Is there anything I can do to secure Fields of Opportunity for trading?

Sinxar · Post by **Sinxar** » Mon, 3. Jul 17, 12:57

Lost another trader to those destroyers guarding the gates. That is a total of 7 so far and im sick of it. I lack the firepower to take them out (I assume they will just respawn anyway). Is there anything else I can do?

I am trying to keep my guys from going there at all cost but they keep flying through there for no apparent reason (not doing trades there at all, it must be a shortcut to somewhere). There are currently 5 cartel destroyers on each gate just waiting for my guys to jump in. Withdrawing from battle saves them for a bit, but they are unable to leave as both gates are blockaded.

Post by **UniTrader** » Mon, 3. Jul 17, 16:07

these Pirate Ships only Attack Trade Ships, so if you use fight Ships for Trading there your problem should be solved

concidentally the Pirate Ships attacking your Traders are iirc Fight ships with an (universal) Cargo Hold

RAVEN.myst · Post by **RAVEN.myst** » Mon, 3. Jul 17, 16:11

The problem you are experiencing in terms of navigation, is that between Far Out and some areas of Omicron Lyrae, the "most direct" route for ships to travel is via FoO - so you have to personally manage your trade deals and avoid trades that would qualify. If you are using some auto-trading script, it may be subject to the same sort of thing, but with the higher level of autonomy you are truly up the proverbial creek and lacking the required fluid displacement implement (unless there is some setting in the mod - I wouldn't know, as I play pure vanilla.) This has been something of a bugbear for me throughout Rebirth's history, the inability to blacklist locations from trade.

Now, as for how to actually deal with those UA and Cartel ships - well, they are something of a special case, because no doubt you've noticed that even if you are on good terms with them, they will attack (some of) your vessels. Specifically, they attack only civilian ships (definitely "trade" specialisation ships, and possibly "mine" and "build" too, but I haven't tested) - they will NOT attack your "fight"-specialised ships so long as you are on civil terms with the factions in question. However, there aren't all that many of those that can also trade (ie. have a cargo bay) - specifically, the pirate variants of the Phoenix destroyer. However, you can't buy these, only capture them, which wrecks your reputation with whoever you take it from in any case.

So, alternatives? You could try to build up a sufficiently strong fleet there to destroy those marauders as they appear - you will, of course, be wrecking your relationships with them, but since they come after your trade ships regardless, that's hardly an issue, yes? However, you will need a pretty damn big fleet (which you've already indicated you're not yet ready to field) in order to kill those ships fast enough not to suffer attrition.

Another alternative (a rather drastic one, heh) is to disable the Teladi Outpost content

Hey, I DID just say it's a drastic option!

Personally, I don't use any mods, so I don't have issues with my freighters straying, and I pay attention to where my merchantmen are buying and selling wares - avoidance through management/control. Oh, and just FYI, unfortunately, so long as Teladi Outpost is included in your game, your freighters will take those "shortcuts" even if you haven't explored there, so you couldn't (say, in a future playthrough) do that to prevent this happening...

birdtable · Post by **birdtable** » Mon, 3. Jul 17, 19:12

You could change your trade fleet to Lyramekrons,, expensive , smaller cargos, but heavily armed..
Unlike RAVEN.myst I have no problem using mods to assist where no real alternative exists,,,
Jump drive and beam in when a conflict occurs.... Not satisfactory but neither is what your experiencing.......

Edit ... If I remember rightly I had a fleet of 5 Olmekrons that came with me just to wave the big stick.... after all making money is the easiest and least enjoyable part of Rebirth.

Sinxar · Post by **Sinxar** » Tue, 4. Jul 17, 00:27

RAVEN.myst wrote:Personally, I don't use any mods, so I don't have issues with my freighters straying, and I pay attention to where my merchantmen are buying and selling wares - avoidance through management/control. Oh, and just FYI, unfortunately, so long as Teladi Outpost is included in your game, your freighters will take those "shortcuts" even if you haven't explored there, so you couldn't (say, in a future playthrough) do that to prevent this happening...

I don't use any mods like that. The only mod I have is capital ship bridges, afaik it doesn't alter pathing, just adds bridges to caps. But yeah disabling the DLC is a bit too extreme. I would rather find a way to overcome this problem in a legit fashion. Don't really understand why there isn't a sector blacklist for traders when they introduced TTO since any trade ship basically gets instapopped as soon as it enters a gate to that sector.

