Research... Anything else aside from teleportation?

[Kitty]

'That Moore’s law applies at all to so many different industries is a surprise, since computing has often been regarded as a special case. “It’s a much more general thing,” says author Doyne Farmer, currently at the University of Oxford, UK.'

And Intel CEO said that "Moore law has been set as an objective for his company, so that all was done to make it become true.". Thus, if Moore used a different constant, it would still be true.

Not all researches in every universities say intelligent things. Sometimes they take it by the wrong side.

[gbjbaanb]

I remember playing a game that had an interesting research method. First, not all research was available for every game instance you played. Some were guaranteed, but a few were not. This made every session different. Secondly, research was not "spend xx amount of resources over xx time and get xx research." Research could attain its goal sooner or later than an expected date. Sometimes, research would take significantly longer than one had originally thought.

That was possibly Sword of the Stars. Awesome game.

I now recall there have been several games like this, mostly science-fiction sorts of games, since it's hard to imagine how one's research teams couldn't figure out how to make a "Wheel" rounder, so it would be roundish, capable of roundish things, like wheelness... And, that's another part of research - Making the thing better.

If you think of games like Civilisation, you could "research" things like currency. Obviously its a game mechanic doing this kind of research so I'm OK with it. Similarly, research improvements to tech, like "shields level 2" is sort of OK too, many people have an iPhone 6 after all

However, I don't like the levels to tech, it turns the technology into a kind of "mini game" where you grind away to get better stuff. That works for some games, but only those that have limited scope and use the tech improvement mechanism as gameplay to keep you interested. X4 really doesn't need such a thing, the game is more than researching tech in such a simplified manner and I would vote not to have it if I had a vote. What's I'd prefer is different items that have different characteristics, as we had with weapons in X3 - do you want something slower firing that does lots of damage, or the fast firing pea shooter? Improvement should be through different models of item, with slightly different advantages and disadvantages. The idea that you just get "better things" should be left to the kiddies who are only interested in being better than everyone else "for teh win".

[mr.WHO]

Umh Guys, I just read 3 pages of overcomplicated bable.
This is a computer game, not a reality simulation where you want to build the particle accellerator.

The research need to be kept simple and fun:
- teleportation device
- reverse engineering of existing ships so we could build then in our stations
- production upgrades so we could build ships cheaper and/or with less resourcess
- research of not - existing weapons/upgrades and/or Xenon weapons
- research ability to board/capture/hack Xenon ships
- "prototype ships" - version of existing ship that can have better stats or some better/some worse or even general worse stats (failed prototypes)
- "new ships" - custom ships not existing in the market (e.g. some plot ships, or good entry point for community made ship mods)


This is not Civilisation or Master of Orion we don't need huge research tree and mechanics.

[Memnoch]

This is not Civilisation or Master of Orion we don't need huge research tree and mechanics.

It's not a question of need. And who is "we" by the way. Who do you speak for exactly?

[Seanchaidh]

Given how dissatisfied I've been with research trees in total war games, I'm skeptical of them here. That being said, as long as it makes sense why it's a research and what you actually do to accomplish the research is reasonable, then I don't mind. However, if the game feels incomplete or too limited without completing some research option, then I think that's a problem. If there is short range teleportation (like X3) available from (say) Terracorp initially, and then you have to do something interesting involving Terran tech to "research" or prototype longer range teleportation, that seems good. But if it's "deliver 3000 microchips to Bala Gi and then..." I won't be pleased. Because at that point, the question becomes "why can't I subcontract this?"

[RAVEN.myst]

I go AFC for most of a day, and I come back to all these interesting posts - sweet! (And made all the sweeter by the gentle buzz of several toots of fine whiskey... and a public holiday tomorrow! )

Apparent Moore's law has wider application that just microchips. From the summary of a paper submitted to Scientific American.

