Is having your own shipyard really a good idea?

[A5PECT]

Just a make ships cost resources and time to build, as large ships do in XR.

Want a lot of ships? Then you have to have a lot of resources and time.

Want a lot of ships quickly? Then you have to build multiple shipyards (which also cost resources and time).

[RAVEN.myst]

Basically, it should be an "end game" feature.

I'm not convinced this is necessarily true - arbitrary and artificial constraints only serve to limit play styles and concepts. Why not, for example, make shipyards multi-modular (similar to how they are in Rebirth, vaguely), with different facilities costing in proportion to the scale of the service they provide. In such a scenario, it could be possible for a player to set up rudimentary production facilities for small ships, perhaps at a low time-efficiency. The player could then use ships manufactured there, and/or sell them for income (ie. manufacturing/industry just like any other - adding value to materials by processing them into more a sophisticated product.) A second such module would double effective production speed (either through parallelism, or by slaving it to the first, effectively integrating with it to upgrade it), and other efficiency modules could be added, to increase either time or resource efficiency - and such modules could be "disproportionately" expensive, maybe.

I'm for options and the facilitation of different styles of play - the only proviso I would be inclined to agree with is that no single style be excessively more "powerful" than another. And even this is not essential - we're talking about a single-player game, ie. one where competitive balancing is not an issue, so who cares if some paths are easier? Those who want an easier romp can have that, while those of us who enjoy a challenge can take harder paths - it's simply that simple.

[Memnoch]

Yes, I would like to be able to make and sell my own branded ships. It would be really cool to see NPC's flying around in your ships.

[spankahontis]

Not really, it still needs a ton of resources in order to make those ships, So you'll be pumping in allot of your money to get them built before considering making your own fleet, you have to make the money first before you blow it on a new fleet.
I can't see it doing any damage as they are a bomb to afford.

Even in X3 I had to build a ton of factories to make the weapons for the Destroyers I bought from Mars Shipyards, I simply couldn't keep up with the weapons I was selling them.

[Falcrack]

Just wondering, if we own everything in the supply chain (all the base resources plus the shipyard), and we can supply everything we need to build our own ships, will we need to pay extra costs in terms of credits?

[Brandon123s]

I'm assuming this is going to be like Unending Galaxy where you can always buy ships for credits from other empires, but your own shipyards are far more profitable (but limited by resources)

In a perfect world the competition would get the money from your purchases while using their own real resources to build and stock ships. Ship components should take a serious financial investment to begin manufacturing - buying your first few capital ships could even make sense if the strategic control of space is worthwhile.

If basic raw materials are only from asteroids and what planets supply land control can be extremely important, especially if pirates, aliens and other factions fight you for control of the resources.

[RAVEN.myst]

Just wondering, if we own everything in the supply chain (all the base resources plus the shipyard), and we can supply everything we need to build our own ships, will we need to pay extra costs in terms of credits?

I take it you refer to how annoying it is in X3 with the PHQ - everything self-supplied and yet STILL a credit fee that meant that one could never truly cut ties with all empires, at least one would still have to be friendly as a source of credits... This has always felt very limiting to me, so I would hope that this time if the player is self-sufficient enough to produce everything, then there is no longer any artificial external dependency (well, apparently staff will still be an issue - but perhaps that can be drawn from a "player claimed" settled planet, or some-such.)


[EDIT: Typocide]

[Cabrelbeuk]

Should just be ubber expensive but is part of the natural progression of the player to master X Universe.

When you got a fleet able to beat other factions, you should be able to get a shipyard like other factions.

And make the X Univers a corporation dystopia where you rules everything and anything

[PowerPC603]

I voted YES, because in every game since X3 we had some sort of shipyard already.

It's not OP because that shipyard needs ALOT of materials to produce ships.
In X4, they may simply set the material-cost the same for NPC and player shipyards, so there is no difference.

The difference is that the player will build his own ships in his own shipyard so you don't have to wait for npc ships to be built before production on your ships start.
The other way around is also true: while the npc shipyard is building your ships, npc's have to wait before their production can be started.

If the npc's need replacement ships for their defense force after they've waged war against the Xenon (this may happen during a Xenon invasion), they require their own shipyards to replenish their lost ships and don't need to wait for the player to stop producing ships.

And you may be able to set your own shipyard to player-only, so you never need to wait for npc's to finish production.

But due to the cost and required materials, it will probably be a late-game module. I don't expect players to build their own ships themselves within a few hours after starting a new game.