I have the Integrative URV Forge (in Glaring truth - Fervid Corona) and a Solar Energy Array (Radiant Haven empty space near Escape Velocity) and neither of these are making any real money. Does anyone know of a better way to raise the funds for a fleet of destroyers to secure the area? Unless I am missing something, stations seem to be a complete waste of time (i get a 'small fortune' every few hours of playtime of 2 mil), I am losing more in trading than I make due to the constant loss of freighters.

Oh and the Titurel is listed as a fight ship on the wiki: https://www.egosoft.com:8444/confluence ... d=38699161

Not sure why, it is a freighter for sure, even has the freighter icon and is attacked by the cartel in FO.

ed: I see why, there is a note at the bottom. bit misleading IMO, sure it has more DPS than your average freighter but it is still a freighter.

RAVEN.myst · Post by **RAVEN.myst** » Tue, 4. Jul 17, 01:37

Sinxar wrote:I don't use any mods like that. The only mod I have is capital ship bridges, afaik it doesn't alter pathing, just adds bridges to caps. But yeah disabling the DLC is a bit too extreme.

Right, so you are trading in a "MORT" fashion - this makes avoiding those deadly trips fairly easy, but you have to first figure out the problem routes. I know that Far Out in Albion (where the gate to FoO is located) to Omicron Lyrae is a problem, but I forget where precisely is problematic on the OL side - but the routes may be troublesome farther away from the FoO gates - basically, you need to avoid sending them on any trip where the shortest path takes them through Teladi space.

Sinxar wrote:I would rather find a way to overcome this problem in a legit fashion. Don't really understand why there isn't a sector blacklist for traders when they introduced TTO since any trade ship basically gets instapopped as soon as it enters a gate to that sector.

I agree in every sense - as I previously mentioned, the inability to blacklist dangerous sectors has been a source of frustration for me from the start.

Sinxar wrote:I have the Integrative URV Forge (in Glaring truth - Fervid Corona) and a Solar Energy Array (Radiant Haven empty space near Escape Velocity) and neither of these are making any real money. Does anyone know of a better way to raise the funds for a fleet of destroyers to secure the area? Unless I am missing something, stations seem to be a complete waste of time (i get a 'small fortune' every few hours of playtime of 2 mil), I am losing more in trading than I make due to the constant loss of freighters.

I find that station-building snowballs - each new station adds to the cumulative effect, until you get to a point where you literally don't know how to spend all the incoming cash. Here's how my typical Rebirth economy develops, as an example:
- If playing a campaign game (which is my preference, because of the additional challenges and obstacles), I would now start with Crystal Supplier and Construction Shop in Exhaustless Mines - non-Plutarch space in Albion territory. The former ensures that my stations don't get attacked by PMC (not sure whether they would be, if built on red spots - I've never been willing to spend long enough trying it), while the latter makes the RMP needed for construction available through intermediary traders who buy from PMC and resell to my build sites. After those stations are built, I now have my own supply of RMP, cut crystal, and nividium cubes.
- I then proceed to build the Integrated URV Forge in DeVries (I normally place it in Forty-Two), and a new Construction Shop in Gushing Spring (central location, location, location, and access to ore and silicon right there, so M-sized miners can handle that cheaply.) Also, I put down a Crystal Supplier next to the iURVForge (needed for the Construction Shop to be able to produce RMP.)
- If I want to boost my money income (these days I never do, as it makes the game too easy, but in the past I did this), I would collect station building missions from the locals. Because RoC-built construction vessels can only build three types of stations, you end up with a lot of duplication (well, more than merely DUplication) of missions, so at some point I would put down a RoC Solar Energy Array, and in so doing complete anywhere between 5 and 20 missions - at around 5 million creds each, that's financing for a long time to come! If necessary, do the same with a Water Distillery.
- IMPORTANT: Each time you build ANYTHING on a station of a sort you are commissioned to by mission, it completes the mission. So you can add a single module, or even a single turret, or repair 1% of damage, and all station build missions matching that station type are completed (I consider this an exploit, but it does work, if you fancy some fast cash.)
- A Ship-Tech Fab and something able to make Bio-Optic Wiring are usually next on my list, normally in DHA for proximity to the shipyard (for mutual defense and ready access to a customer.) With the Construction Shop plus these two additions, you are looking at no longer to EVER need to import building materials, and on top of that making really good money on fusion reactors and inertial dampeners (Podkletnov generators - damn, that's hard to type!

