LOTR Why does Frodo not order the Ringwraths to go away?

[Skism]

Heres one that I wonder about:

Would it be possible for Frodo to have Ordered the Ring wraths to leave him alone?

I mean particularly in the scene on Weathertop he s already wearing the ring and instead of being stabbed by a Morgal blade (and potentially being turned into a wrath) he could simply tell them to go away!

Now I appreciate that he did not do this for plot reasons and the fact he was scared out of his mind.

BUT the question is could he in fact have done it?

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1zlP5x_cXf0

^ this is the scene im primarily talking about

EDT: I mean the rhyme for the One Ring says and in the "darkness bind them to its will"

So why not simply command command the Ringwraths (who are lets not forget the NINE) to leave you alone? then take the Ring off?

[brucewarren]

No he couldn't.

The wraiths are slaves to the ring but Frodo doesn't have the strength or the skill to use it.

Galadrial explains the problem to Frodo in Lorien. It's not quite the same problem but I think it's the same answer.

When he asks why he can't use the ring to hear the thoughts of the others she replies "You have not tried. Do not try it would destroy you. ... before you could use that power you would need to become far stronger and train your mind to the domination of others."

[Morkonan]

In order to use the ring, Frodo would have had to dominate it with his will.

There were few beings in Middle Earth with that sort of strength. And, even if they could, it would only be for a short time - The Ring held a great deal of Sauron's power/will/essence. Not even Galadriel, Elrond, Gandalf or Aragorn, who actually did wrest control of a Palantir, at least for a time, away from Sauron's influence, could not have overcome the power and influence of the One Ring. Tom Bombadil did, though, but there are reasons for that and even he would not have lasted long in a direct contest with Sauron.

The Ring's nature was, indeed, one of overcoming will and of controlling others. It was purpose-built for such a task and, as a result, one would have to have been intimately connected to it and exposed to it in order to have a chance.

It was remarkable that Frodo avoided its influence and temptation for so long, but he wouldn't have lasted very long at all if he had confronted it directly.

[pjknibbs]

Tom Bombadil did, though, but there are reasons for that and even he would not have lasted long in a direct contest with Sauron.

Just to correct you there--Tom Bombadil does not have any sort of power over the Ring. As Elrond says at the Council, it's more than the Ring has no power over him; he cannot be influenced by it and does not turn invisible while wearing it, but he has no power to control it himself. Also, the likes of Galadriel and Gandalf probably *would* be able to take control of the Ring, but would become so utterly corrupted in doing so that they'd effectively become a copy of Sauron anyway.

[Morkonan]

Tom Bombadil did, though, but there are reasons for that and even he would not have lasted long in a direct contest with Sauron.

Just to correct you there--Tom Bombadil does not have any sort of power over the Ring. As Elrond says at the Council, it's more than the Ring has no power over him; he cannot be influenced by it and does not turn invisible while wearing it, but he has no power to control it himself.

That's one reason why I wrote "but there are reasons for that." Didn't want to go further on that.

Also, the likes of Galadriel and Gandalf probably *would* be able to take control of the Ring, but would become so utterly corrupted in doing so that they'd effectively become a copy of Sauron anyway.

Sauron can not be destroyed. He can't be "killed." At best, unless the Valar intervened, upon destruction of the One Ring, and only if it was destroyed, he would become a "shade, wandering the wastes" or something like that. (Forget the exact quote.) I think somewhere, can't remember where, it is mentioned that Sauron was cast through the Gate of the Night (Is that the right name?) and into the Void to keep his master company. That is the ultimate assumption, anyway, as I understand it, as mentioned in several notes I haven't read concerning Middle Earth Prophecy. (Parallels, somewhat, Biblical prophecy, with a return of Melkor, a final battle, and a new song being sung.)

But, IMO, none who bent the Ring to their Will would truly ever be free of Sauron. Time after time, he has shown extraordinary ability to manipulate people. And, with Sauron ringing around in one's head, through the Ring, eventually one would succumb. (IMO)

Sauron was once defeated, utterly, (Well, surrendered, with some fiendish motivations) and was forced into captivity. From that low state, he destroyed the most powerful nation in Middle Earth and caused the breaking of the World... just with words. Well, a little bit of magic for entertainment, one supposes, but it wasn't necessary. Methinks that anything that doesn't result in the destruction of the One Ring, "wrested" from his control or not, would have similar results.

