Egg.. no need to think about how to get around Dangerous Areas (either yourself or how you will build your empire around it) - just install and use JD on any Ship for little cost and all challenge regarding this instantly disappeared... and also it practically turned the Universe into a Village. not the other way around.

Also if you spend your Travel Time with Travelling you are X-ing wrong. What about managing your Assets during that time? (Ordering new Ships, adjusting Prices, checking Offers for your Traders, moving your Fleet around...) the issue with the Travel Times should not be solved by nulling the Travel Times but by filling them with Stuff to do...

Bang on!

That was one of my favourite parts to build a large enough fleet to police Xenon Sectors that cut gate routes in half.
Build Nav Beacons, build Laser Towers and have Destroyers hold the fort.

Instantaneous travel was like changing the background wallpaper. And you couldn't explore the system you were in anyway.
Rebirth sorts the issue that TC/AP had when building a system like Sol with multiple Accelerators which just meant you would run out of space very quickly iif say.. Argon Prime or Kingdom End got the Sol Treatment with their own accelerators to expand into their systems.

[patient zero]

I forget where I saw it, but I like HelgeK's description of the "gravity drive" used by the UFOs. Select a specific destination and activate gravity shields in every direction except the one you want to go toward. Then fall with exponential acceleration halfway in that direction, reverse shield direction and fall with exponential deceleration to the final destination. I'm certain it would require good strafing skills to avoid obstacles.