No useless ships

This forum is the ideal place for all discussion relating to X4. You will also find additional information from developers here.

Moderator: Moderators for English X Forum

Useless NPC ships?

Keep them to make universe seem more busy
114
75%
Leave them out of the game
39
25%
 
Total votes: 153

Falcrack
Posts: 4929
Joined: Wed, 29. Jul 09, 00:46
x4

No useless ships

Post by Falcrack » Wed, 20. Sep 17, 15:53

I would like to propose that for X4, that a ship will not exist flying around unless it serves an actual gameplay purpose. It needs to perform some actual function rather than act as window dressing, or to make the universe feel more "alive". Examples of that from X3 would be stuff like Arena ships, spacefly collectors, and civilian ships in general. From Rebirth, that would include mass traffic that does not actually carry goods, extra ships populating the highways to force us into the insane minigame of avoiding collisions (please do not do this to us again Egosoft!)

If a ship is flying around, it should be serving some sort of function, like carrying goods, trading, providing security, being part of military task force, even shuttling NPCs that may need to get from one place to another. Maybe all it does is consume resources, acting as a resource sink, but at least that is something. It does not bother me in the least to see somewhat fewer ships, as long as I know that each ship I see is actually serving an important purpose.

User avatar
Morkonan
Posts: 10113
Joined: Sun, 25. Sep 11, 04:33
x3tc

Post by Morkonan » Wed, 20. Sep 17, 16:04

In X3TC, every ship serves a purpose. There are relatively few "flavor ships" in X3TC and, when there are, they are still serving a valuable purpose in adding some spice to the setting and environment.

IMO, we've been spoiled by knowing that ships are actually doing something and that if we followed them, for instance, we'd see them delivering cargo, trading, moving to attack a sector, etc..

A few casinos, arenas or UFOs scattered about turns up the "realism" dial, adding a spot of color to one's immersion. It's quite possible for one to imagine these ships serving a true purpose, even if they're "window dressing" in a few sectors.

User avatar
Crimsonraziel
Posts: 992
Joined: Sun, 27. Jul 08, 16:12
x4

Re: No useless ships

Post by Crimsonraziel » Wed, 20. Sep 17, 16:16

Falcrack wrote:[...] shuttling NPCs that may need to get from one place to another
But there are no NPCs that actually get tranported from A to B. We're only pretending it.
So what's the difference to "useless ships" like you call them?
Don't make me hungry. You wouldn't like me when I'm hungry!
#MakeNishalaGreatAgain #BoronLivesMatter :boron:
#LoveAldrin #FreeAlbion #ReturnOfMegalodon

User avatar
Morkonan
Posts: 10113
Joined: Sun, 25. Sep 11, 04:33
x3tc

Post by Morkonan » Wed, 20. Sep 17, 16:29

Just a note: In X3TC, "prisoner ships" transport "prisoners" to work as, presumably, forced labor at certain complexes. I'm not sure how that's decided. "Taxis" also take passengers places. They're all TPs, I think.

AFAIK, passengers are actually aboard these ships, since I seem to recall watching a prison ship crash into a station and disgorge some "passengers(Prisoners)." I could be wrong, there, but I also seem to remember scanning a prisoner ship when I first saw it and it did have "Prisoners" on it as passengers.

IOW - They were doing something and did have special passengers not found in other ships.

Sparky Sparkycorp
Moderator (English)
Moderator (English)
Posts: 8074
Joined: Tue, 30. Mar 04, 12:28
x4

Post by Sparky Sparkycorp » Wed, 20. Sep 17, 16:31

Voted for option 1 with the last word imagined to be "alive" rather than "busy".

RAVEN.myst
Posts: 2585
Joined: Mon, 20. Jun 11, 13:16
x3tc

Post by RAVEN.myst » Wed, 20. Sep 17, 16:33

I don't mean to nitpick, but surely if a ship exists to [do something - anything] then it has a purpose? In that case, ships that exist "only" as "window-dressing" are fulfilling a purpose - and in my opinion a crucial one. People keep pointing at things like nice interior wall textures and NPC models as "adding to immersion", but I would argue that since the bulk of the game is played in space by the bulk of the audience, it is *in space* that immersion elements are most effective, and there is where they ought to be emphasized.

