What if Luke has forgotten all he knew about the Force?

brucewarren · Post by **brucewarren** » Tue, 20. Jun 17, 23:49

No Force?

Don't let Vader hear you say that.

You saw what he did to Motti If Tarkin hadn't intervened and ordered him to release him it would not have gone well for him. Just saying.

Masterbagger · Post by **Masterbagger** » Wed, 21. Jun 17, 02:25

Hokey religions and ancient weapons are no match for a good blaster at your side.

Morkonan · Post by **Morkonan** » Wed, 21. Jun 17, 04:17

Ketraar wrote:...
I love Star Wars, but I need to care otherwise just gimme space battles and be done with all this force crap.

I think that might be a good direction for the IP to steer in the future, but the Skywalker storyline is too steeped in mysticism for The Force to be avoided.

In any event, it's going to still be around in some form, but it just may not be a huge factor in future stories. They could, however, attempt a revival of the "Jedi Knights" (Notice the full name of the order which includes "Knights" which has certain connotations not yet explored) as part of continuing some sort of legacy. For instance, the founding of a Jedi Knights "school" after Luke is killed off/dies/is sacrificed (ideally)/ etc..

Of course, from what I've seen in the movies beyond the original three, it'd be more like a Jedi Knight Day Care rather than a "school", with toddlers being taught "lessons" by angsty adolescents.

mrbadger · Post by **mrbadger** » Wed, 21. Jun 17, 09:57

Morkonan wrote: I think that might be a good direction for the IP to steer in the future, but the Skywalker storyline is too steeped in mysticism for The Force to be avoided.

I don't know, the prequals turned the force into something detectable by a blood test.

If you can detect something with a blood test, you can adjust it with an injection. Not terribly mystical....

I think the Hero's Journey of the first movie was extremely well constructed (as it should be, since Lucas was influenced by Campbells 'The Hero with a Thousand Faces'). The later movies of the trilogy were ensemble cast peices, with Empire being the best. But in spite of the hype, Luke was never the strongest character after his initial arc completed in the first movie.

I'm not saying it was bad, but it never really worked outside of the heros journey structure. The time with Yoda was the only exception, and that was only because Yoda was great.

Re-watching them now I tend to be more interested in Solo and Leia's development as characters than his.

His character is a rather tragic one, a hero who would still be a perfect hero if he'd died in the fight he supposedly led, only he didn't, so he's still around, an anachronism. Not fitting into the new world, not living up to the expections of those who hero worship him.

At least Harrison Ford had the good sense to get his character killed off in the latest movie, in a tragic, but epic way.

Jericho · Post by **Jericho** » Wed, 21. Jun 17, 11:19

Masterbagger wrote:Hokey religions and ancient weapons are no match for a good blaster at your side.

One of the reasons I dislike Empire Strikes Back so much... All the force crap in the swamp with Kermit the Frog.

Star Wars and Jedi only really mention the force rather than dealing with it. Force awakens doesn't really have much Force in it. The prequels though... Hmmm. I still think that a fairly good action film could be made with a heavy edit. Very heavy.

Post by **Ketraar** » Wed, 21. Jun 17, 12:33

I see the Prequels as a very long journey to get to this point. That scene made the theatre go so silent as as space to then rejoice in an epic nerdgasm on the first breathing sound. That was epic and worth the rather mediocre 8h journey leading up to it.

As for the Force, I dont mind the force, I'm just annoyed they gloss over it so much and make Jedi and Sith bland one note characters that have no personality at all, with the very few exceptions. No one is all good or all bad, that is the realism I like induced into any movie, regardless what genre, characters have to be relatable and/or believable.

I forgave TWA some of this blandness as it tries to both establish new characters and tidy up old ones. But in VIII they better step up their game or they risk falling behind as a mediocre superhero movie.

MFG

Ketraar

mrbadger · Post by **mrbadger** » Wed, 21. Jun 17, 12:50

Jericho wrote: The prequels though... Hmmm. I still think that a fairly good action film could be made with a heavy edit. Very heavy.

Such fan made edits do exist. I've never seen them myself, not really all that interested.

The main point against them is that they are all highly illegal.

The second point is that they are edits of, fan base aside, films that weren't all that good to start with. Take out the CGI, which is dating fast, and you're left with three rather poor movies.

I don't even avoid watching them because I don't like them for not being 'proper Star Wars' now.

I don't rewatch them because they just don't entertain me. I actually tried. I got bored, and I'm a huge Star Wars fan.

