Paid DLC in X4

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Rei Ayanami
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Post by Rei Ayanami » Fri, 11. Aug 17, 21:55

Vector_Gorgoth wrote:The bare, naked minimum is that a game should not have less content or fewer features than its predecessors.

If X3 allows fleet control, logistics, automated trading, station building, complexes, ship equipping and remote control, commodities trade, stock market, piracy, lasers/missiles, semi-dynamic economy, etc. -- then X4 is not "feature complete" unless it has the same features (if a feature is removed, it needs to be replaced with another feature which is at least as desirable as the first). That's the bare "don't insult me, here" minimum.
What if a game is so overeloaded with features where the sequel having less features but making these kept features so much better actually makes the game better?
What if a feature was implemented in the predecessor but totally unneeded or even unwanted by the player base?

For example i'd totally be fine if for X4 they scrapped the idea of me having to search and hire a competent pilot for each of my small ships and i wouldn't mind if they didn't replace it with anything.
Then there are other considerations: for a game with no predecessors, it needs to be "feature complete" - ANYTHING advertised in the pre-release hype should be included for only the base cost of the game; no exceptions. In other words, the game should deliver on the "vision" communicated to the players pre-release
I disagree.
From experience i can tell you that during game development there are tons of ideas that pop up "wouldn't be that cool?" "yea, we should definitely try that" and which, during interviews about the game, gets mentioned as a planned feature. But then it turns out, after implementing a prototype of that idea, that the feature - when used ingame - isn't really that fun so it gets scrapped. Should game devs still implement these features even though it turns out that they were not fun, just because they said they planned to have that feature ingame?
Another case where being forced to pay is unacceptable is where an "oh duh!" feature is thought up post-release and implementing it is very technically simple.
That i wholeheartedly agree with.

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Post by Sparky Sparkycorp » Fri, 11. Aug 17, 23:38

X4 isn't out yet so this seems a little premature to me personally. That said, DLCs for X Rebirth were substantive (unique settings with unique mechanics) with the first offered free for a while, and the second tryable pre-purchase via a free demo. Sure, Egosoft could introduce gold ammo (intentional Eve reference) but the signs are not bad in that regard.

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Post by Graaf » Sat, 12. Aug 17, 10:28

Lets look at Rebirth then:
Rebirth (30) + TO (10) + HOL (10)
So for 2/3 of the games current price you can double the amount of space you play in? That makes TO extremely expensive for just 1 system.

But if I use HOL price/system, who is willing to pay an additional 450 to get the other missing systems from X3?

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Post by Sandalpocalypse » Sat, 12. Aug 17, 10:40

RAVEN.myst wrote:
Sandalpocalypse wrote:A great number of sequels have less content and less features than their predecessors. For example, Dawn of War II had fewer factions and less campaign content than Dawn of War I.

MMOs that have received sequels - or comparing new MMOs to older MMOs - are also a case in point. Newer games typically have way less content than older ones that have received additions.
Sadly, all too true. Working as a gaming journalist for nigh on 2 decades, I saw this happening for quite some time, a gradual but inexorable attrition of content yet accompanied by rising pricing/monetization. Essentially, a consumeristic trend born of gaming's success as an entertainment medium, "maturing" from a niche one to a mainstream one. Unfortunately, this has led to widespread dumbing down of titles more or less across the board, as well as shortening of content duration in order to:
- Create a vacuum to be filled with paid DLC later
- Make the titles more "consumable" - reduce a title's longevity and you end up increasing turn-over for subsequent titles (appealing to what I call "the ADD generation")
All too often, this practice is covered up by the excuse that the story-driven content is "merely a tutorial/springboard" and that the game's focus is intended to be "multiplayer-centric". A particularly disgusting example of this was Modern Warfare 2, whose entire campaign can be finished quite easily in just a few hours - when I tested that on release (yes, a good number of years ago, now), I at that point abandoned that franchise entirely (though, to be fair, I had never been an enthusiast in any case - but this was the final nail in the coffin.) Also, game makers are increasingly relying on bling to dazzle and seduce their attention-deficient audiences into short-lived purchases, and to distract them from whatever game/s they may have been playing at the time (after all, they want to increase turnover - which is understandable to a degree - doesn't mean I have to like it, though, or participate therein. :D heheheh)