That being said, I have to admit that the WAY these ships portray commerce and other activity could use a bit more thought. I find that the mess-traffic (not a typo :P ) looks cheesy and unconvincing in Rebirth - for one thing, here are all these SPACE vehicles lining up like ants instead of USING the space available to them (reminds me of a couple of scenes in Tripping the Rift - but that's farcical comedy, so it's "appropriate" there - if one can say there's ANYTHING "appropriate" about Tripping the Rift :P ) Also, the density is too uniform, consistent - it's as though there's a 24/7 traffic jam going on. In short, I think it needs an overhaul, starting with "plausibility" and taking it from there...

(In the previous Xs, the traffic is a bit more "all over the place" due to the fact that there are multitudinous points of departure and arrival - multiple gates, plus stations scattered all over a sector. Thus, there are numerous possible paths for ships to take, which to me makes a lot more sense than these "space lanes". This isn't to say that there aren't, in the older Xs, certain "lanes" of higher traffic density brought about by important bottlenecks - and that, too, is as it ought to be: things are not homogeneous and uniform, but rather display differences in density and timing.)
-
Boron passenger: "You must hurry - my testicles are drying out!"
-
Born on Lave, raised on Freeport 7...
-
The Write Stuff

carran
Posts: 820
Joined: Wed, 6. Nov 02, 20:31
x4

Post by carran » Wed, 20. Sep 17, 16:41

Not everything has to be useful (to the player) to have value - I rather like the perception of something else going on in the universe serving entirely different purposes

caleb
Posts: 793
Joined: Wed, 6. Nov 02, 20:31
x3tc

Post by caleb » Wed, 20. Sep 17, 16:48

It's a game. I prefer to have stuff that looks nice (even if not realistic) just to make it more fun.

gbjbaanb
Posts: 667
Joined: Sat, 25. Dec 10, 23:07
x3tc

Post by gbjbaanb » Wed, 20. Sep 17, 17:13

RAVEN.myst wrote:
(In the previous Xs, the traffic is a bit more "all over the place" due to the fact that there are multitudinous points of departure and arrival - multiple gates, plus stations scattered all over a sector. Thus, there are numerous possible paths for ships to take, which to me makes a lot more sense than these "space lanes". This isn't to say that there aren't, in the older Xs, certain "lanes" of higher traffic density brought about by important bottlenecks - and that, too, is as it ought to be: things are not homogeneous and uniform, but rather display differences in density and timing.)
Yes, the ships going all over the place where A to B was anywhere, was a good part of what made X3's universe seem alive, even if chaotic. Tightly organised freeways are just dull and make the universe seem a lot more railroaded, as in "you can go anywhere you like as long as its this one destination".

What makes it even more interesting is to watch the ships organise their own kind of space lanes as many of them do travel to the same points. I liked that.

User avatar
Morkonan
Posts: 10113
Joined: Sun, 25. Sep 11, 04:33
x3tc

Post by Morkonan » Wed, 20. Sep 17, 17:56

gbjbaanb wrote:...
What makes it even more interesting is to watch the ships organise their own kind of space lanes as many of them do travel to the same points. I liked that.
Sitting in a remote sector, doing one's "paperwork" in X3TC, managing one's assets and transfers, training and patrols, and then just taking a look around at the map and watching how the "Ant Farm" of merchant and even military traffic begins to develop... That was a lot of fun and very immersive.

I remember watching as sectors in which I concentrated my building efforts began to explode with traffic. Hundreds of ships would form in snaking trails from one gate to another or would stack up around critical station complexes and then slowly move off as their trading was done.