Morkonan · Post by **Morkonan** » Wed, 21. Jun 17, 20:53

mrbadger wrote:
Morkonan wrote: I think that might be a good direction for the IP to steer in the future, but the Skywalker storyline is too steeped in mysticism for The Force to be avoided.
I don't know, the prequals turned the force into something detectable by a blood test.

If you can detect something with a blood test, you can adjust it with an injection. Not terribly mystical....

I think the Hero's Journey of the first movie was extremely well constructed (as it should be, since Lucas was influenced by Campbells 'The Hero with a Thousand Faces'). The later movies of the trilogy were ensemble cast peices, with Empire being the best. But in spite of the hype, Luke was never the strongest character after his initial arc completed in the first movie.

I found this fascinating: http://www.starwarz.com/starkiller/the- ... rge-lucas/

The original synopsis for what later became "Star Wars" - http://www.starwarz.com/starkiller/the- ... -synopsis/

I'm not saying it was bad, but it never really worked outside of the heros journey structure. The time with Yoda was the only exception, and that was only because Yoda was great.

Luke, "the hero", needed help from a mentor, an archetypical character that is/can be part of the Hero's Journey structure. Ben was dead and without another Mentor to fill that role, the story would have fallen apart. At that time, he was too much of a neophyte to carry the role of a "Knight" as intended.

There's a ton of stuff wound up in the Hero's Journey structure. But, at its most basic, it contains a bunch of character archetypes that don't require anything fancy in order for them, their motivations, their personalities, etc, to be understood by the viewer. The story, itself, is relatively easy to digest as well. We know there is a goal to achieve that will be opposed by an antagonist. We know the hero will mature/grow and we know that he will have to overcome many obstacles by often relying on the help of his friends. We know he won't always succeed, but will overcome all difficulties to win out in the end. We know this because good always triumphs over evil and we know that's a major theme because there are no "greys" in this story.

You can combine and add to those sorts of things without staying completely within the structure of The Hero's Journey. Most stories, if not all, have similar components. (The Hero's Journey is, at its extreme, very formulaic. But, the variety in which those forms can be presented is what makes this story structure so very useful. Most "quest" stories end up gravitating towards it, naturally. Campbell's book, which is an excellent yet very arcane read, not for the fainthearted, attempts to decipher... why.

)

Re-watching them now I tend to be more interested in Solo and Leia's development as characters than his.

Plot drift and subplot rise... If you're writing a story and you spend more time on your subplot, that's probably the story you should be writing rather than the one you're actually writing.

(The same goes for characters. If you're writing a story and a minor character is more interesting, that's the character you should be writing about.)

His character is a rather tragic one, a hero who would still be a perfect hero if he'd died in the fight he supposedly led, only he didn't, so he's still around, an anachronism. Not fitting into the new world, not living up to the expections of those who hero worship him..

And, that's why he has to now come full circle. He didn't "win." He didn't ride off into the sunset with the girl. He didn't become king. He didn't sacrifice himself for the greater good. Instead, he's a forgotten, mythical, person, alone, a failure at reviving the Jedi, without purpose...

Some chick showing up with his old sword isn't going to do it. He just can't be reinvigorated by the magic contained in this Grail Object. (I groaned when they used it like that and then found it, "suddenly", sitting in what amounted to a trash bin...) In order to rescue the character, they have to tear him down (turn him) and then show his inner quality shining through and overcoming impossible odds in order to triumph once again. (Sacrifice himself, thus becoming redeemed and ending his arc before Hammill can't play him anymore.)

But, it's all just my opinion. They're not going to pay me to write the darn things, that's for sure, so my opinion has no monetary value. (It's worth a few pounds of internet ink, that's all.)

mrbadger · Post by **mrbadger** » Wed, 21. Jun 17, 22:07

Hamill himself revealed that he suggested to Lucas that Luke should have failed in Return of the Jedi, possibly even turning to the dark side himself.

And the rebelion would of course then have failed as well, or at least failed that time.

But of course that ending, while clearly epic and dark, would have been terrible for toy sales, and by that time Star Wars was already more about toy sales than epic plot lines by then.

Return, had it ended like that, would probably have been a movie to rival Empire.

But it wasn't to be, we had to have the Ewoks instead.

Post by **Ketraar** » Wed, 21. Jun 17, 23:31

Morkonan wrote:Some chick showing up with his old sword isn't going to do it. He just can't be reinvigorated by the magic contained in this Grail Object.