)
- I don't do ANY manual trading once my first couple of stations are up, with my freighters instead being assigned to station duties. Since stations have a maximum range of "system", they never end up in Teladi space, so no problem there. The only exception may come later on, when I have significant surpluses of fusion reactors, PK generators, plasma flow regulators - I may then send occasional shipments for 40-50 millionish (iIrc) to either Albion or OmLy. The only other exception to this is to import spices for Crystal Castle and meat for the HoA food plant in Molten Archon (in Vapour Stream, iIrc.) Because all my manual trades are maximum one-gate routes, none of them go via FoO, so no problems there. (At some point, however, I have stations producing spices and meat locally, so I no longer need to do those imports.)
- I keep adding stations to fill gaps in the local economy (mostly my own economy, as there are few RoC customers other than the shipyards.) When my iURVForge is fully upgraded and I am supplying the local economy with everything it might buy, I find that it (the Forge, that is) makes me a fairly hefty and consistent profit (I forget the exact figures, so am reluctant to quote any, but I can tell you we're talking a lot more than that 2M per hour.)
- Depending on how motivated I'm feeling, I may, once having filled all the permanent zones (I almost never, except in a couple of experimental games, build in temporary "empty space" zones) in Glaring Truth, I may then start developing Molten Archon, to support the second RoC shipyard there (which I am very conscientious about helping to get built in the first place, along with the other NPC constructions in Molten Archon and Forty-Two.)
- Throughout this time, I am buying ships, and perhaps capturing some (I really like Stromvoks, they're quite capable compact little fighting ships - not heavy at all, but correspondingly quick.)
- If by this stage (usually about a week) I haven't grown bored out of my skull and abandoned in favour of some Albion Prelude or something else entirely, I may start an operation in OmLy, or expand my initial presence in Albion (though in a plot game I never shake hands with PMC, so that limits options there), or start something in Home of Light.

Home of Light
Since the release of 4.1, I decided to try something that previously was impossible due to a navigational bug, and was delighted to find that this bug has been stomped on. (The details are unimportant at this point, but suffice to say that the following was impossible to do until this was fixed.)
- Most of HoL's stations are on the main "ring road" that encompasses the whole system, all four of its sectors. Consequently, it is (now) viable to set up stations along this road and attach only M-size freighters to serve those stations - this vastly reduces setup costs, allowing lucrative development. Also, because the local economy is already highly developed, RMP and FR are in ample supply, so construction is a breeze.
- I have only done one test run so far, but I started with a Staples Farmery and (after adding on the essential comms annex) upgraded it with two distilleries as quickly as possible. This station has been making good money. I then proceeded to fill up its food production capabilities, which has also increased its profitability, but the bulk of it is still from liquor sales - the denizens of Home of Light are pretty thirsty!

Of course, this means that a local liquor license must be purchased, which in turn means that a certain reputation with Terracorp is needed.
- I then built a Med Dispensary, as medical supplies are also in high demand and very profitable. (Again, a controlled substance license is needed.)
- An advantage with providing these secondary resources is that they make factories (including the NPC ones you sell to) more productive, thus increasing supply and reducing prices of commodities you may be buying (such as building materials for your station projects.)
- At this point, I would start looking at medium/high tech factories, probably, but haven't tested yet (and am intending to test viability of minerals - I don't expect to be blown away, though.)

I hope the above "quick, brief" notes help a little with some ideas. Good fortune!

Snafu_X3 · Post by **Snafu_X3** » Tue, 4. Jul 17, 03:22

Sinxar wrote:Oh and the Titurel is listed as a fight ship on the wiki: https://www.egosoft.com:8444/confluence ... d=38699161 ed: I see why, there is a note at the bottom. bit misleading IMO, sure it has more DPS than your average freighter but it is still a freighter.

Tks for that; I'll add a note to get it removed (altho the footnote is still apposite) as I think that page may be auto-generated

I mentioned this earlier, but I can't remember if the Wiki has it: claim an empty sector (simply use a beacon) to just S of the TO gate sector, then send trade ships there; this way they can dash in & out manually to grab needed wares & not suffer attacks. Alternatively you could build a warehouse there simply to stash the Teladi gear..

Board (once you have >75 BS) as many /Cartel/ PMs as you wish; UA has a mission you may wish to do at some point, for which you need the rep. They don't have a lot of cargo space, but PMs are useful & quick ferries to your traders for small-volume wares to that undefined zone (above).. plus they can be devastating if used en-mass in combat (if used singly they're likely too be wiped out pretty quickly due to their low armour)

Sinxar · Post by **Sinxar** » Tue, 4. Jul 17, 06:43

Thanks for the suggestions. I'll build some more stations and try to get that going while I continue to build my combat fleet.