There were times when a predator would sit in the middle of this trail of ants, picking off meals left and right as merchants too slow to escape would just blunder right into a Q's clutches.

Then, I might see a fleet heading off to take care of this intruder or, more often, I'd see a few brave patrol vessels with more guts than sense try to take on that ship and merchants scrambling to get out of the way.

That map, with a properly constructed satellite network, became an Ant Farm. You could follow one freighter on that map, from one end of the galaxy to another, if you wished. You could watch it respond to a nearby threat or change its course (rarely).

So, yeah, I like the dynamics that such an emergent system represents. :)

User avatar
JSDD
Posts: 1378
Joined: Fri, 21. Mar 14, 20:51
x3tc

Post by JSDD » Wed, 20. Sep 17, 18:01

i dont think useless ships are needed, every ship should have a purpose, as it was (mostly) in X3, except some civilian ships. in X3 i never interacted with no-use-ships, in case i wanted to plunder some wares i'd pick a weapon / tech trader with valuable wares.

instead of useless ships, egosoft should make some plugins like "pirate guild" which bring "action" into the universe ... a khaak invasion script, xenon takeover script, some other "artificial life" script, but not useless ships.
To err is human. To really foul things up you need a computer.
Irren ist menschlich. Aber wenn man richtig Fehler machen will, braucht man einen Computer.


Mission Director Beispiele

Graaf
Posts: 4155
Joined: Fri, 9. Jan 04, 16:36
x3tc

Re: No useless ships

Post by Graaf » Wed, 20. Sep 17, 18:20

Crimsonraziel wrote:
Falcrack wrote:[...] shuttling NPCs that may need to get from one place to another
But there are no NPCs that actually get tranported from A to B. We're only pretending it.
So what's the difference to "useless ships" like you call them?
It's on his way to pick someone up then.

Nanook
Moderator (English)
Moderator (English)
Posts: 27829
Joined: Thu, 15. May 03, 20:57
x4

Re: No useless ships

Post by Nanook » Wed, 20. Sep 17, 22:22

Falcrack wrote:I would like to propose that for X4, that a ship will not exist flying around unless it serves an actual gameplay purpose. It needs to perform some actual function rather than act as window dressing, or to make the universe feel more "alive". Examples of that from X3 would be stuff like Arena ships, spacefly collectors, and civilian ships in general...
How are these not useful? I can attempt to capture them and use or sell them. That makes them far from useless. :roll:
Have a great idea for the current or a future game? You can post it in the [L3+] Ideas forum.

X4 is a journey, not a destination. Have fun on your travels.

User avatar
Killjaeden
Posts: 5366
Joined: Sun, 3. Sep 06, 18:19
x3tc

Post by Killjaeden » Wed, 20. Sep 17, 22:37

Civilian (non trader) ships i find also important to the atmosphere. Having every ship tie into all the games mechanic does not really create a believable universe (unless there are so many game mechanics that allows all the npcs to not be useless).
[ external image ]
X-Tended TC Mod Team Veteran.
Modeller of X3AP Split Acinonyx, Split Drake, Argon Lotan, Teladi Tern. My current work:
Image

User avatar
sd_jasper
Posts: 345
Joined: Mon, 25. Jan 16, 00:44
x4

Post by sd_jasper » Wed, 20. Sep 17, 23:57

I don't think that a ship has to be directly transporting goods or persons to serve a purpose. They could just be an indication of station population and productivity.

Think how in the older SimCity games they would show the little traffic jams to show that the roads, population, and work/residential distribution had some issues. But there wasn't an actual "person" in each "car" they just were their as an indication of some numbers the game had in the background.

I think that "window dressing" ships could also serve a purpose like this. Maybe stations that have low production or population have fewer ships flying around them, and as that changes so does the ship density.

Falcrack
Posts: 4929
Joined: Wed, 29. Jul 09, 00:46
x4

Post by Falcrack » Thu, 21. Sep 17, 01:14

Morkonan wrote:Just a note: In X3TC, "prisoner ships" transport "prisoners" to work as, presumably, forced labor at certain complexes. I'm not sure how that's decided. "Taxis" also take passengers places. They're all TPs, I think.