On Bombadil: Bombadil simply doesn't care about the Ring. That's one reason Gandalf wouldn't give it to him for safekeeping. Bombadil cares about his lands and his wife, only. He's just not interested in the Ring or its power. Within his own realm, though, he's the principal Power. That combination gives him the ability to virtually ignore the Ring's effects. (Sort of story-breaking, though, in a way. Impressive, but it doesn't respect the drama surrounding the Ring.) But, even if he did care and would hide it effectively, he'd be overcome as Sauron is ultimately more powerful.

[pjknibbs]

From that low state, he destroyed the most powerful nation in Middle Earth and caused the breaking of the World... just with words.

Back then, Sauron was still attractive to look at, which was at least part of why people would listen to his honeyed words. After the fall of Numenor he was no longer able to make a form that looked fair (although he *isn't* just a flaming eye, Peter Jackson!), so the power of his words is nowhere near what it used to be.

[philip_hughes]

I could control it. ..

[Usenko]

I wants it, my precious . . .

[Sorkvild]

Many people also say that Frodo could tell the eagles to drop him near the mount doom? IMO this method was to obvious to use because of Sauron' "scanners" and possible interception and that is why Frodo chosen the hard way going on foot to avoid detection. What do you guys think?

[felter]

Wouldn 't be much of a story if it went Frodo got the eagles to drop him of at mount doom he then threw the ring into the lava before hitching a lift home. End of story.

[Morkonan]

... so the power of his words is nowhere near what it used to be.

Through the Palantiri he was able to poison the mind of Denethor, convince Saruman to turn and only Aragorn, partially because he was the rightful heir to the Palantiri, was able to wrest control of it. Even then, Aragorn didn't use it liberally. The Palantir was a poor conduit compared to the intimate connection the Ring would create.

The point, and one of the mechanics of the story, is that there is no "upside" to the One Ring and no way it can be used without the user being corrupted. Sauron can't be destroyed and he and the ring are basically "one." The Ring is his. Galadriel may be able to usurp it, but I have my doubts as to how independent she would eventually be. She doesn't lack a prideful history, either. Any claims she may make for her own abilities to seize the Ring for herself are, in my opinion, highly suspect... Elvish history is full of hubris, especially her family.

But, in any event, it's all speculation. But, it's fun speculation, nonetheless.

I, too, was a bit miffed at Jackson's "Eye." I guess he felt there needed to be something for the audience to focus on as "Sauron" rather than just words and a few flasbacks/visions/Ring/Amon Hen sequences.

PS - Yeah, I could do it, no problem...

[Morkonan]

.. What do you guys think?

The Eagles are the messengers and eyes of Manwe. They are under no obligation to do anything at all for anyone. That Gandalf can make a "request" for aid is one thing, that Frodo could use them as his personal Uber service is somewhat suspect.

[brucewarren]

I think people are being a bitt hard on poor Denethor. He did after all do rather better than Saruman when it came to the stones.

The latter was actually forced to report in at regular intervals. Gandalf mentions it after they take Isengard.

Denethor could not be so compelled, nor could he be lied to. Partly because the stones don't lie, but also because although he didn't have the absolute right to use them the way Aragorn did, as Steward of the city he did have some right, and the stone would have taken his side to some extent as it did to a greater extent for Aragorn.

He also had a certain strength of mind. He wasn't broken by force but tricked into despair. The long war, the sight of forces arrayed against the city which really did exist, and the belief that Faramir was a goner is what broke him.

Saruman had no right whatsoever to use the stones so even though he was a maia and therefore you'd think he'd have had a strong mind was completely overthrown by the stronger mind of Sauron and made into his bitch.

[Morkonan]

...
He also had a certain strength of mind. He wasn't broken by force but tricked into despair. The long war, the sight of forces arrayed against the city which really did exist, and the belief that Faramir was a goner is what broke him...

^-- Exactly.

The minds of Men have always been strong-willed. They're their own masters. They're "unbound" for the most part, outside of the fates of most of the rest of Middle Earth. That lets them reach higher, but can also allow them to fall lower...