'That Moore’s law applies at all to so many different industries is a surprise, since computing has often been regarded as a special case. “It’s a much more general thing,” says author Doyne Farmer, currently at the University of Oxford, UK.'

This I didn't know - thank you. I now have something to "research" (heheheh) - well, in that abused "Internet research" sense of the word. ^^

And Intel CEO said that "Moore law has been set as an objective for his company, so that all was done to make it become true.". Thus, if Moore used a different constant, it would still be true.

Ah, good point - a self-fulfilling prophecy, then. Just like every astrology source tells me that as a Gemini, I'm [supposedly] "intelligent, articulate, personable, fun-loving, and at least a bit crazy", so consequently from that point on I subconsciously (perhaps rather more deliberately, in the case of corporations, of course) seek to prove true that mostly desirable description through my actions/efforts (and my self-perception!)

However, I don't like the levels to tech, it turns the technology into a kind of "mini game" where you grind away to get better stuff. That works for some games, but only those that have limited scope and use the tech improvement mechanism as gameplay to keep you interested. X4 really doesn't need such a thing, the game is more than researching tech in such a simplified manner and I would vote not to have it if I had a vote. What's I'd prefer is different items that have different characteristics, as we had with weapons in X3 - do you want something slower firing that does lots of damage, or the fast firing pea shooter? Improvement should be through different models of item, with slightly different advantages and disadvantages. The idea that you just get "better things" should be left to the kiddies who are only interested in being better than everyone else "for teh win".

I completely agree. In a predominantly "sandbox" game, I think a better overall approach (I think it IS ok to have at most a few quests/missions that portray participation in a "research" project as a story device more than anything else) would be to have additional options (some of them improvements) being made available through exploration - by which I don't mean merely "exploration" in the literal sense of going around finding things, but also in the broader sense of exploring the universe, the political regions, economic markets, industries, and so forth.

- teleportation device
- reverse engineering of existing ships so we could build then in our stations
- production upgrades so we could build ships cheaper and/or with less resourcess
- research of not - existing weapons/upgrades and/or Xenon weapons
- research ability to board/capture/hack Xenon ships
- "prototype ships" - version of existing ship that can have better stats or some better/some worse or even general worse stats (failed prototypes)
- "new ships" - custom ships not existing in the market (e.g. some plot ships, or good entry point for community made ship mods)

Overall, I like all of these suggestions (especially research that unlocks/expands game mechanics, such as figuring out how to board Xenon ships - I REALLY like that idea! It pushes it toward later in the game, too, achieving in an alternative way what X3TC/AP did through lengthy marine training and player skills-honing - though the latter ought not to be eliminated, in my opinion.)

... you have to do something interesting...

Yes, that's key, in my opinion - "something INTERESTING", as opposed to "deliver 3000 microchips to some silly liquid-breather". I think the most viable way to implement such research elements is not to try to shoehorn in some incongruous, ill-fitting, and cobbled-together extraneous new game mechanic that feels out of place, but rather to implement it via tropes/paradigms already existing in and iconic to X games: story-driven quests, but interesting ones. So, to reuse the above example, instead of said thousands of bits of silicon integrated circuits, perhaps a shortish but intense and varied series of missions (or "plot", in X nomenclature) including maybe some "deep-space" exploration, a bit of station-walking content (since it's already in), perhaps a tough challenge such as boarding a Xenon capital ship to acquire some piece of exotic tech to be used as a component, maybe some political shenanigans - and I by no means mean all of the above, necessarily (if several such projects are to be included, then each can have a different mix of mission types consistent with its own story arc.)

[ZaphodBeeblebrox]

I was thinking that a research facility would be something special.
Something the player would need to keep funding in order for it to work.
It would also require staffing and supplies etc.
It would also be expensive. Such that a player would have to already
have a small empire before this became a possibility. Then research
would only come into its own in the later game.

Now in the future one has to assume that the technologies in use are mature.
Therefore a "new astounding break through" is going to be a rare event.

