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Sandalpocalypse
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Post by Sandalpocalypse » Mon, 2. Oct 17, 09:21

It depends on how sophisticated the spawning system is. Also on whether or not pirates can travel incognito.
Irrational factors are clearly at work.

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Post by ZaphodBeeblebrox » Mon, 2. Oct 17, 09:43

I thought they said that all things were built using resources from the universe.

So I don't see how spawning has any effect on the number of Xenon and Pirates. I was thinking that if the pirates want to stage an attack they would have to build the required ships in the first place.

I was also expecting that any ships that were plundered by the pirates would
contribute to the building of the pirate forces.

I can see that missions will probably be different and that the targets will still get spawned in these cases.
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Post by -Dna- » Mon, 2. Oct 17, 16:59

ZaphodBeeblebrox wrote:I can see that missions will probably be different and that the targets will still get spawned in these cases.
Not if Egosoft implements the mission as chain-missions. Using a pirate attack as an example:
  1. (Easy) Stop the pirate that are building ships. If successful stop the chain with a small reward, otherwise continue.
  2. (Medium) Defend the pirate attack. If successful stop the chain with a higher reward (because higher risk), if not continue.
  3. (Hard) Kill the pirate lord. Very high reward, since this guys has got many kills on its head, but also very dangerous.
In this process there is no spawning. If you apply this to the whole universe - since the player cannot be everywhere - you will have regions that have many Medium and Hard missions. At the same time, Hard mission will disappear when the security forces kill the pirate lord.

This is how I will implement the thing, then Egosoft could simple just spawn a fleet of mad pirates every hour just for fun :P
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Post by Killjaeden » Mon, 2. Oct 17, 19:17

ZaphodBeeblebrox wrote:I thought they said that all things were built using resources from the universe.
They haven't said that everything will be exclusively built from ressources. They mentioned that it might be necessary to spawn in stuff at times. Especially in context as a safety net to not allow some race to get obliterated totally (undecided) or ruined economically. I can also see them using spawning for spicing things up in missions.
Especially when it comes to plots and stuff they will most certainly require spawning/scripting in enemies.

Unless they can guarantee that everything is self-stabilising it will be necessary to provide a fallback method. An artificial eco system can quickly spiral out of controll if not very well balanced and designed.

X3 universe was anything but well balanced. Large sections of the universe died out eventually unless the player intervened. If they would have relied on ressource based spawning there, the universe would become empty in large sector clusters. The Terran Space in X3TC was notorious for declining economy.
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Post by 26072013 » Mon, 2. Oct 17, 22:20

Thanks for doing the stream. I believe it would be a great idea to do more of them every month or two.

Also: the game looks really good so far. Station building looks great. Multiple selections and the filter options in the map are exactly what I missed from the previous titles. I hope for more "fleet options" like automatical outfitting of fleets with technologies and equipment.

Really looking forward to more development news and videos of X4 now. :)

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Post by Greenhorn » Mon, 2. Oct 17, 23:42

Hi im just thinking people, in x3 I use the jumpdrive not just to explore ,but more importantly nobody mentiond it ; to escape from battle/ trouble coming my way/,no way to out-run the oppents too many drone/fighters hitting my shields knowing I wont survive for long.hmmm, having no jumpdrive in x4, makes me a little jitters..Anyway I liked the steam,hope thers another steam in the coming months, very interested in this new game.told my friend about this upcoming game for 2018.bye all.
Running latest Steam X3: Albion Prelude .v 3.1 + bonus pack.favorite single music :Coldplay - Something just like this.Muse - Supermassive blackhole.Audiomachine - Sol Invictus,Cinematic.And finally, Florent Zunino - Foundation - Titles.

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Post by Crimsonraziel » Tue, 3. Oct 17, 00:32

Greenhorn wrote:Hi im just thinking people, in x3 I use the jumpdrive not just to explore ,but more importantly nobody mentiond it ; to escape from battle/ trouble coming my way/,no way to out-run the oppents too many drone/fighters hitting my shields knowing I wont survive for long.hmmm, having no jumpdrive in x4, makes me a little jitters..
Exactly. I recently wiped out an entire xenon sector (more than 60 capital ships in total, some respawns etc.) with only one ship and hit & run powered by jumpdrive.

And that is the problem.
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Post by Sandalpocalypse » Tue, 3. Oct 17, 10:01

ZaphodBeeblebrox wrote:I thought they said that all things were built using resources from the universe.

So I don't see how spawning has any effect on the number of Xenon and Pirates. I was thinking that if the pirates want to stage an attack they would have to build the required ships in the first place.

I was also expecting that any ships that were plundered by the pirates would
contribute to the building of the pirate forces.

I can see that missions will probably be different and that the targets will still get spawned in these cases.
That's their goal, but that was also their goal in X Rebirth and they abandoned it at some point. If a simulated spawn system isn't sufficient for pirates/xenon they will certainly supplement it with ghost spawns.
Irrational factors are clearly at work.

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Post by Kitty » Tue, 3. Oct 17, 20:19

Crimsonraziel wrote:
Greenhorn wrote:Hi im just thinking people, in x3 I use the jumpdrive not just to explore ,but more importantly nobody mentiond it ; to escape from battle/ trouble coming my way/,no way to out-run the oppents too many drone/fighters hitting my shields knowing I wont survive for long.hmmm, having no jumpdrive in x4, makes me a little jitters..
Exactly. I recently wiped out an entire xenon sector (more than 60 capital ships in total, some respawns etc.) with only one ship and hit & run powered by jumpdrive.