Consequently, as a result of this trend, I have found myself falling back more and more on older classics (the X3s and also X2 being significant contributors in this regard, as well as some other highly time-intensive older games), and no longer investing funds in new titles, finding that the return on investment has become dismally poor of late. (In my opinion, btw, the first Dawn of War is far superior to the second.) Luckily, at around the time I made this decision, I also moved out of gaming journalism - or perhaps it wasn't luck but an inevitability, as my views became increasingly incompatible...
Games are cheap now though. It is actually remarkable how cheap games continue to be. An AAA game that cost $60USD in 2000 cost is equivalent to $85USD today. And decent computer hardware is cheap to acquire as well. Gaming is cheaper than its ever been, except for subscription models.
Irrational factors are clearly at work.

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Post by Sparky Sparkycorp » Sat, 12. Aug 17, 13:58

Graaf wrote: That makes TO extremely expensive for just 1 system.

But if I use HOL price/system, who is willing to pay an additional 450 to get the other missing systems from X3?
Comparing system counts between Rebirth and earlier games looks even more inappropriate than comparing sector counts.

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Post by RAVEN.myst » Sat, 12. Aug 17, 14:56

Sandalpocalypse wrote:Games are cheap now though. It is actually remarkable how cheap games continue to be. An AAA game that cost $60USD in 2000 cost is equivalent to $85USD today. And decent computer hardware is cheap to acquire as well. Gaming is cheaper than its ever been, except for subscription models.
In the First World, perhaps. But certainly not where I live, unfortunately. Game price increases (along with the hardware needed to run them, but that's incidental in any case), outpace local cost of living increase and inflation rates (which are themselves quite high and compounded by a gradual but steady decline in total savings among the low and middle economic classes) by a considerable margin. (This is a point that comes up regularly on various gaming forums - people tend to only consider their own local situations and not envision what things are like elsewhere - perfectly understandable, of course, as that's what's relevant to them; but the trap here is to think that local truths are universally applicable - they are not.)

As for subscription models, yes, I think even in the First World these are becoming passe and no longer sustainable - I have seen a number of sub-based MMOs trying various F2P models (with or without P2W elements, variously) in order to survive and continue, in recent years. (Needless to say, in light of my previous paragraph, sub-based games in my country of residence have been inaccessible to any but the wealthy since the start - especially given the deplorably primitive and *even more expensive* Internot infrastructure here - not a typo, that, btw. ;) )
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Post by Graaf » Sat, 12. Aug 17, 17:28

Sparky Sparkycorp wrote:
Graaf wrote: That makes TO extremely expensive for just 1 system.

But if I use HOL price/system, who is willing to pay an additional 450 to get the other missing systems from X3?
Comparing system counts between Rebirth and earlier games looks even more inappropriate than comparing sector counts.
I am merely comparing the number of areas that are linked by jumpgates.

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Post by X2-Illuminatus » Sat, 12. Aug 17, 18:23

Graaf wrote:
Sparky Sparkycorp wrote:
Graaf wrote: That makes TO extremely expensive for just 1 system.

But if I use HOL price/system, who is willing to pay an additional 450 to get the other missing systems from X3?
Comparing system counts between Rebirth and earlier games looks even more inappropriate than comparing sector counts.
I am merely comparing the number of areas that are linked by jumpgates.
And these areas are called systems in X Rebirth and sectors in X3, which are vastly different in design and size. ;)
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Post by Graaf » Sat, 12. Aug 17, 22:56

X2-Illuminatus wrote:And these areas are called systems in X Rebirth and sectors in X3, which are vastly different in design and size. ;)
So Albion, Home of Light, Omicron Lyrae & Maelstrom are different locations in Rebirth compared to X3?


Maybe I should try another example:
As an stand-alone expansion a la X3, you are going to have to pay for Rebirth 2 (aka X4) because they can't make multiple players ships working with the current Rebirth mechanics.

But should "the real X4" have all the races from X3 or are you going to have to pay even more to get the Boron and Paranid? Or DLC to make all ships pilotable?

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Post by spankahontis » Sun, 13. Aug 17, 03:39

Nanook wrote:
spankahontis wrote:Why not just return to the classic Expansion Pack model?....
Kindly explain the differences between an "expansion pack" and "paid DLC"? The only difference I see is that one comes in a box and the other gets downloaded from the internet. :wink:

Expansion packs have everything from tons of new scripts, content, quests, ships and a whole host of other features worthy of a 25-40 pound price tag.

