Economic Questions

thekins · Post by **thekins** » Sat, 19. Aug 17, 06:09

I started a complex with 1mj shield production x2
impulse ray emitter x1
and others

I'm noticing that the 1mj's sell out nearly instantly but dont seem to be going anyway IE not seeing them in equipment docks/shipyards

I am however noticing the impulse ray emitters are going to shipyards/EQs

Does the game burn those off eventually or how does that work? will i eventually fill up every EQ/Shipyard and sit on useless items?

Does the game have a if X doesnt sell for Ytime delete 5?

same question for other things like wheat or hammer head torpedoes

wheat i can see going somewhere torpedoes go to the military dock and dissapear into the nether?

i currently have a 3k need for IREs but only a 200 supply in the local market index i am that 200.
it doesnt SEEM to be increasing meaning the IREs are being burnt off somehow.

Argon prime is the complex system if that helps.

Are ships actually arming up at stations IE if i went ham on the Argons and decimated their ships would they use the goods in a station to arm up?
Or more likely would they just poof into existance?

Clearly going crazy on the argons would just destroy my station but the Q remains.

TLDR
Does the economy delete unsold items after X time
Will/Can i end up filling all of the need for items after a relatively short time?

thekins · Post by **thekins** » Sat, 19. Aug 17, 06:13

More questions

Can i effectively Walmart the competition
by this i mean if there is
2 wheat farms and 2 cattle ranches and 2 bakeries in a sector
can i build 2 wheat 2 cattle and undercut both of them such that the bakery only buys from me thereby making them fail?

thekins · Post by **thekins** » Sat, 19. Aug 17, 06:19

What kind of money should i shoot for when it comes to complexes?
with the limited time i spent messing about on a complex calculator
i noticed around 1 million per hour was the limit closed loops seemed to provide
before they became either ludicrously expensive or overly complex?

thekins · Post by **thekins** » Sat, 19. Aug 17, 06:24

Last one I can think of
Is there any item I can sell that instantly gets deleted
can i make a massive missile complex that gobbles up all ore/energy in a large radius?

I noticed when I sell the hammer torps they dont go into a stock they just poof?

Timsup2nothin · Post by **Timsup2nothin** » Sat, 19. Aug 17, 07:06

Lots of questions. I'm going to give some general information and then we can sort of start over.

The most significant way that "things go poof" is that ships buy stuff and then set out to deliver it to ... wherever strikes their fancy, and its usually the far side of the universe. By the time they get there usually there's no sale and they go elsewhere...and elsewhere...and elsewhere...until eventually some pirate blows them up along with everything they are carrying.

Now, your IREs and 1MJ shields, if you keep pouring them out in huge numbers, will eventually lead to enough of them reaching various docks that they will start to fill up. Docks also eat products, slowly, so as they fill up that will cause some amount of consumption. They will just disappear, a few at a time. If you are dumping enough that docks are filling up that few at a time won't be enough and eventually they will be filled.

So, that's a bit of how the economy works, at least at the 'finished product' end. I recommend you ponder at that for a while, then narrow down your questions accordingly.

Consider that you are like a guy who just got his first paycheck at his first job and you are asking to have the entire economic impact of the company explained to you over beers after work. There's just not enough beer right now.

We'll be here.

RAVEN.myst · Post by **RAVEN.myst** » Sat, 19. Aug 17, 07:47

Howdy, and welcome!

Nice to see another pilot interested in the economic aspects of the game, instead of just going pew-pew-BOOM (not that there's exactly a shortage of us, in any case.)

As Tim so neatly put it, there's not enough beer just yet (or, in my case, coffee and nicotine in my system), but I'll just answer one of your questions with a (hopefully handy) titbit:

thekins wrote:Last one I can think of
Is there any item I can sell that instantly gets deleted
can i make a massive missile complex that gobbles up all ore/energy in a large radius?

I noticed when I sell the hammer torps they dont go into a stock they just poof?

The last line of your post there gives you a clue - yes, it's possible, and this is how it works: if you sell to an equipment dock an item that it will buy but that it does not stock, then the item gets "sunk" from the game - you get paid for it, but it goes 'poof' as you say. Thus, for instance, if you sell your IREs to a dock that doesn't show them in its list, then you will be paid for them (standard average price) and the IREs will vanish, thus not contributing to market saturation. There's a downside to this, though: it can only be done manually, which is to say, automated traders such as CLS, CAG, and UT, will not sell items to a dock that doesn't list those items on its inventory manifest; therefore, if you want to sink items for cash in this manner, you will build up batches over time, then ship them out manually (you don't need to be personally present, merely directing your ship, likely a freighter, with remote commands) and sell them (likely exceeding the theoretical capacity of the dock, therefore having to sell your batch in a number of "sub-batches".)