What is most likely to happen is something similar to the automotive industry.
The internal combustion engine is a rather well understood piece of technology.
But add Superchargers or Turbochargers and the game changes.
What we see is the original technology has been refined but then other new secondary
technologies are developed that in this example improve power output.

[UniTrader]

This is not Civilisation or Master of Orion we don't need huge research tree and mechanics.

It's not a question of need. And who is "we" by the way. Who do you speak for exactly?

i guess for himself. he just wants to give his voice more weight.
Also i disagree with this because it reads to me like a Plot/Story Checklist, and when you are finished there is nothing more to do, so you either move on or start over.


in my opinion research in X needs a long "Tech Tree", not necesarily an extensive/branching one, just "linear" progression which makes older ships/objects weaker compared to newer ones - because Games usually last very long. This could be based on a Formula instead of defining what each Tech Level does by itself (making the "tech tree" basically endless)

This does not mean there will be no fundamentally new Tech which was not there at the beginning, but this stuff should imo not be introduced by regular progression of the Game but by Story/Plots. Once they are done the new Tech might also get regular gradual improvements via the regular research (or it might not if it doesnt make sense)

i guess i will explain my mod idea how i wanted to implement R&D in XR by describing the core points:

The first Points are describing how Research is done and used by the Nonplayer Factions, how the player can make use of it and research himself is explained after that

=> Research is done by special "Research Stations" which produce "Tech Points" for a cretain Region/Set of Factions. For example Omicron Lyrae, DeVries/Cantera, Albion, Home of Light(+Cold Star+ part of Toride).

=> Depending on how much the faction/region is ahead/behind in Research this necesary Time/requirements for further progression change (its easier to catch up with existing stuff than to stay ahead, or get there for that matter)

=> Said Tech Points will gradually Improve the Shield and Weapon Systems and to a lesser degree (because vey difficult in X to balance/counter-balance) Radar, Speed, Maneuverability and Cargo of all Ships created by/for the Factions in the Region.
I am not yet sure if there should be targetted research to definite goals (eg upgrading Shields, Upgrading Weapon Systems etc.) or if each Level should provide a Bonus to all of them, but not uniformly for each type of System (at certain times Shields from a region will be better, on other times their Weapons). Maybe use some Research preferences like the Player can have described below, just more granular (not just a preffered direction, but define the chance if all are equal in progress)

=> Already existing Ships will not immediately profit from new available tech, but they will be upgradedon Shipyard visits. This will also not be an upgrade to the best available but it will be based on each factions readiness to "pay" for upgrades. Government/Research Factions will upgrade to higher levels, Energy/Food Suppliers to a bit lower ones. The same applies to new Ships, although they usually start with better tech (to account for this the beginning tech level for every region is not 1 but a higher value like 10)

Special Research Rules for certain Factions:
=> Xenon: they dont do active Research (which economy should power that? ) but instead every Ship they kill and every Ship of them which is destroyed adds to their Knowlege/Research pool. This way you can keep the relatively tame by simply not interacting with them, or turn them into an unstoppable threat which simply steamrolls the Universe (how long can you survive?).

=> Khaak: not sure about these, maybe make them similiar to Xenon or use the lower end of the galactic tech level as their base level when spawned and let them upgrade each Ship through Individual Nividium Mining (meaning that they get more Dangerous the longer you leave them alone, but usually they mind their own buisness and dont actively look for a fight)

=> Pirates: the Tech Level for their New/spawned Ships is based on their Home Region, similiar to the Civil Factions (at the lower end though). But instead of Upgrading they will attempt to capture better Ships, possibly swapping them for their outdated ones, possibly adding them (if their current one is still modern enough)


How to integrate the Player into this:
=> The player can choose how modern he equips Ordered/Upgraded Ships on Nonplayer Shipyards. The Available Tech depends on the Shipyard Owner and may be restricted by Faction Standings (meaning that you basically can always buy Battle Ships unlike in X3, but because the factions dont give you their newest and shiny tech their usefulness might only lie in suppressing local pirates, not in overthrowing the government which sold you he Ships)