The other is a tiny increase of the original game, a new System, a bunch of new ships, basically a sprinkle of change.

And yeah, I prefer my games in retail, box form, so I can take it back if i'm not satisfied.
Not this 2 hour guarantee from Steam, I don't like the thought of owning something that is physically not in my Hand that Steam could revoke if it wanted to.

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Post by Santi » Sun, 13. Aug 17, 05:53

Graaf wrote:Maybe I should try another example:
As an stand-alone expansion a la X3, you are going to have to pay for Rebirth 2 (aka X4) because they can't make multiple players ships working with the current Rebirth mechanics.

But should "the real X4" have all the races from X3 or are you going to have to pay even more to get the Boron and Paranid? Or DLC to make all ships pilotable?
X4 will have multiple flyable ships, nothing to do with X Rebirth where from day one Egosoft make it clear that only one ship will be flyable.
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Post by Graaf » Sun, 13. Aug 17, 08:36

Santi wrote:
Graaf wrote:Maybe I should try another example:
As an stand-alone expansion a la X3, you are going to have to pay for Rebirth 2 (aka X4) because they can't make multiple players ships working with the current Rebirth mechanics.

But should "the real X4" have all the races from X3 or are you going to have to pay even more to get the Boron and Paranid? Or DLC to make all ships pilotable?
X4 will have multiple flyable ships, nothing to do with X Rebirth where from day one Egosoft make it clear that only one ship will be flyable.
Nothing to do with Rebirth? It's mostly savegame-incompatibility that requires it to be a new game. I highly doubt that they are going to be making a whole new game.
X4 as they like to call it will most likely just be Rebirth 2, the same game you already have with the ability to fly a few more uninteresting ships.

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Post by MegaJohnny » Sun, 13. Aug 17, 15:36

Graaf wrote:
X2-Illuminatus wrote:And these areas are called systems in X Rebirth and sectors in X3, which are vastly different in design and size. ;)
So Albion, Home of Light, Omicron Lyrae & Maelstrom are different locations in Rebirth compared to X3?
Lore-wise, no. Gameplay-wise, yes, and I think it's a bit disingenuous to imply otherwise.

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Post by Nikola515 » Sun, 13. Aug 17, 16:18

I'm pretty sure X4 is going to be XR on steroids... But ill still be waiting until we get some info later this month. As far as we know only S/M ships to pilot and tubes as highways. And we will be able to build stations how ever we want. Perhaps it will be more like complexes where we can build ice refinery with solar panels for example ??? I hope they explain more about this... Anyway hoping for the best and expecting worse ;)
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Post by Sparky Sparkycorp » Sun, 13. Aug 17, 17:34

Nikola515 wrote:we will be able to build stations how ever we want. Perhaps it will be more like complexes where we can build ice refinery with solar panels for example ??? I hope they explain more about this... Anyway hoping for the best and expecting worse ;)
Strictly speaking, Bernd said "[X4] will give you full freedom when building stations from individual modules". Being able to build stations however we want is a possible interpretation. Another could be freedom on the order of module construction, from preset lists of modules.

Edit: I don't have a view on what is more likely. Just wanted to mention the alternative in case we expect something that wasn't promised.

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Post by spankahontis » Sun, 13. Aug 17, 19:05

Graaf wrote:
Santi wrote:
Graaf wrote:Maybe I should try another example:
As an stand-alone expansion a la X3, you are going to have to pay for Rebirth 2 (aka X4) because they can't make multiple players ships working with the current Rebirth mechanics.

But should "the real X4" have all the races from X3 or are you going to have to pay even more to get the Boron and Paranid? Or DLC to make all ships pilotable?
X4 will have multiple flyable ships, nothing to do with X Rebirth where from day one Egosoft make it clear that only one ship will be flyable.
Nothing to do with Rebirth? It's mostly savegame-incompatibility that requires it to be a new game. I highly doubt that they are going to be making a whole new game.
X4 as they like to call it will most likely just be Rebirth 2, the same game you already have with the ability to fly a few more uninteresting ships.