As to "a massive missile complex that gobbles up all ore/energy in a large radius" - oh yes, it's certainly possible to deplete an area's production of resources. You will likely find, if you create sufficient demand, that a few extra SPPs and/or ore mines spring up in the area as a result, but there's a predetermined maximum (which explains why you might, in a sector, find Ore Mine alpha and gamma, but no beta - this means that beta exists potentially, and if demand rises sufficiently, an Ore Mine beta will open up for business) - once the area's allotted factories of a type are maxed out, any further increases in demand for that product will converge with the available supply, and you may find yourself having to shop farther afield. Of course, at this point what you could also do is to build your own factories/mines of that sort, as the local factories will be undersupplied and you can thus sell your product dear.

On a related note: it is generally not as lucrative to use your own low-tier resources for your production, but rather sell them and buy more for your own use. Here is a specific example to explain why: If you mine ore, you can usually sell it easily for 150ish (even more, at times, but the market tends to saturate, depending on how much you are selling.) You can pretty much ALWAYS (unless you are really taxing the local supply) buy ore for 50 - this means that if you rip it out of asteroids and use it yourself, you are effectively losing out on 100 credits per unit - rather sell it for ~150 each, and buy triple for the same amount for your own production. (There's a nice little side-effect of this: buying and selling in this manner means you are transacting with other factions, and in so doing gradually improving your relations with them.)

On a related related note: Given the above principle, one quickly realises that closed-loop complexes, while notionally very efficient (after all, being self-sufficient they seem to "cost nothing" in order to produce), are in fact a LOT less lucrative than "open" complexes that participate in the universal economy. Also, trading is a lot more immediate: you buy something, you sell it off - there is no production cycle time involved to constrain your credits per hour; yes, there is travel time involved, but that is involved in manufacturing also, as resources have to be hauled in and products exported, so that's more or less a wash. Hence, a closed-loop complex is *highly* inefficient in terms of productivity per unit time. (However, they are great to experiment with early on, as a means to get to grips with fundamental aspects of the X economy.)

OK, so much for my "quick titbit"... Time for after-breakfast coffee-and-cigarette
Happy hunting! (well, trading/manufacturing/etc. - so "good fortune")

Timsup2nothin · Post by **Timsup2nothin** » Sat, 19. Aug 17, 18:49

RAVEN.myst wrote: The last line of your post there gives you a clue - yes, it's possible, and this is how it works: if you sell to an equipment dock an item that it will buy but that it does not stock, then the item gets "sunk" from the game - you get paid for it, but it goes 'poof' as you say. Thus, for instance, if you sell your IREs to a dock that doesn't show them in its list, then you will be paid for them (standard average price) and the IREs will vanish, thus not contributing to market saturation. There's a downside to this, though: it can only be done manually, which is to say, automated traders such as CLS, CAG, and UT, will not sell items to a dock that doesn't list those items on its inventory manifest; therefore, if you want to sink items for cash in this manner, you will build up batches over time, then ship them out manually (you don't need to be personally present, merely directing your ship, likely a freighter, with remote commands) and sell them (likely exceeding the theoretical capacity of the dock, therefore having to sell your batch in a number of "sub-batches".)

This is the sort of specific comment that can create a discussion of manageable proportion. Everything in it is correct, but there are details that can be added.

If I want to use this sort of 'sinkable' product I park a large ship (probably one that I capped and can't be bothered with repairing) at the dock in question, then set up a CLS pilot to pick up the goods at my factory and deliver them to that ship. If I need cash I 'flush' the contents. I also try to flush them at ragged intervals so the production line doesn't get backed up...but if I forget and production does stop the solution is a one step flush and everything else goes back to normal automatically.

thekins · Post by **thekins** » Sat, 19. Aug 17, 21:42

overall my suspicions were correct. ive played other games "like" this one alla the guild 2. Buggy but the same core concept items get deleted after an amount of time oversold items become worth dog turds.

however in that game you couldnt starve out your competition. IE own all lumber production in the game world (it would just spawn lumber.)

I also know a bit about coding so the way I would personally code the economy is reflected in some respects in this game.

As far as min-maxing complexes go ill leave that to the more endeavored I mostly wanted a baseline as to what was considered terrible/good.

Much like in EVE you have your people making 20 billion isk a week and you have some making 500 million. Both are doing the job correct one just went a bit extreme.

RAVEN.myst · Post by **RAVEN.myst** » Sun, 20. Aug 17, 00:38

Regarding "starving out your competition" - I have an alternative approach I like to use: instead of competing against the NPC factories, I essentially co-opt them to work for me - the mechanism requires using the advanced autonomous trading pilot scripts, so if and when you are interested, feel free to ask.