AFAIK, passengers are actually aboard these ships, since I seem to recall watching a prison ship crash into a station and disgorge some "passengers(Prisoners)." I could be wrong, there, but I also seem to remember scanning a prisoner ship when I first saw it and it did have "Prisoners" on it as passengers.

IOW - They were doing something and did have special passengers not found in other ships.
No they were not doing something, as the people they were transporting did not actually serve a purpose as part of a gameplay element. If they were needed to actually make factories work, then you would have a point.
Last edited by Falcrack on Thu, 21. Sep 17, 01:19, edited 1 time in total.

Falcrack
Posts: 4929
Joined: Wed, 29. Jul 09, 00:46
x4

Re: No useless ships

Post by Falcrack » Thu, 21. Sep 17, 01:15

Nanook wrote:
Falcrack wrote:I would like to propose that for X4, that a ship will not exist flying around unless it serves an actual gameplay purpose. It needs to perform some actual function rather than act as window dressing, or to make the universe feel more "alive". Examples of that from X3 would be stuff like Arena ships, spacefly collectors, and civilian ships in general...
How are these not useful? I can attempt to capture them and use or sell them. That makes them far from useless. :roll:
Useless to all but the player who wants to exploit a mechanic not available to NPCs. Not my personal preference, I want gameplay mechanics that are available to the player to also be avaiable to NPCs. In other words, they need to be doing something more than just acting as targets for the player, or just acting as visual eye candy.

wwdragon
Posts: 3746
Joined: Mon, 1. Oct 07, 02:18
x4

Post by wwdragon » Thu, 21. Sep 17, 06:17

Gotta keep em in. OP, I disagree about your X3 analysis of pointless traffic.
Those things were the first things you could board, so were totally needed.

In X:R, I NEVER saw a mass traffic vehicle transit goods, so yes those were useless eye dressing.
However, I would not want to get rid of ALL civilian traffic... think about rl when you go visit a friend for birthday or wedding.

You NEED some civies and so called 'useless traffic'.
Editing posts since long before I remember.

Reprisal
Posts: 78
Joined: Sun, 18. May 14, 04:34
x4

Post by Reprisal » Thu, 21. Sep 17, 09:39

I'm in two minds about it. If we have massive trading ships and no real small trading ships like X Rebirth. Then we need fake traffic.

If on the other hand we have a lot of small trading ships like X2/X3, then we don't.

User avatar
Vandragorax
Posts: 1183
Joined: Fri, 13. Feb 04, 04:25
x4

Post by Vandragorax » Thu, 21. Sep 17, 12:09

I feel that 'fluff' traffic serves a very useful purpose in making the world not seem completely empty. I don't remotely care one bit about inspecting every single asset in the zone I see flying around and expecting it to have a 'job', what it's doing, and all that. It's completely irrelevant.

What matters is that the world doesn't seem totally empty. Imagine a game like GTA where no other cars are driving around on the streets randomly, or Far Cry with no wildlife like birds, fish, etc.

Things that you don't directly care about interacting with (but can maybe blow up if you desire) do help the world to feel more alive. Granted it could be improved upon over X:R's 'traffic jam' style but even that isn't too bad. It all helps to make the stations feel more active.

I vote to keep the fluff traffic, but some improvements to realism in this area would be nice. And by realism I mean their behaviour, not that I care about them having 'real jobs' or 'targets' to go to.

The other advantage to not having them all performing 'real jobs' is that it's way easier on the game to only have to populate fluff and not integrate it into the economy. If every tiny civ ship in the game has to have a real task, the economy has to be taken into account for everyone of them and that is a really big balancing issue. It's undoubtedly easier for Egosoft to only need to account for medium/large ships in this regard, and leave the small fluff ships out of the picture.

Post Reply

Return to “X4: Foundations”