Most People tend to stick to a few certain ships on X3 games anyway.
I only ever went for the ships that had the best stats and half-decent manoeuvrability.
Flying super huge barges and big slows was dull as it was time consuming without SETA.
And if you need an aid like SETA to get you through such ad tedium's and make your Ocre Ship move to the left a little faster then it's a failed feature.
Like fast forwarding through the parts of a film you don't like just to get to the best bits.. Hence why bother even watching the film in the first place?
That you can walk around inside ships, sit in the Cockpit is something to be cheered, Egosoft listened and with VR to add to the whole Cockpit experience paired with the restoration of multiple ships (which I'm sure in future updates will be increased even further) There is no reason to complain about the next title in this fashion or even Rebirth.
Baby steps improvements to getting what we all want.

Seems the littlest things trigger you off when perhaps there are more justifiable ways to to voice issues with the game that could hopefully be readdressed?
Graaf wrote:
But should "the real X4" have all the races from X3 or are you going to have to pay even more to get the Boron and Paranid? Or DLC to make all ships pilotable?
And that's a good point.

X3 didn't have fully fleshed out NPC's, just an animated face on a monitor whenever you commed or shot at their ship.
Plain to see that it was allot simpler for Egosoft to go that route.

What they have now is allot more complex, randomly spawning animated bipeds with voice/dialogue.

I must admit that they may of underestimated the size of the task on this feature as the number of NPC clones that modders have tried to rectify and the Teladi Outpost DLC tried to improve amongst Teladi clones.
I didn't buy the explanation that Teladi were basically clones of each other to justify not putting any visual diversity into their NPC models (Thanks to Lino for listening to me about that, the skins look great!).

But I digress, they said (From what I read somewhere) "One of the Races are making a comeback" Boron/Paranid.
I would gladly pay for an expansion pack to re-introduce the other Faction if it came with a horde of new Systems, content, weapons, ships, voices etc. to justify a 30 pound price tag.
Like they used to do.
I don't trust online dlc and I personally think it shouldn't be encouraged.. I don't want to see Egosoft turning into Creative Assembly; or worse, resorting to micro-transactions just to get a few new skins, a new weapon, a new system etc.
The day that happens is the day I call Egosoft a day and stop supporting them.

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Post by BigBANGtheory » Mon, 14. Aug 17, 09:51

Will DLC be present in X4? Of course it will, crazy question tbh and its not something you are likely to influence as a player so don't let it get under your skin.

The broader and more important question is will it be good or evil DLC? I don't feel ES abused it in XR, you got some for free for a limited period and HoL wasn't just fluffly cockpit dice.

The sad truth is that good examples of DLC is hard to come by where as poor examples are well known peaking with the infamous Skyrim Horse Armour. It tends to be over priced and often smells of publisher interference.

My personal policy on DLC is that is has to be good quality and good value before I'll buy it I don't get emotionally attached to either side of the argument. I think DLC is different from legacy expansions in terms of scope and new content, there has of course been some ropey expansions too. To my mind the best way X Universe can use DLC is to introduce a new gameplay feature with associated content and let the players decide if they like it or not with their purchasing decisions.

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Post by Graaf » Mon, 14. Aug 17, 11:13

spankahontis wrote:Seems the littlest things trigger you off when perhaps there are more justifiable ways to to voice issues with the game that could hopefully be readdressed?
Maybe it's a little thing for you, but I think they are big issues.

You keep all focussing on the "multiple pilotable ships", while the issue is the lack of gameplay because of the single ship limitation, which will not be addressed by more pilotable fighters. It's a problem that is caused by Rebirth being designed around 1 specific ship.

SETA has nothing to do with it. WIS is having an influence because they will try to keep it in the game and thus hampering progress. And VR is catering to about 1% of the total player base, therefor not really helping either.

Rebirth 2 (X4) is not going to solve the problems Rebirth has, nor will any DLC/Expansions for it.

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Post by Sandalpocalypse » Mon, 14. Aug 17, 12:07

:?

the entire x series is developed on a game designed around 1 specific ship... if you liked ANY x game then such design problems are by definition solvable by your own lights!
Irrational factors are clearly at work.

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Post by TDQuasar » Mon, 14. Aug 17, 13:40

I am an old school player of X games. I see absolutely no reason to doubt Egosoft's handling of post-launch contents. I am confident it will be fair and we will also get some free content as usual. They messed up X:R and its launch, but they pretty much fixed the whole situation as much as it was possible. So I will be willing to pay for DLCs for X4, I think they will be meaningful additions.
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