What if Luke has forgotten all he knew about the Force?

[brucewarren]

So I was thinking about the end of Episode 7 where Rey holds out the light-sabre for Luke to take and it suddenly occurred to me:

What if he's forgotten it all?

All the old Jedi Masters are long dead. There's no one to continue his training. What if in the intervening years,he's forgotten all he knew about how to be a Jedi?

Could that in fact be the real reason he's gone into exile. He's become so incompetent that he's afraid to show his face in society?

What do you guys think?

[X2-Illuminatus]

Considering what Luke has been through, I don't think he would be able to forget all his Jedi training. He might have not used it in a while though.

[Alan Phipps]

"All the old Jedi Masters are long dead. There's no one to continue his training."

Death has not necessarily stopped them showing up and coaching/congratulating Luke in the previous films though.

[Len5]

You don't need training to be able to beat a Sith Lord. Even a Stormtrooper that never handled a lightsaber can hold out pretty long against one.
And if someone wants training badly, the dead Jedis can still teach from the grave.

Just forget ever watching Ep7 and don't watch Ep8.

[Cpt.Jericho]

If you could do clean dishes by sheer power of mind, would you forget about it?

[thrangar]

Probably wrong here, and I am just a casual SW fan, but didn't Rey start winning the fight against Kylo after she accepted(gave in to the force)? she had no training at that time?

To me that implies all the training is wasted time?

[brucewarren]

Don't let Yoda hear you say that. Hundreds of years training the young-lings he has been and you come along and tell him worthless it is.

In the case of Rey she's extremely strong in the Force. It's not that she doesn't need training so much that she can do a few things even before she's trained up.

In the film we see her just about persuade a trooper to open the cuffs and turn away. If she'd been properly trained that trooper could have been her personal slave. Maybe half the base would have been her bitch.

[Morkonan]

Luke will turn... and then be redeemed.

That's the way his arc will end. Or, rather, that is how it should end.

I have heard rumors that Mark Hamill was very upset over Luke's storyline. But, being a pro, he committed to seeing it through as written and under the director's guidance, without further complaint.

[Ketraar]

Luke will turn... and then be redeemed.

I dont think so, I'm more inclined (possible hopeful wishing) that they will go the Grey Jedi route, that would put Star Wars on a more "realistic" track of less black&white characters and finally add some shades to them and have more conflicted characters like Han (no wonder he is one of the most beloved characters).

MFG

Ketraar

[Jericho]

Don't let Yoda hear you say that. Hundreds of years training the young-lings he has been and you come along and tell him worthless it is.

Yeah! That one afternoon of training in a swamp, and he was good enough to go up against Vader (and lose a hand). Seriously, 1 afternoon of training.

Oh, wait, the Millennium Falcon was in that asteroid field for 10 years?


Was I the only one cheering Anakin as he slaughtered those younglings?

Younglings? Annoying bunch of whiners is more like it.

[brucewarren]

@Ketraar

You want realism in a Star Wars movie

Personally I think grey jedi is a terrible idea. I don't care how modern and fashionable it might be it. I don't care how "realistic" it might seem to be in some circles. As far as I'm concerned it's right down there with midichlorians.

Vader's entire struggle becomes meaningless if he can just say to Luke "It's OK son I got this. I'm a Grey Jedi now."

@Jericho

While I don't think Han was in the field for ten years I don't think he was in there for just one day either. The Empire wouldn't be much of a galactic threat if they gave up the search that quickly.

[Ketraar]

You want realism in a Star Wars movie

I think you missed the quotes around realistic and also that it was related to characters. Yes I expect characters to be realistic within their universe. All good or all evil characters are unrealistic and cartoonish. Funny enough the cartoon version (Rebels) has more "realistic" characters than the original or prequel series.

Grey Jedi is a great idea to follow exactly cause I hate black&white characters and it allows to move away from the cartoony feel of old SW and move towards a more, yes realistic, universe where people are identifiable as person with more than one trait.

Also I dont think being a Grey Jedi is something you can just switch and hope there is a struggle to balance the force, I agree that if its just something Like can switch on or off, its bad design, but I hope they do it right.

MFG

Ketraar

[Jericho]

While I don't think Han was in the field for ten years I don't think he was in there for just one day either. The Empire wouldn't be much of a galactic threat if they gave up the search that quickly.

Their not much of a threat if they can't find them in an afternoon (and the bounty hunters can't be that good, if they know that the ship is roughly 'there' and yet they still can't find it over the weekend...)

Regardless of how long they were in the asteroid field, Luke was only having a couple of days training at the most

Anyway, I've stated before all the facts why Empire is the worst of the original trilogy


Maybe Luke has 'forgotten' everything about the force. But... Rey was holding Luke's blue saber that he lost on Bespin, and she seemed to get a lot of memories through the force when she touched it.

[Morkonan]

Luke will turn... and then be redeemed.

I dont think so, I'm more inclined (possible hopeful wishing) that they will go the Grey Jedi route, that would put Star Wars on a more "realistic" track of less black&white characters and finally add some shades to them and have more conflicted characters like Han (no wonder he is one of the most beloved characters).

That would be terrible...

Star Wars isn't "high fantasy." It's "low fantasy" heavily constructed around archetypical storytelling that just happens to be set in a science-fiction-like setting.

"Realism" is often a misunderstood concept. A lot of people think that they want "realistic" stories that are just like "real life." That's false. Nobody wants to read stories that are "realistic" in terms of "real life." They want stories that give them new experiences and those experiences are often far from "realistic."

