Fire in London- everyone ok?

RegisterMe · Post by **RegisterMe** » Thu, 15. Jun 17, 12:49

If the final death toll comes out below 100 I will be absolutely astonished

. It could well go higher

.

Bishop149 · Post by **Bishop149** » Thu, 15. Jun 17, 12:53

To early for full facts yet so the below with a hint of disclaimer.
But some points for consideration:

- It seems likely that the "cladding" that was recently added to the building was the reason the fire spread so quickly. If the below about its primary purpose being to pretty up the tower block as part of the ongoing gentrification of the area then this is a national disgrace, social cleansing just turned deadly.
http://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/ho ... 89951.html

- I saw a resident on the News claiming that in case of fire they were told to stay put as the fireproofing of their flats would protect them for up to an hour. I initially thought he must be mistaken because that would be ridiculous. Fire doors etc are designed buy you time to evacuate, not to allow you to ignore a bloody fire!
But this is a picture of a sign from a nearby block run by the same company, he would seem to have been right. As a fire procedure that is utterly insane, the alarm is raised you evacuate, simple as.

- In yet another blow to our Prime Minister it seems she just replace her much disgraced chief advisers with the man who was responsible for mothballing a report on the fire safety of London's Tower blocks (after a very similar fire): http://www.huffingtonpost.co.uk/entry/g ... d4fbe45929

- One of the Labour parties more surprising manifesto pledges was to to ensure that private rented properties were "fit for human habitation”. Surprising because it seems unconscionable that such a law did not already exist. Labour had previously tried to add this to the law twice, and the Tories voted it down both times.
http://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/po ... 09691.html

Ezarkal · Post by **Ezarkal** » Thu, 15. Jun 17, 14:07

Bishop149 wrote:- I saw a resident on the News claiming that in case of fire they were told to stay put as the fireproofing of their flats would protect them for up to an hour. I initially thought he must be mistaken because that would be ridiculous. Fire doors etc are designed buy you time to evacuate, not to allow you to ignore a bloody fire!
But this is a picture of a sign from a nearby block run by the same company, he would seem to have been right. As a fire procedure that is utterly insane, the alarm is raised you evacuate, simple as.

Yes and no. In a correctly fireproofed building, the fire proofing of each apartment will buy it's resident a few hours before a fire can even cross the wall or the door. That delay is usually well enough for firefighters to contain a small fire, or to get to you for evacuation. So the biggest danger there should be is asphyxia from the smoke in the corridors. In that regard, it does make sense to ask people to remain indoor until assistance arrives.

Now of course, if the building isn't properly fireproofed, it becomes a deathtrap. The cladding was mentioned. I believe it make some kind of flashover effect that would explain why the fire spread so quickly.

Basically, it was a combination of poor design, neglect, insufficient regulation?? (or disrespect of existing regulation) and bad luck...

Edit: Typos

Memnoch · Post by **Memnoch** » Thu, 15. Jun 17, 17:45

I saw a fire expert on the news this morning show how a handful of that stuff that they used to clad the outer skin of the building is extremely flammable. To be honest I would be happy to use that as a BBQ starter so I'm horrified at the realisation that not only was this considered safe to use and also how many other buildings are coated with that stuff.

If I were a tenant and new about this right now I would be demanding relocation to another building or at least for that stuff to be raked off the walls.

Post by **Terre** » Fri, 16. Jun 17, 13:38

The number of known dead has increased to 30.

Ripskar · Post by **Ripskar** » Fri, 16. Jun 17, 23:05

120 families and the survivors all come from 77 of them...

felter · Post by **felter** » Sat, 17. Jun 17, 18:46

I have to say this but what a farce this has turned into. May is a joke she does not have a clue what she was doing or what should be done. The UK and local government don't know what they are doing and what needs to be done. Kensington and Chelsea council also don't have a clue what they are doing or what needs to be done either. All three of them are clueless and don't have a clue what to do and none of them are interested in listening to the effected people and what it is they require. There is no assistance on the ground around the effected area offering advice, help, support or counselling. Third world countries that have been effected by major events have handled that better than any of the branches of our government have handled this.

About the only ones who have came over as sympathetic, is the queen, which you would expect as it's not her first time doing such a thing, and I hate to say it, Jeremy Corbyn.

May has came over as cold hearted, with a touch more of I don't care. She has not done anything of note by herself, she only came over as doing something when it was mentioned to her that she was ignoring the ones effected by the tragedy, and that nearly started a riot. She needs to go, really needs to go.

The response to this tragedy is so frigging Trump like, it is embarrassing.

philip_hughes · Post by **philip_hughes** » Sun, 18. Jun 17, 01:01

Saw pictures of the burned complex. The cladding was corrugated! Building codes usually specify the construction of fire stopping walls in cavities. That cladding breached the fire protection AND provided a neat method of injecting oxygen into the heart of the flame.

Antilogic · Post by **Antilogic** » Sun, 18. Jun 17, 14:32

philip_hughes wrote:Saw pictures of the burned complex. The cladding was corrugated! Building codes usually specify the construction of fire stopping walls in cavities. That cladding breached the fire protection AND provided a neat method of injecting oxygen into the heart of the flame.

http://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/po ... 95696.html

Seems it was illegal in the UK.

Morkonan · Post by **Morkonan** » Sun, 18. Jun 17, 19:58

Antilogic wrote:
philip_hughes wrote:Saw pictures of the burned complex. The cladding was corrugated! Building codes usually specify the construction of fire stopping walls in cavities. That cladding breached the fire protection AND provided a neat method of injecting oxygen into the heart of the flame.
http://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/po ... 95696.html

Seems it was illegal in the UK.