=> R&D itself is an mid game addition and End Game Content/Goal which is made available simultaneously with own Ship Production

=> Similiar to the Factions you have to put Ressources into research. if you just want to keep up with the others you can get this done for basically an apple and an egg, but if you want to get and stay ahead you have to constantly put lots of ressources into it (and indirectly this will cause the others to advance faster because you reduce their research requirements)

=> You can build Ships based on your Tech Level on Nonplayer Shipyards, but this will give the related Faction basically some free Research points if your Tech is more advanced than theirs. the same is true for Upgrades. To avoid this you must build your most modern Ships (or do your Hi-End Upgrades) at your own facilities

=> (this is a follow up to the third point of the nonplayer core points if individual research topics/directions are implemented instead of gradual overall progress) The Player cannot directly choose which Systems will be upgraded to which level. Instead he can give a Research Direction, like improve Shields or improve Weapons. If all Tech Directions are on a similiar Level this will advance with 90% probability, if its behind this increases, and if the resarch on this topic is really far ahead compared to the other Systems another system is more likely to be upgared. If the Player does not give a direction the probability for each tech type/system to advance is related to how much ahead/behind it is to other systems. This also avoids "constantly" giving a new Research Direction. And you can be sure that when you choose Shields as your Research Prioriy your Shields will be always the best available if you constantly put enough ressources into it - and the other Systems are also not completely left behind


Further Notes:
=> As described above the Tech Tree is not really presentable to the Player and also is not intended as such. Instead the Object Info should contain Info on how old an Ship is, when it was last Upgraded and how far this Upgrade has gone (to Hi-tech or maybe just catching up to the current requirements) and the Info on Research is abstracted into how far ahead/behind the Galactic average a faction is. because thats the relevant part.

=> i used the term ship here extensively, but most of this also applies to stations, with the difference that they are upgraded by their own crew in place

=> also the Research might be internally done in steps, but its nothing which is noticeable in regular gameplay, for example a tech level progress for Shields gives them 5% more capacity (and regen), and a tech level for weapons increases their DPS by 5%. This is barely noticeable for 1 or 2 Tech levels difference, if at all, but if the difference is 10 or more tech levels the older ones are easily outclassed (60% more DPS and Shields for the newer ones at that point).


PS This are just my personal thoughts/ideas about this Topic, nothing more.

[Morkonan]

Indeed - or you can use a trowel or a belt-sander or whatever's appropriate

"Hmmm, this graph looks too spikey... We really don't want to emphasize this."

"Make the x-axis longer or y-axis shorter."

"BRILLIANT!"

"I know."

<Belt-sander sounds>

I don't know quite what you mean here, but I suspect it's interesting, so if you feel up to enlightening me (either here or via PM if you prefer not to derail the thread more than I already have), I'd be much obliged.

It's a combo, tying into the Moore's Law comment made earlier, but applicable to the idea of "exponential" progress. It's a reference to Kurzweil's idea of a logarithmic progression of critical advances, which will only be accelerated more by Artificial Intelligence as we approach the https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Technological_singularity . (I think I first read about that in "The Singularity is Near", but it could have been in another author's book, not sure. But, this logarithmic progression idea that is applicable, here, is his, regardless of where I first read about it.)

...I expect something similar, unless given (official) reason to anticipate otherwise - basically, something that is fundamentally not totally different from the Experimental JumpDrive in Rebirth, but perhaps a little more elaborate. Or the "first new gate in centuries" of X3TC.

Exactly so. I think it'll have a spin on it, but it will be functionally the same in the sort of gameplay we should expect. Whatever is needed could even be "Research Points" produced by "Laboratories", but it'll really not be any different than making boatloads of microchips.