Thats the fun part, you don't need Luke to be reinvigorated, you can have him tap into the dark side and realize he has failed and thus training Ray in both, hence the Grey Jedi is Ray, not Luke. He will be passt the point of no return and the only way to redeem himself is to help Ray and "let go" (die or otherwise sacrifice, like Obiwan) and complete the prophecy of bringing true balance to the Force, where Ray and Kylo struggle to find their balance, with one having a more darker dominance than the other, but both having shades.

Not to brag, but that is a far more interesting story than the (again) turning of a Jedi to the Dark side. We have been there and have done that, please move on.

MFG

Ketraar

PS.: I will see any story regardless anyway, but some wishful thinking cant hurt I guess.

Len5 · Post by **Len5** » Thu, 22. Jun 17, 02:16

The Force Awakens is nothing else than a remake of the original trilogy, made for young people that didn't grow up with it and they brought back some of the old characters to attract the old fans and to make it look like it's a sequel and, of course, to make some extra money.
For the next movie they'll probably try to top the now old 'a relaltive is the bad guy' and 'son kills father'. Expect some weird stuff. Anything is possible.

They may later even come with a movie to show what happened between the original trilogy and TFA.

Morkonan · Post by **Morkonan** » Thu, 22. Jun 17, 02:24

mrbadger wrote:Hamill himself revealed that he suggested to Lucas that Luke should have failed in Return of the Jedi, possibly even turning to the dark side himself.

And the rebelion would of course then have failed as well, or at least failed that time.
...

That would have been a decent story. At least, a great story for the setup for the next one.

..But it wasn't to be, we had to have the Ewoks instead.

Oh, don't remind me... I wish the Ewoks stayed being cannibals that sacrificed their humanoid victims, but they downplayed that, didn't they.

(Friggin moron wrote that bit in the script.)

Did you ever see the "Star Wars Holiday Special?"

/sigh

... https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=S3a5j8PgQxg (I don't approve of such links, but it's for discussion, not for exploitation, and the channel has not monetized it.)

Somewhere along the line, Star Wars became one of the very first commercial blockbusters that moved from the theater to toy shelves. Pursuing toy sales like that really doesn't work well for creating stories. Thankfully, I don't think many toys came out of the "Holiday Special."

Ketraar wrote:...where Ray and Kylo struggle to find their balance, with one having a more darker dominance than the other, but both having shades. ..

Kylo Ren is a breathing abortion of a character... I can't stand even the idea of him. But, if they had to have him, they could have at least given him more substance, more gravitas. Instead, they made him into an adolescent Joffrey from Game of Thrones. Kylo is what Joffrey would have been if he had grown up without enough toys...

I would celebrate if they killed off Kylo by having him devoured by a Sarlac.

"Grey" force powers/Jedi should not be allowed to exist. It's either one or the other, not both, else there's nothing to fear by "going to the Dark Side." Bringing "balance" doesn't have to mean compromising ones morality.

Post by **Ketraar** » Thu, 22. Jun 17, 02:36

Morkonan wrote:"Grey" force powers/Jedi should not be allowed to exist. It's either one or the other, not both, else there's nothing to fear by "going to the Dark Side." Bringing "balance" doesn't have to mean compromising ones morality.

Why should there be nothing to fear? As I mentioned before, balancing both is not easy task, trying to tap into the dark side without getting trapped by it is not easy by any means (unless they make it shallow and its just an on switch). A character that will have to struggle with its actions and morals, and the toll that takes or how their inaction results in unwanted suffering is far more interesting then to have a the good guy do good things and the bad guys do bad things, that is just boring.

MFG

Ketraar

Morkonan · Post by **Morkonan** » Thu, 22. Jun 17, 08:13

Ketraar wrote:...Why should there be nothing to fear? As I mentioned before, balancing both is not easy task, trying to tap into the dark side without getting trapped by it is not easy by any means (unless they make it shallow and its just an on switch). A character that will have to struggle with its actions and morals, and the toll that takes or how their inaction results in unwanted suffering is far more interesting then to have a the good guy do good things and the bad guys do bad things, that is just boring.

I don't believe in the philosophical validity of situational ethics. If you hold yourself to no standards except those that are most convenient at the time, you hold to nothing.

Yes, some stories are great where characters may have to choose to do something evil in order to attain something good. But, they are terribly, terribly difficult to do right. Why? There's little implied value or sacrifice in such acts and they stain the character, forever - You can't go back. And, what's the value of what good was gained? What sacrifice was necessary to attain it?