Getting a start on it now with two more captured light suls. I get missions to kill pirate olmekrons, so i will have to take those and board them.

[ external image ]

Sinxar · Post by **Sinxar** » Tue, 4. Jul 17, 10:09

Vanilla trader AI is infuriating!

I wanted to see what an active trader does when attacked. A fully kitted rahanas with a 5 star captain, engineer and defense officer, 20 attack drones and ofc cargo lifters and construction drones. (this all occurred OOS)

It got attacked by a lone xenon n. It literally just sat there and died... why... Didn't occur to you to, oh maybe deploy some drones? Fire some of the guns all over your hull? Maybe jump away? Or perhaps just move?

Oh no that would be too difficult for a 5 star crew!

After reloading, if I manually tell them to jump or move they do so. WTF is wrong with the AI? Is there a mod that fixes this stupid behavior? Why do they just stop in their tracks and sit there and die for no reason when they get shot?

ed: I am just modding it up, the AI is actually ridiculous and is killing the fun factor for me. I finished the main campaign vanilla (not that it was hard, felt more like a tutorial) so at least there is that. Maybe I am just doing it wrong and you are not supposed to trade (terrible AI as a deterrent?), maybe my game is just busted (i verified cache and it found nothing wrong), or I could just be doing it wrong altogether. Whatever the case may be it is frustrating to play.

birdtable · Post by **birdtable** » Tue, 4. Jul 17, 14:23

It may not be what you want directly but looking through the available mods I found Simooms Lantern .. which is a cheat mod,,, but within the mod there was Civil War Behaviour, it may help.... I have no experience of this mod or if compatible with your existing game but maybe worth checking on for Fields of O problems .... I used YAT for the 20 or so general trade ships and left myself 5 or 6 (Lyramekons) for personal control .... but then I mainly used Teladi trade ships just so I could easily recognise what could be my trading fleet... MitchTech Station Logistics will give you greater control over fixed trade routes ..... Hope it helps ..

Edit ...My apologies for discussing mods in vanilla X Rebirth,,, I shall cease forthwith....

GCU Grey Area · Post by **GCU Grey Area** » Tue, 4. Jul 17, 17:15

Sinxar wrote:I have the Integrative URV Forge (in Glaring truth - Fervid Corona) and a Solar Energy Array (Radiant Haven empty space near Escape Velocity) and neither of these are making any real money.

Yeah, neither of those stations will ever be particularly lucrative.

Market for energy cells tends to be saturated by NPC production. Only times I've ever built Energy Arrays was very late game, after I'd built so many other stations I was causing a system wide shortage of energy cells, so needed a reliable supply for use by my own stations (rather than for sale to NPCs).

As for the Int URV Forge - it's not a bad station, but nowhere near as lucrative as a proper URV production station. Difference is Int URV makes very small batches of a limited range of basic drones (i.e. the cheap ones) out of readily available raw materials (ore, silicon, crystals, etc). In contrast a proper URV station makes much larger batches of the full range of drones out of high tech components - these stations can be VERY lucrative, but generally require a lot of infrastructure in the form of numerous other stations to make those components (hard to maintain continuous production if relying solely on NPC component suppliers). They're also incredibly expensive to build.

Also bear in mind Int URV has only 1 or 2 local customers (DV shipyards) & their demand for drones tends to be highly reliant on whether they have all the resources they need for ship production (frequently they don't because it mostly has to be imported from other systems). IMO best use for Int URV is simply to ensure a reliable source of drones for use by own ships, rather expecting to sell many.

When I'm playing a predominantly Build focused game I tend to go for either Metalworks Yard (Albion) or Metalframes Fab (OL) as my first station. Both stations are relatively cheap (around 10 million to get started) & do the same thing - turn readily available ore & silicon into Refined Metals & Silicon Wafers (much more lucrative than selling the mined resources). They're also essential resources used by the next tier of production (RMP, Fusion Reactors, etc), so handy to have your own supply ready for when you can afford to start building those stations - Construction Shops (etc) are quite expensive stations which is why I generally prefer to start 1 tier lower.