I couldn't agree more - the whole "level/tier/mark 1", 2, 3, etc. is very... well, it's lazy, for one thing, yes? It sounds perfunctory. I quite enjoy how in Sins of a Solar Empire you functionally get such tiers, but they all have names (well, they are named in pairs, to be precise), and much like in your example, the names are descriptive, suggestive of the mechanism whereby the enhancement is being achieved.

Exactly! The research in that game is/was outstanding. It's not just how achievements are defined, it's how they truly effect and affect gameplay. You may not ever have access to certain tech, like shields, or if you ever do, it might only go so far or not appear until very late. You may have to base your designs on rail gun techs, because your laser tech is terrible. Every faction's primary techs demand a certain sort of playstyle. For the different gameplay choices you have, each will be defined based on the tech available balanced with your race's particular strengths and weaknesses, which can't be overcome by "research."

In a great many 4x-style games, any deficiencies you have can usually be overcome, all you have to do is "throw money at it." Either you research your way out of a technological hole or you buy your way out. In SotS, there are some things you can't do that with. Tough, you'll just have to learn how to do without or learn to live with. Luckily, SotS has enough different routes to viability that this isn't a problem. Instead, it's a wonderful opportunity to play a slightly different sort of game, every time you play, making most playthroughs pretty unique.

So, in gameplay terms, and "on topic", any "research-like" activity in a game needs to be meaningful. It can't just be "you get better doing things over time." If that's the case, then one may as well not even have anything called "research" to bother with at all.

Everyone knows when a game's tech tree and research has limited uses. It's the "follow this research route in order to win the game" sort of problem. Of course, that's not going to be the issue with X4, as we've likely already prognosticated what "research" will likely be. But, in the future, or if Egosoft ever decides to branch out its IP into a 4X game... Well, at least they now have a decent idea of what demanding players would expect.

(A 4X game in the X-games setting would be pretty neat. It'd be a nice way for them to go deeper into establishing a good base of lore for their franchise to build from. X3TC always had some feelings of a 4XRTS sort of game, for me. I'd like to see it hybridized into sort of 4X hybrid that Sins of a Solar Empire became or, perhaps, something like SotS was in its first incarnation. Both are outstanding designs.)

[Morkonan]

That was possibly Sword of the Stars. Awesome game.

A very awesome game! (SotS II doesn't exist... :/)

It's so awesome, I thing I'll be playing it later, just because I've been reminded how awesome it is, today.

... What's I'd prefer is different items that have different characteristics, as we had with weapons in X3 - do you want something slower firing that does lots of damage, or the fast firing pea shooter? Improvement should be through different models of item, with slightly different advantages and disadvantages. The idea that you just get "better things" should be left to the kiddies who are only interested in being better than everyone else "for teh win".

Exactly. Tech "research" needs to be meaningful. It needs to have a palpable result on gameplay and the tools the player has. That's really what it is, after all.

"Research" isn't... research. On it's face, "research" is about a player devoting game resources towards a goal to obtain new game mechanics to use in playing the game.

When viewed properly, like that, we can see what research mechanics really need to do. Yes, there can be "fluff" or certain things that are necessary, but don't really provide "new mechanics" themselves. For instance, as a 4x game progresses, one usually needs additional ways to increase the size of one's colonies. So, some fluff, bookkeeping, research is necessary to "improve crop yields" or "develop new terrain to be habitable."

The true game-mechanic inducing tech that provides the player with new ways to play the game or new tools to use in gameplay is what the gamer really wants. Like you stated, research feels more rewarding when you can decide what sorts of tools you want to use, like further-farthering guns that might be slightly weaker than others or short-range, powerful guns, that lose their accuracy over long distances.

You can work with that sort of research advance. You can plan for it and how it will impact your choices and the tools you will use. In that sort of research tree, you're not just developing Laserx10, which you'll just end up slapping on all your ships, without any changes to how you use them or how they're constructed. That's.. boring and a waste of development time. Sure, some games get along just fine, because they've got tools and game mechanics the player can fiddle with in other parts of the game. But, if that's the case, then why have tech research at all?