Like I said, though, some stories are, indeed, wonderful when told from that perspective. "Antiheroes" are constructed that way. Thomas Covenant the Unbeliever, from the Donaldson series of the same name, is such a character. Though, he never committed evil for a good purpose. Instead, when faced with paradise realized in the first few pages of the first darn book, he... raped a child. Wonderful, eh? That "first sin" is something he lived with for over six.. nine (Didn't read the last three books, really) books and paid for over and over again. He heaped massive suffering upon himself and, perhaps, upon those around him in some attempt to atone for that sin. Even though it could be argued he had an excuse, as if there is such a thing for such an act.

A tragedy.

Is Star Wars a tragedy? Is Luke an Antihero?

I'm not saying your idea is bad, not at all. It's just not good for this particular story. It takes everything the story has focused on for however many movies one wants to insist contribute to it and devalues everything that built the characters in it.

Annikan chose the Dark Side for revenge. Kenobi sacrificed himself for Luke, staying true to Light. Luke stayed true to the Light, even though he was sorely tempted. Annikan, as Darth Vader, redeemed himself in the end for love of his son. Jar-Jar refused to turn from the Dark Side, even though that one cute Ewok loved him... Uh, wait... nevermind, fanfic.

The point is that the whole story has revolved around Light vs Dark. That is the theme. Good vs Evil, Dogs vs Cats, Capitalism vs Communism.. an' stuffs. If there is one "Grey" bit in there, anywhere, it devalues the sacrifices and growth that both Good and Evil characters have realized in order to reach their goals.

But, maybe they'll do exactly that? If so, I think it's a mistake with this particular storyline. Finish that storyline up and then start another, more grey, more troubled, more elusive and tragic storyline.

This particular storyline with Luke has never, ever, been "gritty" or "dystopic" or "morally challenging." It has always been about Good vs Evil and it should stay that way, until the end. No grey for anyone, see it through.

Jericho · Post by **Jericho** » Fri, 23. Jun 17, 09:52

Len5 wrote:The Force Awakens is nothing else than a remake of the original trilogy.

And is that a bad thing?

I'm a huge Star Wars fan. The prequels went in a different direction, and Lucas was rightly lambasted for them. Force Awakens hits all the right notes.

Everyone says that it's just a remake of Star Was A New Hope (And I agree). And... so what? Why is that a bad thing? It washed the foul taste of General Grievous and all the others from my mouth.

Now I'm ready for a new film. I just hope the new one isn't a rehash of Empire Strikes Back, as just don't find force-training to be interesting. There is going to be the obligatory floating rock scene.

But then I've never liked training montages unless it is to a Kenny Logins soundtrack and features Sylvester Stallone and Dolph Lungdren and 1980's Bridgette Nilson.

If they can make Rey's training look like this, I'll watch:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nHbYW8yFsk0

Len5 · Post by **Len5** » Fri, 23. Jun 17, 16:10

Doing a remake isn't necessarily a bad thing, but in this case it is.
If you're doing it or recycling a story, you do it because you think you can do a better job at it, not because you're lazy, cheap, have no imagination and just want to grab money.
I would've done a proper remake and be honest about it and take out some of the small imperfections and try to keep it simple.
Disney just wrapped the (almost) same story around the CGI and added large imperfections. (To me it's not just a remake of ANH, it's of all three together.)
If Luke saw TFA, I bet he wants to forget everything about the Force.

I watched it because it got high ratings and I regret doing so. I seriously don't understand the high ratings.
Am I not progressive enough if I like the old movies over the new one or something? "Grandpa's still watching slow movies without CGI from the 70's and 80's? Yawn! Get into present time, wrinklesaurus."

brucewarren · Post by **brucewarren** » Fri, 23. Jun 17, 17:46

Now there's a thought.

Is it possible for someone strong in the Force to cut himself off from it. Could he use it to wipe his own memory clean of the whole business in the process?

Could he then step forward with as much Force power as R2D2?

Len5 · Post by **Len5** » Fri, 23. Jun 17, 19:04

Like Sphere.

No look, Luke hasn't forgotten about the Force. He knew/felt Rey was coming or do you think he just stands there day in day out?
Or if he had a radar and knew a ship was coming, why does he stand there with his back turned to the only road not knowing if the person coming is dangerous?

egosoft.com

egosoft.com

What if Luke has forgotten all he knew about the Force?