[4.20] ISSUE - motion sickness, nausea, locomotion, teleportation

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KMD
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[4.20] ISSUE - motion sickness, nausea, locomotion, teleportation

Post by KMD » Wed, 9. Aug 17, 12:22

Motion sickness is a common theme in VR. How do you intend to solve this issue?

When I fly around stations with gesture steering it's almost no problem. But when I walk on a station using trackpad movement, it causes me nausa. Is there a possibility to use teleportation instead of controller/trackpad locomotion or could you at least make it smoother, cause its mostly the sudden start and stop that causes the motion sickness? A reduced FOV while walking can also help.

While flying it's always good to have fix points of reference in sight. Players suffering from motion sickness would prefer a cockpit design with smaller windows or thicker window frames like the first we got in XR.
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Post by dertien » Wed, 9. Aug 17, 13:00

Yes, I'm in the same boat as you... It's most noticeable when turning your character to face another direction.

The solution they opted for in Hotfix 2 was to reduce the sensitivity of the x-axis for platform movement.

An unfortunate side effect of this is that this has steepened the gauss curve which defines the position of your thumbstick being centered (0) and it being completely to the left or the right +1 or -1

So the rotation speed was reduced; which helps, but the player's control over your rotation speed (the amount of X-sway left or right of the stick to define rotation speed) has also diminished - because the sweet spot is smaller; and that is making rotational speed control very difficult.

I feel besides teleportation, which feels very immersion breaking in VR, the gauss curve should be much flatter as giving every increment of the thumbstick slightly more gravity. It almost feels like a digital ON/OFF button now, which creates sudden movement and induces nausea.

Hope this makes sense because trying to explain this without getting Confusious is not easy.

EDIT:

Alternative suggested solution.

The Track-IR way:

Meaning: you can rotate or look say 200 degrees around you lin game by physically ooking 30 degrees left or right. Let's say we have this behaviour only on platforms. So looking 25 degrees left makes you look 180 degrees (behind you) in game. You then push the stick forward or backward to move in that direction, without getting whiplash after several gaming sessions.

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Post by Tanall » Wed, 9. Aug 17, 13:26

The problem with motion sickness on foot is you have no fixed point of reference that tells your brain 'I am sitting still, it's the scenery that is moving.'

When in the Skunk, the cockpit accomplishes this.

Perhaps if they add some kind of holographic UI that has depth from the player's perspective, and stays aligned with the facing of the torso? Or have the character wearing a helmet that does not move with the head, with the edges visible in peripheral vision when looking straight on? This would require head motion and character 'steering' to be decoupled.
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Post by Franc Kaos » Wed, 9. Aug 17, 15:50

This would require head motion and character 'steering' to be decoupled.
For me that would be good. In real life when I turn my head I continue moving forward, don't suddenly change direction to where I'm looking.

Not sure this would help, but in Witcher 3 there was a slight speed up / slow down (inertia?) to moving which might help with VR locomotion.

Also, egosoft nerfed the left / right turn too hard, I put it back up to 100 in setting but the view still moves painfully slowly with the Touch, is okay with the joystick for some reason.

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Post by KMD » Wed, 9. Aug 17, 16:19

I am sorry that I wrote this post without extensive testing. I just tried this game on steam for 2 hours and must decide now if I keep it or if I ask for a refund, because the whole VR interface isn't what I expected and the nausea doesn't make it better.

Teleportation isn't a bad solution for me. This is not a shooter game where you need constant movements to avoid bullets. So why not teleport? Head turning while standing still is not a problem, neither 6DOF in room scale VR.

Talking of VR immersion breaking, the whole menu system with free in the air floating 2d layers is much worse!

The idea with the holographic UI as point of reference could easily be testet with some lines or crosshairs in the FOV. Are there any games who use this?
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Post by Tanall » Wed, 9. Aug 17, 16:45

It's not just lines or crosshairs. You need something to remind your brain that you are, in fact, sitting on a stationary platform. If there is no depth to whatever reference you create, it might not work properly. And even then, it needs to be referenced to the platform (body, torso) rather than the user's head.
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Post by KMD » Wed, 9. Aug 17, 19:11

Salnas wrote:...it needs to be referenced to the platform (body, torso) rather than the user's head.
let me guess... a huge virtual boner :lol:

Seriously, how can we fix a reference to the players body and still give him the ability to look and walk around? Did any other game solve this without teleportation (which I still think is the easiest solution for motion sickness)?
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Post by Tanall » Wed, 9. Aug 17, 19:59

The problem with teleportation is that, this is primarily a seated game. Unless you intend for the teleportation to be 'go to this point, at this facing', it would end up requiring standing/room-scale. And since this is primarily a seated game, that would require transitioning from sitting to standing/room-scale...