I'm like you in that I appreciate "research" being for something I can actually feel has an impact on my gameplay and the tools I can use while playing. I want to be able to integrate research into my playstyle and I want it to have an impact on how I play the game, not just fluff going on in the backgroun that doesn't change the tools I have access to.

Yeah, lurching a bit off-topic, but it's a really interesting game-design concept that can truly make or break a game. For already good games, it can propel them into the realm of the fantastic, like SotS. Or, it can cause them to plummet into the depths of the mundane, like too many titles to count.

[RAVEN.myst]

The true game-mechanic inducing tech that provides the player with new ways to play the game or new tools to use in gameplay is what the gamer really wants. Like you stated, research feels more rewarding when you can decide what sorts of tools you want to use, like further-farthering guns that might be slightly weaker than others or short-range, powerful guns, that lose their accuracy over long distances.

In SotS, there are some things you can't do that with. Tough, you'll just have to learn how to do without or learn to live with. Luckily, SotS has enough different routes to viability that this isn't a problem. Instead, it's a wonderful opportunity to play a slightly different sort of game, every time you play, making most playthroughs pretty unique.

This is a paradigm that I favour greatly - with difficult (at times agonizingly so) choices to be made, sometimes even mutually exclusive choices. Players who like to end up having/being able to do *everything* dislike this, but role-play invested players are already inured to the downsides/restrictiveness and used to making tough choices and getting the most out of them. Also, I don't see why not both camps couldn't be satisfied to some extent: choosing to pursue a particular path might make its alternative unavailable, but need not be so forever - upon sufficient overall advancement, and/or contingent on specific technologies, one may be able to transcend those limitations, and then be able to learn contradictory technologies, too. In this fashion, a player who had "maxed out" his/her chosen path, could now go back and enjoy the earlier phases of development of alternative paths, on his/her way to becoming a technological polymath. This way, even though ultimately one can perhaps still achieve apotheosis, individual playthroughs can be unique along the way (for me, it's all about the journey, not the destination - in any game, once I reach a certain degree of "uberness", I quit and restart or quit and go do/play something else.)

...I thing I'll be playing [SotS] later, just because I've been reminded...

I've in fact been playing some SoaSE for a couple of days, in part similarly motivated (and in part simply for a change of scenery - while remaining "spaced out" )

It's a combo, tying into the Moore's Law comment made earlier, but applicable to the idea of "exponential" progress. It's a reference to Kurzweil's idea of a logarithmic progression of critical advances, which will only be accelerated more by Artificial Intelligence as we approach the https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Technological_singularity . (I think I first read about that in "The Singularity is Near", but it could have been in another author's book, not sure. But, this logarithmic progression idea that is applicable, here, is his, regardless of where I first read about it.)

Ah, right, in the context of the technological singularity concept (one I have held with for a while - I first came across it in a TV documentary about it, back before I stopped watching TV - hell's bells, that WAS a while ago!) I now understand what you meant there. Thanks

[ezra-r]

I'd like to have a research to acquire goals.

For instance, do something specific to get a blueprint of... reinforced metal plating, it is scarce, but if you get a hold of a blueprint (which is not supposed to be easy), you can get to manufacture minimum quantities of it with time and be self-sufficient in that sense until the typical factories get to build enough, something that gives you a small edge.

* Or to acquire improvements for X ship, or for better Manuvering in this Y capital ship.
* Or to make this other station manufacture a small % more items in each batch at the cost of a certain plus amount of x ingredient.
* Or to be able to manufacture Z station that is of pirate/xenon/origin which gives X benefits or allows you to do this which was not possible.

Research, if well implemented can be a great joy for a space game like this. I just hope it is not just used as a marketting word to say "you can get this device".