Snafu_X3 · Post by **Snafu_X3** » Wed, 5. Jul 17, 00:57

Sinxar wrote:I wanted to see what an active trader does when attacked. A fully kitted rahanas with a 5 star captain, engineer and defense officer, 20 attack drones and ofc cargo lifters and construction drones. (this all occurred OOS)

This is a Rahanas: a Trade ship with a paper-thin hull & next to no defences; if you want the Cpt/DO to fight in that sort of situation, give them the appropriate orders! How's your crew's morale BTW?

Sinxar · Post by **Sinxar** » Wed, 5. Jul 17, 02:47

Snafu_X3 wrote:
Sinxar wrote:I wanted to see what an active trader does when attacked. A fully kitted rahanas with a 5 star captain, engineer and defense officer, 20 attack drones and ofc cargo lifters and construction drones. (this all occurred OOS)
This is a Rahanas: a Trade ship with a paper-thin hull & next to no defences; if you want the Cpt/DO to fight in that sort of situation, give them the appropriate orders! How's your crew's morale BTW?

That is the thing though. It's not defenseless. It has capital shield, attack drones and lots of guns. What is the point of a defense officer if they refuse to defend?

You are flying a capital ship with superior firepower and defense than a Xenon N. I thought that is what the crew was for, the defense officer is set to defend, why isn't he defending? Why do I have to manually intervene over a small fighter and order them to attack it?

I installed Misc Combat Tweaks (this is a combo mod of OOZ and IZ tweaks) and it fixed the problem. Now when a trader is attacked, it will try to defend itself and escape. I just don't get the logic of, "oh no im under attack! Lets just sit here and do nothing!". I paid good money for highly skilled crew and a lot of time getting seminars for them. Basically meaning in vanilla it is completely pointless if they don't take advantage of any of it. There is literally no reason to ever hire more than a 1 star crew and be done with it (for trader ships). Not that you can see their skills anyway, in what world does it make sense that a person actively looking for a job would refuse to give you their resume?

I know I sound overly salty, it the little things that rub me the wrong way. I mean at least in X3 if your trader was under attack it would at least try to run, drop drones or fire its turret.

RAVEN.myst · Post by **RAVEN.myst** » Wed, 5. Jul 17, 09:13

Sinxar wrote:That is the thing though. It's not defenseless. It has capital shield, attack drones and lots of guns. What is the point of a defense officer if they refuse to defend?

You are flying a capital ship with superior firepower and defense than a Xenon N. I thought that is what the crew was for, the defense officer is set to defend, why isn't he defending? Why do I have to manually intervene over a small fighter and order them to attack it?

You are absolutely right about this - the capital-grade freighters have multiple turrets, drones, shields, and crew, so they generally (depending on the specific ship) should be able to fend off a couple (or even a few) fighters. It occurs to me that you may have fallen prey to a specific bug that, as far as I know, has still not been fixed:

When you get back your ships that were impounded by PMC in the campaign, it is quite common for some of the crew members to be in an inactive state (it apparently depends on what the ship was doing at the time it was impounded.) I have had this happen to the engineer on the Rahanas thus impounded every single time, as far as I can remember, and I've heard that even the captain can get stuck in this manner - therefore, if/when playing a plot game, as soon as I get back my ships (and establish whether my CV's architect is any good and if not reload a save), I check all the ships' crew to make sure they are all doing what they are supposed to. The way to check whether this has happened is to open that ship's management section, and check each crew member's orders in detail to make sure there is no "None" showing anywhere - for example, the engineer should be showing as "Repairing -> Analyzing components" at the most passive (ie. when there is nothing to repair) - if it's broken, it will show its current order as "None". The way to fix this is to replace the crew member in question, or recall and then reassign - basically, the crew member needs to be reinitialized.

If the Rahanas in question is one you've had since before that part of the campaign, then it's quite likely this has happened. It is also possible that the mod youi mentioned fixes the issue (it may reinitilialize crew scripts.)

BTW, just so you know: the behaviour you witnessed there is NOT standard vanilla behaviour - something was definitely wrong/stuck there, one way or another, whether it was the bug I mentioned, or something else (I still occasionally see non-responsive ships despite all the attention they've had over the course of many patches - just yesterday, I ordered the Balor I was relaxing on to take me to a particular location - it did nothing, despite showing the order I gave it. I had to cancel that order and tell it go somewhere else, and from there to where I actually wanted to go - something about the direct-line path to where I needed to be apparently confused my supposedly more-than-competent captain, heheheheheh.) Normally, the ships WILL, in fact, react more or less as you'd expect them to, and OoZ/OoS combat tends to favour your capitals over aggressing fighters.