Shouldnt take much to figure out how bad an idea that would be.

Since we are primarily dealing with a seated game, we need some method of reminding the brain that you are, indeed, still sitting, even though your character is on foot.

Most games that deal with being on foot just go the room-scale/standing rout, but most games dont try to be mixed mode like we are. It's a can of worms that, if Egosoft didnt open it first, Frontier Developments or RSI would need to later.
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Post by eddieg » Thu, 10. Aug 17, 02:46

Dare I suggest the getting-things-done-by-walking-in-stations might just need to get rethought for the VR edition? You just swivel over to a 'station bbs' and do everything that way?

and make it be mini-hacking-game to "get stuff" as if you were walking around finding secrets?

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Post by Santi » Thu, 10. Aug 17, 04:05

eddieg wrote:Dare I suggest the getting-things-done-by-walking-in-stations might just need to get rethought for the VR edition? You just swivel over to a 'station bbs' and do everything that way?

and make it be mini-hacking-game to "get stuff" as if you were walking around finding secrets?
As I understand it, X Rebirth VR did restrict access to Stations by locking the doors to stations because it did cause motion sickness and a hit to performance that caused more motion sickness. Walking on stations was only enabled for certain missions as to reduce motion sickness.

Could be helpful to say if mods are being used to overcome those limitations, and what the fps are once you are inside the Station.
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Post by dertien » Fri, 11. Aug 17, 02:30

I might have found a perfect solution to make motion sickness a non-factor, simply removing it from the equation.

- Motion sickness on platforms is caused by one thing only:

The horizontal rotation of the character while physically sitting on a chair.

Walking forward backward and sideways, as long as the player's eyes are focused on a reference point in the distance does not induce motion sickness.
Nor does moving one's head left or right, it is a natural motion, because the movement is induced by the player and one's rotational head-speed is in sync with the speed at which the environment moves in the game.

It is only rotating, or making a pirouette in either direction that causes it and this only when sitting still on a chair while moving on platforms in vr. My solution would be: hide that rotation from the eyes.

How? Create a sort of camera shutter effect which closes the aperture for the duration of the rotation.

Something like this but quicker:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2sUBj7hQA3g

The complete VR view should fade to black (on platforms)like in G-force simulation on flight simulators, where the screen turns black as long as you keep pulling the stick towards you while your speed is high enough.

So if you turn the stick left or right, to initiate a rotation, the screen shutter masks the unnatural motion sickness. When the stick is neutral, the mask should vanish. As long as the stick is used and rotation is in effect, keep the shutter closed. This means that teleportation is also not required.

To have a point of reference as to where you were looking at, and where you want to go, one front facing arrow or crosshair that points to your old viewing direction could be visible. This arrow or crosshair would be reset every time your screen fades in from black to environment. You could also draw a compass rose at floor level when the screen fades to black only.

This is of course only for the people who play on the platform as a sitting experience. So it should be optional in the settings.

The easiest way to test this of course is to simply close your eyes when you rotate your view on platforms, but you have no real reference as to where you need to go of course.

Thoughts?

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Post by Boeng01 » Fri, 11. Aug 17, 05:43

If its optional, it could be a help for people struck by nausea, even when its an immersion breaker, as teleportation is.

Some kind of 'helmet' view may also help. The Game 'Lone Echo' did a great job in that in my oppinion with those unobtrusive lines that representet some kind of visor, which could also be opened/closed at the players whish. Also it could fit lore-wise into X:R, since a lot of Pilots, Mechanics and other people are wearing helmets/glasses/visors.

I for myself would highly appreciate a raised turn speed again. Maybe not as fast as it was at the first release, but surely higher as it is now. I still didn't find the possibility to adjust speed that someone mentioned.

Performancewise, to be honest, i see absolutley no reason why they've cut off all the station interieurs. Using the open doors mod to explore the stations it runs absolutely smooth, at least like it is right now - since the stations are nearly empty with just 3 people hanging around there :D

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Post by KMD » Fri, 11. Aug 17, 11:08

Stand up to leave the ship!

Seated movement causes nausea. Room Scale could be fun in the cockpit but not in a station, because players would stumble over their invisible chairs.

Playing Stations while standing is a solution that solves all problems with seated turns.