[RainerPrem]

I'd like to have a research to acquire goals.

For instance, do something specific to get a blueprint of... reinforced metal plating, it is scarce, but if you get a hold of a blueprint (which is not supposed to be easy), you can get to manufacture minimum quantities of it with time and be self-sufficient in that sense until the typical factories get to build enough, something that gives you a small edge.

* Or to acquire improvements for X ship, or for better Manuvering in this Y capital ship.
* Or to make this other station manufacture a small % more items in each batch at the cost of a certain plus amount of x ingredient.
* Or to be able to manufacture Z station that is of pirate/xenon/origin which gives X benefits or allows you to do this which was not possible.

Research, if well implemented can be a great joy for a space game like this. I just hope it is not just used as a marketting word to say "you can get this device".

Hi,

Note: "doing something special to obtain a blueprint" is not called "research", but "espionage".

Not that I'd reject that alternative

cu
Rainer

[RAVEN.myst]

Note: "doing something special to obtain a blueprint" is not called "research", but "espionage".

On that note, these days "research" all too often (particularly in the context of "Internet research") actually means "thinly veiled plagiarism"...

[ezra-r]

Note: "doing something special to obtain a blueprint" is not called "research", but "espionage".

Not that I'd reject that alternative

cu
Rainer

Yes, I probably didn't express myself very well when I said something "specific" to obtain a blueprint.

The point in any case is keep the player entertained to do something in his/her own interest, keep the thing going and the options open.

Doing something specific could mean, do a mission for a friendly faction, hack the info from a pirate base, do a series of errands for certain faction in exchange for info and finally use lab or whatever to research blueprint of X, then that X is any of the above options and more, imagination is the limit.

@Killjaeden

It doesn't have to end in "player has something nobody else has" but rather. Player, through her effords has managed to get X argon military module, or Y pirate modified factory section. The tech is there, the player needs to manage to get access to the best of it depending on the player needs.

[Vandragorax]

I am not a fan of the research thing either.[...]
It is like an overused trope in scifi games. You are the player, and because you are the player you get all the prototypes and every super-scientist-genius (who in 90% is always alone and independant of every faction, broke on cash and without any help) somehow needs your help in completing research on never seen before technology.

It just crashes the suspension of disbelief wall at this point for me, because pretty much every scifi game seems to have it.

Erm, I don't see it as crashing the suspension of disbelief at all. There are myriad ways they could approach this and have it perfectly believeable and workable in the game-world.

e.g. "You explore uncharted deep-space and find alien artifacts nobody has ever seen before. You take them back to your HQ and hire a dedicated, very well paid (read: expensive), R&D team to analyse it and they come up with the technology breakthrough. You choose to use this yourself to further your empire across the galaxy instead of sharing it with every species in existence and thus your empire gains a new tool in its growth and expansion."

See it wasn't that hard to come up with a convincing story-driven way to find this technology, it isn't going to just materialise out of thin air I hope lol

Oh and finally, I disagree with whoever was posting saying it's interesting to have "shields mk2", "shields mk3" etc. as upgrades through research. This sort of thing is very boring in a game, like having "+5% shield strength" or "+10% laser power" it's just a boring power-creep that does nothing interesting. Real interesting technologies like Teleportation, which add a new dynamic to your interaction with the game, your fleets, and your empire are interesting

[UniTrader]

Oh and finally, I disagree with whoever was posting saying it's interesting to have "shields mk2", "shields mk3" etc. as upgrades through research. This sort of thing is very boring in a game, like having "+5% shield strength" or "+10% laser power" it's just a boring power-creep that does nothing interesting. Real interesting technologies like Teleportation, which add a new dynamic to your interaction with the game, your fleets, and your empire are interesting

the problem with that is that the interesting new stuff is inevitably exhausted at some point. or can you come up with enough unique Ideas to fill a total gameplay time of lets say 100 hours? (which is not that much in X).

also when i described my approach (which you obviously refer to) i also said that tech levels are just used internally for the game to keep track of the progress, its not something directly exposed to the player. He will only see Infos like "Target Ship has the most modern tech available and was Upgraded just a few hors ago" versus "Target Ship uses outdated Tech and was never upgraded in any way". Both Infos can refer to the same Ship Class, and the capabilities of both are vastly diffrent.