And that is the problem.
That's not a problem, that is a solution. You had a tool, you found a way to use it. That's the sandbox.

Next step could have been to have NPC use the same strategy.

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Post by ZaphodBeeblebrox » Tue, 3. Oct 17, 20:48

Destroying sector after Xenon sector in a Boreas is something I have done in the past. It was an enjoyable experience.

But just stop and think about that. A single ship able to destroy 60 other capital vessels. Mostly down to strafe and its ability in some cases to move
a capital vessel faster than its main engine.

In X4 your ship is going to have many sub-systems that can be destroyed as
a fight goes on. Turrets, engines, localised shielding... These systems will take time to be repaired. So overtime your ship will become less and less effective.

If you are going to take on a number of enemy ships then you are going to
have to bring your own fleet.

I guess this is where the strategy part comes in THINK (I need a fleet),
BUILD (construct a fleet) FIGHT (take the fleet to the enemy.)

Using the shiny new map interface to wage war.
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Post by Crimsonraziel » Tue, 3. Oct 17, 22:17

Kitty wrote:
Crimsonraziel wrote:
Greenhorn wrote:Hi im just thinking people, in x3 I use the jumpdrive not just to explore ,but more importantly nobody mentiond it ; to escape from battle/ trouble coming my way/,no way to out-run the oppents too many drone/fighters hitting my shields knowing I wont survive for long.hmmm, having no jumpdrive in x4, makes me a little jitters..
Exactly. I recently wiped out an entire xenon sector (more than 60 capital ships in total, some respawns etc.) with only one ship and hit & run powered by jumpdrive.

And that is the problem.
That's not a problem, that is a solution. You had a tool, you found a way to use it. That's the sandbox.

Next step could have been to have NPC use the same strategy.
So future battles will be decided by who brings more energy cells.
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Post by Kitty » Tue, 3. Oct 17, 22:36

Crimsonraziel wrote:
So future battles will be decided by who brings more energy cells.
So YOU think.

Jumpdrive is away, btw.

Game over.
PS: this could've been good for the solar cells market. ;)

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Post by BigBANGtheory » Tue, 3. Oct 17, 23:25

Crimsonraziel wrote: So future battles will be decided by who brings more energy cells.
No, if Egosoft have got it right and done their homework battles will be won by:
- who can economically build and support the largest fleet
- who can control their fleet the best

both points is down to ES to sort out and the player to figure out, that is the gameplay draw..... hopefully :)

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Post by -Dna- » Tue, 3. Oct 17, 23:59

BigBANGtheory wrote:
Crimsonraziel wrote: So future battles will be decided by who brings more energy cells.
No, if Egosoft have got it right and done their homework battles will be won by:
- who can economically build and support the largest fleet
- who can control their fleet the best

both points is down to ES to sort out and the player to figure out, that is the gameplay draw..... hopefully :)
I Hope that the doom-stacks from Stellaris do not invade the X-Universe :lol:
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Post by Crimsonraziel » Wed, 4. Oct 17, 00:19

BigBANGtheory wrote:
Crimsonraziel wrote: So future battles will be decided by who brings more energy cells.
No, if Egosoft have got it right and done their homework battles will be won by:
- who can economically build and support the largest fleet
- who can control their fleet the best

both points is down to ES to sort out and the player to figure out, that is the gameplay draw..... hopefully :)
Which is the AI, if we don't implement some mechanics to cripple it.
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Post by Killjaeden » Wed, 4. Oct 17, 12:54

Crimsonraziel wrote:Which is the AI, if we don't implement some mechanics to cripple it.
Unlikely. Competent AI that deals well with "foreign influence" and other things that requires it to re-strategize and be proactive is difficult. I don't know of a strategy game where the higher difficulty levels of AI do not resort to cheating in one way or another.
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Post by Crimsonraziel » Wed, 4. Oct 17, 13:16

Killjaeden wrote:
Crimsonraziel wrote:Which is the AI, if we don't implement some mechanics to cripple it.
Unlikely. Competent AI that deals well with "foreign influence" and other things that requires it to re-strategize and be proactive is difficult. I don't know of a strategy game where the higher difficulty levels of AI do not resort to cheating in one way or another.
What makes you belief, this would be different in this case?
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Post by Sorkvild » Wed, 4. Oct 17, 15:28

Youtube classified latest X4 gameplay as Star Citizen :faceplam:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Hk4pPuC3GjA
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Post by Alan Phipps » Wed, 4. Oct 17, 16:06

So SC fans browsing YouTube get to see X4 stuff and vice versa; win-win.
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Post by Kitty » Wed, 4. Oct 17, 20:56

Killjaeden wrote:
Crimsonraziel wrote:Which is the AI, if we don't implement some mechanics to cripple it.
Unlikely. Competent AI that deals well with "foreign influence" and other things that requires it to re-strategize and be proactive is difficult. I don't know of a strategy game where the higher difficulty levels of AI do not resort to cheating in one way or another.
Well, it's a matter of 2 things:
- machine power
- financial power (ie : how much you pay the game developpers)

Today, we have largely the knowledges to have very proficient AIs. If the game designers cheat it's because... it's cheaper.

So what ?

That does not change the result here. WHo wins is a matter of tuning the game balance.

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