Sinxar · Post by **Sinxar** » Wed, 5. Jul 17, 10:13

I got a Fulmekron and three light sul's right now. What is the best way to group these guys? Was thinking I should let the Fulmekron be the leader (i have him set to attack enemies) but I'm not sure how the logic works.

I am afraid he will send in the Sul's to get wrecked vs a big ship while slowly lumbering over to put some dps on the target. Or would it be better to group the Suls and let the Fulmekron do its own thing? Ideally I want the Fulmekron to tank it while the Suls get in there with drones and guns since they are on the weak side.

birdtable · Post by **birdtable** » Wed, 5. Jul 17, 11:12

I never grouped anything .... depends on what "additions" you have made but I always found individual control saves your sanity.... others may disagree.
Mentioned earlier I waved the big stick with 5 Olmekrons none were grouped.
Look forward to you returning to describe your fleet exploits ...

Sinxar · Post by **Sinxar** » Wed, 5. Jul 17, 11:58

All those destroyers got rekt in Fields of Opportunity. Only lost some MK1 drones. They respawn super fast too. Got 9 kills on the first gate by the outpost. 12 more around the outpost itself. Those are just the ones that were camping the area. On the way to the other gate more were spawning but I decided to just keep going. Got 6 more that were hanging out on the OL gate in Sea-green Oasis and also the 8 around the station there as well. They are still spawning though, guess you aren't supposed to kill them because the respawn rates are crazy high. At least they are very easy kills, only takes 10 seconds or less for each one to go down.
[ external image ]

Lord Crc · Post by **Lord Crc** » Wed, 5. Jul 17, 12:29

I always like to keep 3-5 Balors around if I want to secure a zone. They're fairly cheap and a few of them makes short work of most ships.

Personally I've been very disappointed by the subordinate AI, so I just order each ship to patrol zone.

It should be said I'm using the improved combat mod tho (MCT).

Post by **Sparky Sparkycorp** » Wed, 5. Jul 17, 16:25

It is also possible to acquire Phoenix Marauders without tanking reputation.

They can be targets of Assassination missions offered with FoO. Whilst they will generally (maybe always) be pirates, they will not belong to the two local 'pirate' factions.

RAVEN.myst · Post by **RAVEN.myst** » Wed, 5. Jul 17, 20:48

Sinxar wrote:I got a Fulmekron and three light sul's right now. What is the best way to group these guys? Was thinking I should let the Fulmekron be the leader (i have him set to attack enemies) but I'm not sure how the logic works.

I am afraid he will send in the Sul's to get wrecked vs a big ship while slowly lumbering over to put some dps on the target. Or would it be better to group the Suls and let the Fulmekron do its own thing? Ideally I want the Fulmekron to tank it while the Suls get in there with drones and guns since they are on the weak side.

Well, the basic principle of having the slowest, heaviest ship as the leader is sound - its escorts will be able to keep pace with it even when losing ground through manoeuvres, and can theoretically break off to engage light enemies and then resume their station. However, in practice, unfortunately I have to agree with the negative consensus - the subordinate AI doesn't work very well at all. The escorts tend to dance around, jostling for the same positions (on several occasions I had the AI eventually give up and result in two or more escort ships overlapping!), then even when they do settle down, they don't often distribute themselves logically (on some occasions, I had 3 smaller ships escorting a larger one, and instead of spreading out at 120-degree intervals, they all ended up occupying one 120-degree arc, thus protecting just one side of the ship), and often they end up getting in the way of their leader. This last I found particularly true when trying to escort an Arawn with a group (ranging between 4 and 6) of mixed Taranises and Olmekrons - it was so bad, that the group couldn't even travel anywhere, as one of the escorts would cut across the leader's path, or even merely get close, and the leader would then veer off, only to repeat this process indefinitely.

I think it's really sad, as building a tiered fleet structure has the potential to create effective operational units and deploy them in interesting battles - but alas, 'tis not to be...

@Sparky: thanks for that tip, it hadn't occurred to me (probably because I tend to avoid the deus ex machinas resulting from missions - I play more organic games with smoother development curves - which has its disadvantages, heh.) If I play in FoO again, I will make sure to "shop" in that manner

However, for sector patrols, I find that 2- or 3-ship patrol units can be quite effective - say, a Sul/Stromvok escorted by a Balor. However, any larger than that and the formation gets unwieldy as soon as the action is in-zone.