When you leave your ship, you just stand up. You can leave your HOTAS on the desk and take the VIVE wands in your hand. Turning around is natural then. Those who want can use trackpad locomotion, others should have the option to teleport. Standing up from time to time in a long game session is recommended anyway.
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Post by dertien » Fri, 11. Aug 17, 13:15

Boeng01 wrote:If its optional, it could be a help for people struck by nausea, even when its an immersion breaker, as teleportation is.
It should be optional yes. For people who prefer to stand up and do the looking around, and per consequence don't need the 'blink'.
Boeng01 wrote: Some kind of 'helmet' view may also help.
Maybe for some, but not for others. I for one became extremely nauseous playing "narcosis", which features this suggested 'helmet' view.

Furthermore there is an inherent difference in HMD devices.
As I have stated in another post, the VIVE is at this point inferior to the Oculus in both redering quality and FOV. Not only on this game but also on ED.

- FOV is the deal breaker here. The difference between the VIVE and the Oculus is that the peripheral view in the VIVE is warped. When you focus your eyes straight ahead and keep your viewpoint in the center of the "lens" so to speak, all is clear and crisp. One needs to turn one's head and keep eyes focused dead center to look at things instead of moving your eyes to see what's in the immediate peripheral vision.

No such effect troubles the Oculus. It's a difference in hardware used in the HMD's construction - the lenses.

A helmet view, where the helmet is only seen on the edges in that peripheral view, would not help to focus on in order to inhibit nausea.
Boeng01 wrote: I for myself would highly appreciate a raised turn speed again.
Me too to be honest; but with one major difference from HF1 or previous.

The gauss curve that defines the speed adjustment should be much flatter - not the speed itself.
Boeng01 wrote: Performancewise, to be honest, i see absolutley no reason why they've cut off all the station interieurs.
I agree completely, but I prefer to have the mechanic in place that is present now. Meaning you land and you face the mechanic and/or engineer immediately.

in XRVR I have the choice to wander around stations should I wish to do so with said mod - In X-Rebirth Vanilla, the choice is made by the game, and it quckly becomes a chore, because all station interiors are identical copies of identical copies of identical copies. The layouts change but everyone went to the same architect for decoration.

For example, if every system AL/OL/MA/HOL/TO had just ONE type of station in every sector which would just be used for docking - a kind of racialized business center per sector, among the other factories/stations present there, the need for 'performance cuts' on stations would not be a point of discussion.

A good example is one of the Lost Sector's gamestarts where you have to fly out of the hangar... but then each with its own external/internal identity and layout depending on who's boss in that sector.

For example - PMC with yellow and white trim and maybe a bit opulent and art deco style on the interior. Each pirate faction with their own style - The Yaki were inherently different from the other pirates in X3, so where their stations for example. They could go much further than ED has done with it's different flavors of station interiors.

Meaning... we need more variation in smaller quantities. There are too many dockpoints on every station type to which the Skunk can latch on to which can impossibly be given its own personal identity.

Dockpoints on factories could be just be a landing platform with a PMC/HOA banner floating on a pole/ with teleloaders operating boxes in the background...again with different interior trim and company colors....

Same with all the ships flying around which should sport different liveries depending on who's corporation they are flying for. It's fine to have only Volvo's (rahanas), Scania's(lyraneas), Mercs(titurels), Man's(sequanas) and Isuzu's(Midirs) as long as they all clearly show - with different paint - who they are working for.
KMD wrote:Stand up to leave the ship!
That is all fine and dandy as long as all setups allow such a thing - and also depends on your gaming preference. I for one will NOT play with the wands, If I have a Hotas, to each his own. Also, with the Oculus Rift, the sensor loses track of your HMD pretty quickly... my desk is right in front of me and I'm 6'3", my HMD will wander out of the sensor tracking zone pretty quickly.

This works on the VIVE - with the two lighthouses in the standard package, but I'm not going to buy another extra sensor for the Oculus, since I usually play seated.

I for one would love to play Alien Isolation Standing with two wands to control weapons and such... that is however a continuous first person perspective and a different kind of animal from XRVR.

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Post by thaine » Fri, 11. Aug 17, 20:53

dertien wrote: - Motion sickness on platforms is caused by one thing only:

The horizontal rotation of the character while physically sitting on a chair.
I wish mine were that simple. :(

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Post by Boeng01 » Sat, 12. Aug 17, 02:34

dertien wrote:in XRVR I have the choice to wander around stations should I wish to do so with said mod - In X-Rebirth Vanilla, the choice is made by the game, and it quckly becomes a chore, because all station interiors are identical copies of identical copies of identical copies. The layouts change but everyone went to the same architect for decoration.