Denethor was driven to despair by what he saw, but it was "filtered" a bit by Sauron. The lesson there is that Sauron is the great corruptor of that Age, IMO. Everything he touches becomes tainted. There can be no compromise.

I'm not quite sure how Saruman's fall was described, can't remember. IIRC, he was always a bit different and was a bit outside of the theme of "nature", focused more on machines and made things. It may be that was the niche in his armor that Sauron used, since he was also very interested in the same things and learned a great deal from whatshisname, the smith guy's apprentice/associate/etc, IIRC. (I'm no Tolkien scholar, though I'm impressed as heck that such official titles exist for a work that is probably fiction. )

[pjknibbs]

The point, and one of the mechanics of the story, is that there is no "upside" to the One Ring and no way it can be used without the user being corrupted.

Which is exactly what I said, isn't it? The only point of contention is that I don't think a corrupted Gandalf or Galadriel would actually be Sauron, they'd be corrupted versions of themselves--hence Galadriel's description of herself with the Ring as a Dark Queen, for whom all would pine after her beauty and despair.

[brucewarren]

I can see Feanor now standing before Mandos trying to plead his case.

"Not my fault guvnor I didn't want to murder me kinfolk at the harbours, nor did I want to abandon half the guys to the grinding ice. Sure it was bad but I was driven by Fate wasn' I? Blame them pesky Men. They's the ones with that free will doohicky. They's the ones that made I do it."

Somehow I get the feeling that the old Vala has heard one just once too often. It's not going to wash.

[Skism]

So basically you are saying Frodo is not powerfull enough...

Ok I can buy that

[Morkonan]

...
Which is exactly what I said, isn't it? The only point of contention is that I don't think a corrupted Gandalf or Galadriel would actually be Sauron, they'd be corrupted versions of themselves--hence Galadriel's description of herself with the Ring as a Dark Queen, for whom all would pine after her beauty and despair.

All I'm saying is that she has a somewhat inflated opinion of herself. She may take control of the Ring, may use it, but she would eventually be corrupted and Sauron would eventually regain it, probably doing very nasty things to her, afterwards. All Sauron would have to do is wait, maybe encourage her to do a few things, think a certain way, make a few decisions in his favor, set up a tiny little temple or three, have some parties, maybe a bigger temple, just for the party guests, mind you, some custom delicacies... like roast hobbit... make it a dinner club, maybe a bigger temple, some bonfires, something to sacrifice, uh, "cook" on them, ... etc. Sauron is much more patient than his old master.

Galadriel passed the test. That "test" was captured in the movie, the moment the Ring became available to her. And, we see the path she would have taken embodied in her dialogue at that moment. This is not the sort of person that would be able to free themselves from Sauron while wearing what is, in effect, a piece of him.

In my opinion, of course. I could be wrong and Tolkien may have maintained someone would have had a strong enough will, but I don't know who it could have been if that was the case.

[brucewarren]

There's probably an element of that, but the true test is the rejection of power.

Only the already powerful can wield the ring, but very few powerful people will reject the offer of further power. This is why Faramir refusing it outright is far more significant than say some unnamed hobbit hobo in Bree turning away from it. Faramir is great lord with significant power of his own, and just like Boromir recognises a very real need. The city is on the point of being overrun and he's only too well aware of the fact. Nevertheless he realises that the price is too high.

It's for the same reason that Gandalf is so afraid of it. He also has real need of it. With the responsibility of keeping the little guys (not just hobbits, but all the powerless folk of the West) alive it's a very real need.

There's zsro change of him turning into Sauron but every chance of him abusing his power and becoming a petty tyrant.

Even with the best of intentions, which Gandalf would almost certainly have, the power would of itself corrupt him. I believe Toliken wrote that Gandalf wearing the ring would make good seem detestable.

Bombadil is interesting because although he has a kind of power it's a different sort. He can't be dominated. He can't be told what to do., but he's got zero interest in telling anyone else what to do either. He doesn't consider himself the owner of his lands at all. All of the creatures who live there answer only to themselves. He doesn't rule and he doesn't want to rule. He just wants to be free to sing among the trees and collect flowers for his wife the hippy that he is.

[red assassin]

The real reason they don't use the Eagles more is documented here. (Strong language warning. Also, the source for that is very NSFW, so use caution Googling it.)