Do they still cut off people's heads at the Tower of London? 'Cause, if you wanted to get your head cut off at the Tower of London, trying to save 2 pounds per sheet by installing flammable panels rather than the non-flammable ones would probably be how you could get your head cut off at the Tower of London.... or maybe should be.

philip_hughes · Post by **philip_hughes** » Mon, 19. Jun 17, 05:53

I heard arson in a dockyard was still punishable with death in the UK...

pjknibbs · Post by **pjknibbs** » Mon, 19. Jun 17, 09:05

philip_hughes wrote:I heard arson in a dockyard was still punishable with death in the UK...

Nope, that was abolished in 1971. Espionage ceased to be a capital crime in 1981, and all other capital crimes ceased to be so when we signed up for the European Charter on Human Rights in 1998.

Usenko · Post by **Usenko** » Mon, 19. Jun 17, 09:30

Phil, the book we got that from was printed in the 1960s!!!

Even before that, though, you couldn't actually be executed for capital crimes. Since there was no mechanism for executing a prisoner, the procedure would be for the sentence to be commuted to life.

(EDIT: At least, this was the case in Australia. Was the UK the same?)

Antilogic · Post by **Antilogic** » Mon, 19. Jun 17, 12:24

79 dead. May still increase.

pjknibbs · Post by **pjknibbs** » Mon, 19. Jun 17, 13:49

Usenko wrote: Even before that, though, you couldn't actually be executed for capital crimes. Since there was no mechanism for executing a prisoner, the procedure would be for the sentence to be commuted to life.

(EDIT: At least, this was the case in Australia. Was the UK the same?)

I don't think it was ever actually tested to any degree, since the crimes that were technically still capital offences after the death penalty for murder was abolished in 1965 were all pretty uncommon ones--I mean, setting fire to a naval dockyard and treason are not everyday events!

[EDIT] An actual update on topic--the leader of Kensington council has resigned, and they've found other buildings with the same flammable cladding:

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-40366646

felter · Post by **felter** » Sat, 24. Jun 17, 20:22

So they have so far discovered 27 blocks of flats that are a potential fire hazard, as they are covered in flammable cladding either similar to the same as the one featured in this thread or the exact same. So they have begun evacuating residents from these tower blocks due to the fear for their safety, if they go on fire, they are turning off electricity and gas to the flats to cut back on the risk of fire.

Now I want to point to a story on the BBC, there are a few of them, but I want to show just the one, where a resident is not going to leave her flat as she says she's doing it for my baby. This is total BS, she just can't be assed doing the work. If it was me and I had a baby, I would be the first in line to be wanting to get the hell out of that block of flats, no matter what it took and I would be saying, I'm doing it for my baby. What a silly ******* cow, and she thinks she is being smart.

Memnoch · Post by **Memnoch** » Sat, 24. Jun 17, 20:30

It is worrying to see the reports from the Fire Brigade when inspecting the cladding and they say they passed none of the fire safety tests.

Did they pass them before? If so, how has the criteria for passing the tests changed?

It's quite clear this isn't some isolated incident where a contractor did something they weren't supposed to. And I find it difficult to believe that lady from Camden saying on camera she was disappointed that this has been found. How could they not know? Is this willful ignorance?

pjknibbs · Post by **pjknibbs** » Sat, 24. Jun 17, 20:38

Memnoch wrote: Did they pass them before? If so, how has the criteria for passing the tests changed?

I don't think the fire brigade goes around testing every piece of cladding installed in every building. The manufacturer of the cladding will presumably get some sort of fire safety rating for the stuff as a whole, which everyone then assumes is accurate when they're commissioning builders to put the stuff onto their buildings. If said manufacturer or builder should happen to supply a material which looks the same as the fire-rated one, but is made more cheaply by, say, using a wood core encased in aluminium rather than solid aluminium--well, that's clearly just a manufacturing error or a mistake at the warehouse. Obviously.

Post by **Alan Phipps** » Sat, 24. Jun 17, 21:11

Until the official report comes in there are perhaps just too many variables at play to just assume outright malicious or illegal corner-cutting.

I am sure that panel thickness, heat-exposed surface area, enclosed volume, casing properties, etc, etc will all have impacts upon the fire containment and burn-product properties of the cladding panels. In short a panel of one shape and size judged 'safe to use' does not necessarily imply that all panels made of the same materials will inherently be safe to use.

Also the original tower block's construction may have assumed a certain single-flat internal fire maximum temperature (in the absence of unusual accelerants) with the assumed enclosure and internal barriers in place (closed firedoors and windows together with a predicted thermal leakage through the external walls and windows rather than the internal walls, ceiling and floor).

Now apply thermal cladding to say two external sides of a corner flat and what does that do to the possible max temperature from an internal fire given a suitable air feed?

I do recall one resident saying on air on the day following the fire that the tower lower floors stair firedoors were mostly wedged open because of constant use by residents rather than waiting for the poor lifts. That may not have assisted the spread of fire, but would have allowed smoke and fumes directly into the main means of escape and to other floors.

I really don't know much about these factors and so will wait for the report specific to the buildings involved.

felter · Post by **felter** » Sat, 24. Jun 17, 21:20

Also remember there was supposed to be a review on the safety of these buildings done by an MP, can't remember his name off hand. He never done that review, even though he was reminded about doing it on numerous occasions. Anyway he lost his job in the last election, but saying that, May gave him a job as one of her advisor's.

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Fire in London- everyone ok?