"Realistic" actually means "consistent." Does the character act consistently, given what we know of their motivations and personality? Is the setting consistent within itself and what it draws from reality? Would that science-fiction cop actually try to wrestle with a bad-guy or would he employ some sort of "bad-guy wrestling robot" to subdue the bad-guy? The former seems like a "realistic" choice, but it would be the least desirable choice in terms of consistency in a science-fiction setting. (Depending upon the setting, of course. But, which would you rather read/see? )

Breaking with this sort of consistency, this sort of "realism", is what kills stories, especially much-beloved IPs like Star Wars.

Star Wars, as an IP, can not survive in theaters as a "realistic" movie franchise. It can not. In other formats that make up some sort of "expanded" re-imagining of the franchise, this sort of "grey" moral or ethical code could survive, but only because that segment of the mythology has its own fans. It's not better or worse, it's only a different sort of theme.

IMO, any deviation from the archetypical themes that make Star Wars a good setting and storytelling tool risks breaking it. We've seen that in the past with the "prequels" as the stories became lost in nonsensical, "inconsistent", ramblings that didn't make any sense at all when compared with what we expect from a decent story.

Black and white, good and evil, right and wrong - Those are the archetypical conflicts that belong in a Star Wars story. Without them, there's nothing but a lot of flashy special effects and wooden, untroubled, unmotivated characters that go nowhere, do nothing, for no reason, and with little motivation.

IMO, Luke must turn. It's foreshadowed by his father, of course. And, he must be redeemed by the next "Jedi" the series will turn its focus towards. Foreshadowed, of course, by Luke's own story.

(PS: The writers got this entirely backasswards in "The Force Awakens." They tried to recreate the plot and story of "A New Hope" in some ridiculously hamfisted attempt to recapture its magic, without paying any attention to the actual characters in the story... They tried to recreate Luke by manipulating externals while flashing cameos of beloved characters that need to be cast off. And, even then, they raped these beloved characters by failing to properly distance them or to even use them effectively in a cohesive story. As a result, I have no faith, whatsoever, that Disney or anyone else will be able to rescue Star Wars or recapture what was actually good about it. Instead, it'll be flashy, low brow, recreations of the same old story, every time, and they'll wonder what they're missing. But, they won't care, since people will still keep paying to see it, like people lining up at grocery stores buying chocolates and candy eggs for the Easter holiday without even asking themselves "WTF." )

[Ketraar]

No one has seen the fraking quotes around the word realism? SW survived being cheesy due to sci-fi drout and technological backwardness.

We live in 2017, post Matrix I cant handle cheesy any more, if they dont get these characters some depth, they might as well close shop. Only so many times you can make Rogue One. This has NOTHING to do with storytelling, you can tell almost any story set in Star Wars universe (which they are doing), but if I cant "buy" the characters and their motivations, might as well turn on full Furious or worse, Transformers.

I love Star Wars, but I need to care otherwise just gimme space battles and be done with all this force crap.

MFG

Ketraar

[brucewarren]

No Force?

Don't let Vader hear you say that.

You saw what he did to Motti If Tarkin hadn't intervened and ordered him to release him it would not have gone well for him. Just saying.

[Masterbagger]

Hokey religions and ancient weapons are no match for a good blaster at your side.

[Morkonan]

...
I love Star Wars, but I need to care otherwise just gimme space battles and be done with all this force crap.

I think that might be a good direction for the IP to steer in the future, but the Skywalker storyline is too steeped in mysticism for The Force to be avoided.

In any event, it's going to still be around in some form, but it just may not be a huge factor in future stories. They could, however, attempt a revival of the "Jedi Knights" (Notice the full name of the order which includes "Knights" which has certain connotations not yet explored) as part of continuing some sort of legacy. For instance, the founding of a Jedi Knights "school" after Luke is killed off/dies/is sacrificed (ideally)/ etc..

Of course, from what I've seen in the movies beyond the original three, it'd be more like a Jedi Knight Day Care rather than a "school", with toddlers being taught "lessons" by angsty adolescents.

[mrbadger]

I think that might be a good direction for the IP to steer in the future, but the Skywalker storyline is too steeped in mysticism for The Force to be avoided.

I don't know, the prequals turned the force into something detectable by a blood test.

If you can detect something with a blood test, you can adjust it with an injection. Not terribly mystical....

I think the Hero's Journey of the first movie was extremely well constructed (as it should be, since Lucas was influenced by Campbells 'The Hero with a Thousand Faces'). The later movies of the trilogy were ensemble cast peices, with Empire being the best. But in spite of the hype, Luke was never the strongest character after his initial arc completed in the first movie.

I'm not saying it was bad, but it never really worked outside of the heros journey structure. The time with Yoda was the only exception, and that was only because Yoda was great.

Re-watching them now I tend to be more interested in Solo and Leia's development as characters than his.

His character is a rather tragic one, a hero who would still be a perfect hero if he'd died in the fight he supposedly led, only he didn't, so he's still around, an anachronism. Not fitting into the new world, not living up to the expections of those who hero worship him.

At least Harrison Ford had the good sense to get his character killed off in the latest movie, in a tragic, but epic way.

[Jericho]

Hokey religions and ancient weapons are no match for a good blaster at your side.

One of the reasons I dislike Empire Strikes Back so much... All the force crap in the swamp with Kermit the Frog.

Star Wars and Jedi only really mention the force rather than dealing with it. Force awakens doesn't really have much Force in it. The prequels though... Hmmm. I still think that a fairly good action film could be made with a heavy edit. Very heavy.