Regarding your Idea: X is not an Text Adventure. (well, at least its not intended as such), so a bit more than just two sentences is needed to turn this into a really useable idea in my opinion. You have stopped before even starting with the real task...
Or would you be satisfied if you fly through empty space and at some point randomly get the message you posted written into your Logbook, a few millions from your account Vanish and you suddenly have SpacePizza in your Inventory?

[Crimsonraziel]

To boil it down:

interesting technologies [...] are interesting

All in all I'm with you, everything is fine.

[JSDD]

Oh and finally, I disagree with whoever was posting saying it's interesting to have "shields mk2", "shields mk3" etc. as upgrades through research. This sort of thing is very boring in a game, like having "+5% shield strength" or "+10% laser power" it's just a boring power-creep that does nothing interesting. Real interesting technologies like Teleportation, which add a new dynamic to your interaction with the game, your fleets, and your empire are interesting

the problem with that is that the interesting new stuff is inevitably exhausted at some point. or can you come up with enough unique Ideas to fill a total gameplay time of lets say 100 hours? (which is not that much in X).

since unitrader's idea is very similar to my idea of R&D, i dont think its "boring" or so ... what it does is it keeps all the details dynamic. consider the 2nd step: npc R&D: your enemies do also R&D, neutral races too. your enemies could be very interested in "breaching" a certain threshhold, which gives all the laser weapons 20% heavier "impulse" or so (some hidden things within the R&D scripts allow little "jumps" in increaces of %ages at some point for ome features). now you enemy (xenon) has stronger weapons, what whould you do ? ... maybe R&D investments in shield technologies, "hull armour" that "filters" a certain "impulse" out of impacting bullets, whatever ... the key it to keep things NOT STATIC, but let each game item have its own details ... reseach stations can improve these details.

it isnt necessarily a "reseach tree" which at some point is ends wich new features. this type of R&D never really ends, it keeps improving the details (% values of items for example), if someone does the research ... teladi might be interested in best shield tech + armour tech, split might seek the strongest weapons, boron dont exist (:D), argon have a more balanced approach but mave other priorities, like radar / scanner range / intensity / camouflage hull materials %age / etc ...

this priorities can be well reflected in a script which handles all the npc R&D stuff. balancing stuff goes on while playing the game, and lies to a certain amount in your own hands (regarding your ships / stuff, the npc does its own thing)

by the way: xenon should definitely have their own economy, terraformer-"style" say ... harvesting water / minerals from roids, collecting them, processing them to metal / hull material, which is used as 1 of few resources in shipyards (which operate without personal, but fully-automated ... )

[koyuka]

I liked the idea of killjaedan's first post on this topic. I think research would provide great end game goals to work towards and it would provide decision making as to invest heavily in research to perhaps improve cargo capacity of spped of freighters or purchase more standard freighters to meet the growing demands of a players factory complexes.

Something like patrician 3 (only game I can think of) where there are AI players who develop there own factories and research and invest in certain areas of the economy themselves would be very interesting and they of course could also work on their own research. I think the best implementation of this might be that each corporation was a 'player' rather than each race.

Also I would love to see a trading dock for planets, no walking on planets or anything silly like that, just purely a base which represents the planet and the massive consumption of wares that must take place on them planets as well as production. It ruins the immersion for me that the space stations are the only production creators/consumers in the game, completely crazy when you think about it.

There's a lot of points just in this one topic and Egosoft are a small team so I think really pushing these things through expansions/large content DLC is the way to go.