As for extremes of income, I guess it comes down to what a player's goals are. In EVE, I am a lot closer to the lower of the brackets you mention, for example, but for me earning the ISK to "pay the monthly rent" isn't the object of the game, it is a facilitator (though I manage to make it an enjoyable portion of the game time spent, in itself), so once I've earned ~2 month of PLEX, the rest of the month I spend spending (yes, I know, inelegant wording, hehehehe) any surplus, and just screwing around for fun.

In the Xs, it's a little different, because there are more opportunities for automation, in the form of all the autonomous ships that can operate themselves (as opposed to EVE's current ship only model) - so in addition to industrial processes running in the background, you can also have an extensive trade network operating "hands-free", and even deploy groups or fleets to complete some military missions by proxy.

On the topic of the economy, I also wish it were less dependent on faucets and sinks to make it work, but of course that runs several risks: for starters, a fully "realistic" economy can easily grind to a halt if just a couple of variables go out of kilter, either accidentally/spontaneously, or through accidental or intentional player intervention; also, through similar manipulation, such an economy would probably be easier for a player to dominate. Nevertheless, I wish there was such an economic model, even if optional, for me to splash about in. (DIGRESSION: I read about a mod for X2 that removed the ECell faucet, making NPC solar power plants operate in the same manner as player-owned ones ie. consuming crystals in order to produce ECs, and where the rest of the universe's factories start empty, if I recall correctly, with the player starting with a bunch of the universe's last ECs, with the challenge being to successfully kickstart and then maintain the universal economy - I very much wish I could find that mod, as it sounds like a fun playthrough.)

Anyhow, I'm rambling (that's SO unlike me...!

)
o7

jlehtone · Post by **jlehtone** » Sun, 20. Aug 17, 19:53

I'll just repeat the above answers.

The SPP are sources. NPC SPP's require nothing in order to produce ECells. Player SPP's use Crystals, but produce more ECells than it takes to produce the consumed Crystals. Therefore, ECells flow from SPPs to everyone else.

Factories (and Mines) convert primary resources into products.

Some NPC Factories consume secondary resources at steady rate. That consumption is a sink for wares and unrelated to Factory's production-function.

NPC Docks --Trading Stations, Equipment Docks (and presumably Military Bases) are ware sinks that consume at steady rate.

The "steady rate" of both sinks is probably statistical. The longer and more there is ware in stock, the higher chance that some of it vanishes.

Ships haul products to consumers. Some of the ships are lost in transit, which creates an additional sink. Lost NPC ships are replaced; the game maintains quite stable amount of NPC ships.

Wares have no age. They never become old. They don't go "poof", except on the sinks.

Each sector has a predefined list of NPC Stations. The NPC Factories can be on (exists and runs) or off (does not exists). GoD (Global Decision engine) turns NPC stations on and off based on Economic Events. Off: station is killed. On: NPC TL hauls Station Construction Kit to a site and then a Factory appears.

The exact triggers for positive and negative Events remain unknown. Apparently frequent visits by ships (or someone staying docked) protects against negative event.

Profitability of a NPC Factory does not seem to be a huge factor. Most Factories run at loss by design. When their resource stocks are below half, they offer above average price and that is the only case where the NPC Free Traders (and most player traders) choose to do a delivery. The product stock on aFactory must be more than full, i.e. below average price before NPC traders will come to collect.

In other words: assume that NPC Factories sell at minimum price and buy for maximum price. Most of them run thus at loss all the time. They do not know word 'bankrupt'.

The NPC Factories do not own freighters. They are at the mercy of outside traders. If NPC and you have a Ranch side by side, yours can have freighters to serve their 'home'. Your Ranch will not have to lure Energy Transports with high price, they can dispatch a buyer to SPPs to buy cheap ECells. Your Ranch does not have to lure buyers with low price, it can haul the Beef out to creates demand, i.e. best profit.

No, you cannot make NPC Factories "fail". In fact, you don't want to. Credits come from NPC transactions. You want more NPC. You want them running good. That maximizes your profit opportunities.

Bio factory converts ECells into Food.
Mine converts ECells into Minerals.
Food factory converts ECells+Bio into Food.
Tech Factory converts ECells+Food+Minerals into Tech ware.

NPC Cahoona Bakery is a bit special. It has two primary Bio resources. It does not use both for one production cycle. It uses either ECells+Wheat or ECells+Beef to make one lot of Cahoonas. Not both. Some Tech factories can use both Ore and Silicon Wafers, but not both for one cycle.

The selection of resource for a cycle is probably by availability/random.

The NPC Forges have multiple products. Each production cycle produces only one product type.

If you do browse https://www.egosoft.com/games/x3ap/statistics_en.php
you will find an entry that has over 1bil/hour theoretical profit rate from nearly 23'000 stations.