For example, if every system AL/OL/MA/HOL/TO had just ONE type of station in every sector which would just be used for docking - a kind of racialized business center per sector, among the other factories/stations present there, the need for 'performance cuts' on stations would not be a point of discussion.

A good example is one of the Lost Sector's gamestarts where you have to fly out of the hangar... but then each with its own external/internal identity and layout depending on who's boss in that sector.

For example - PMC with yellow and white trim and maybe a bit opulent and art deco style on the interior. Each pirate faction with their own style - The Yaki were inherently different from the other pirates in X3, so where their stations for example. They could go much further than ED has done with it's different flavors of station interiors.

Meaning... we need more variation in smaller quantities. There are too many dockpoints on every station type to which the Skunk can latch on to which can impossibly be given its own personal identity.

Dockpoints on factories could be just be a landing platform with a PMC/HOA banner floating on a pole/ with teleloaders operating boxes in the background...again with different interior trim and company colors....

Same with all the ships flying around which should sport different liveries depending on who's corporation they are flying for. It's fine to have only Volvo's (rahanas), Scania's(lyraneas), Mercs(titurels), Man's(sequanas) and Isuzu's(Midirs) as long as they all clearly show - with different paint - who they are working for.
I really like most of this ideas, even when i'm sure that they will never make it into XRVR. But to give those hints to Ego for X4 is definitely the right thing. Right now I'm visiting the stations just for searching for trade updaters, since nothing else interesting is in there. And yes, this gets quite boring after the 10th same looking station :D

Without getting into this too deep in this thread, in my oppinion the amount of dockpoints could stay like it is. Flying around a massive station with some miles/km in lenght and height that has only one little spot to dock at while all those private and trade ships going in and out all those ramps would be quite strange and not immersive at all. And to have one 'style' for those dockpoints of one given station would be quite ok, since its the same station. But to have more variety between the stations, different colorschemes, layouts and decorations and, of course, the different paintings on all those ships to see the owner/company they belong to would add a lot to the believability of the game world.

The whole nausea problem is and will surely be one of the big things all VR game developers have to find solutions for. Maybe a combination of different help options which can be chosen by the player will do it for a while. Maybe there will never be the one-fits-all solution to trick the brains of all of us.

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Post by Bazza » Wed, 16. Aug 17, 12:41

dertien wrote:...

The solution they opted for in Hotfix 2 was to reduce the sensitivity of the x-axis for platform movement.

...

An unfortunate side effect of this is that this has steepened the gauss curve which defines the position of your thumbstick being centered (0) and it being completely to the left or the right +1 or -1

So the rotation speed was reduced; which helps, but the player's control over your rotation speed (the amount of X-sway left or right of the stick to define rotation speed) has also diminished - because the sweet spot is smaller; and that is making rotational speed control very difficult.
Ahh, so thats why turning on platforms seems completely borked. I'm one of the lucky ones who seems to be able to tolerate pretty much anything in VR without nausea. I hope we can get some option for turning sensitivity because as it stands, platform navigation with the trackpad is borked. I can hardly turn. Its way too slow.

I think they may as well make station activity menu driven just like elite dangerous.
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Post by eddieg » Mon, 21. Aug 17, 17:30

Bazza wrote:
I think they may as well make station activity menu driven just like elite dangerous.
This! Really! I enjoyed X3 because of flying in space and doing stuff. Don't get me wrong I'm not 100% against getting off ship and walking around... it has merits, but here for a VR edition, it would be really understood to not have this and focus on where VR shines best - SITTING DOWN (flying in space)

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Post by thaine » Wed, 23. Aug 17, 21:01

eddieg wrote:
Bazza wrote:
I think they may as well make station activity menu driven just like elite dangerous.
This! Really! I enjoyed X3 because of flying in space and doing stuff. Don't get me wrong I'm not 100% against getting off ship and walking around... it has merits, but here for a VR edition, it would be really understood to not have this and focus on where VR shines best - SITTING DOWN (flying in space)
+1 on both points

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Post by Tanall » Wed, 23. Aug 17, 21:04

thaine wrote:
eddieg wrote:
Bazza wrote:
I think they may as well make station activity menu driven just like elite dangerous.
This! Really! I enjoyed X3 because of flying in space and doing stuff. Don't get me wrong I'm not 100% against getting off ship and walking around... it has merits, but here for a VR edition, it would be really understood to not have this and focus on where VR shines best - SITTING DOWN (flying in space)
+1 on both points
Perhaps they could go one step further and do it like Freelancer: Have discrete locations that you can visit and get an overview of, rather than just walking to them. Their interior assets would still get use, only now they wouldnt need to worry about things being traversable on foot.
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