[BigBANGtheory]

To me it seems X Universe has been visually influenced by the last series of Battlestar Galactica so the vision of you building Scorpion Shipyard is quite appealing.

From a gameplay PoV I like the idea of building my own self sustaining economy which includes the production of ships. In particular building ships from resources not just credits. With this in mind my ability to build and sustain my own assets is limited by my ability to build a successful economy and production capability not unlike the real world in a simplified way.

By analogy USA has the largest military in the world because of its economy and manufacturing. Saudi Arabia and the Emirates have a lot of cash but need to buy in their defense capabilities, but even if they had the wealth they couldn't defeat larger countries in a military campaign.

A shipyard in many ways bridges economics to strategy/combat so I think it makes a lot of sense.

[dreamer2008]

Its a very good idea. This is what the x series has as an advantage over its main competitors, Elite Dangerous and Star Citizen, the empire building aspect. The HQ is quite essential for this empire.

[Morkonan]

On player-owned shipyards:

I think that it's a necessity for this to be in the game. It should be a late-game option, hard to attain, hard to support at first, and should have more of a supplemental or specialized role in its actual use. (For instance, it's useful for building large and medium ships, but one player-shipyard may not be able to churn out the number of fighters and small ships in one run that can be gained from an NPC shipyard.)

Late-game players need goals like this. They need more fiddly bits to build their gaming experience around. Mid-game players need this sort of goal to strive towards and, once achieved, it needs to reward their efforts. Early-game players need to see this as a far-off dream, something they will eventually strive toward, but that are practically unobtainable at an early stage of play.

Fiddly bits - A sandbox game like the X series needs them all over the place. ANY interesting, complicated but rewarding, fiddly bit that can be shoved into the game that helps the player "build" their play experience can be, and should be, a value-added inclusion.

On "balance": Given that previous examples are what we're using to judge this, a notion of "balance" in late-end-game play is moot. There's no need to discuss balance if what we've experienced in the past indicates the likely state of the game. The end-game player is, in terms of assets and capabilities, largely superior to any force in the game. Unless, and only unless, there are game mechanics hardcoded to prevent the end-game player from practically destroying their own game. (ie: Free autogenerated response fleets for the npc factions) As it stands, it appears that Egosoft is going to make end-game play more diverse, with the possibility of the player actually being able to go head-to-head against a major race faction. If that is the case, then player-owned shipyards are a definite necessity.

[Santi]

If we are coming from X Rebirth, yes, because the whole experience was a bit flawed, confusion with the S,M,L,XL vendor system, delays getting resources needed, Captains buggering out and blocking the cradles and quite a tedious system to build a single ship not to mention a whole fleet.

If the system has been streamlined for X4, then while I do not mind owing a Shipyard, I may prefer an equipment dock for upgrades and repairs fully integrated into the economy, instead of the current fixing for free dependant of engineer level. Something to consider as it is an "easy way" to expand on the tactical gameplay without messing with complicated AI systems, as it works from an economic level that suits more a sandbox gameplay.

[antoniut]

Yes, and the visual style of the shipyard station module could be something like a massive 3D printer instead of the actual look from XR, with those naval sounds. Who knows, what will the future hold?

[Skeeter]

My view, which is not really that of the OP as that way looking at getting replies for and against a shippyard. Anyhow. If balanced right a shipyard could be nice for the player but i do wonder how it will be done (not played x3 or above very much btw) as ive just played mainly long plays in x games up to x2.

If shipyards are very expensive to build then good as it should be, to run them should require a fleet to get materials for each ship and have long build cycles tho this can vary depending on ship. You should need to aquire blueprints to be able to build ships. Basic ones might not need em who knows but for big shipss and the best small ships are a must i think. Could be good to earn them through the plot for end game plot arc maybe?

I do worry how it could be exploited. I know its a sp game but i always hate the thought of ppl cheating in these games i dunno why it just does. I mean id hate to think egosoft would let modders be able to let a player start with a billion credits or lets say hack a shipyard to require 0 resources and adjust build times so a ship is made for free every 2 mins. lol. I mean id hate to see braqgers saying they have this and that and really they cheated instead of playing vanilla game. Its just me tho, i shouldnt care really. Just kinda hope egosoft hardcodes the shipyard to be tamper proof lol.

Dunno if ill bother the empire side of the game but if i do im not sure if id bother or not with a player owned sy, depends if its worth building myself ships or just buying them or stealing them as could be quicker. If the shipyard had unique ways to make the ships it builds more personal like skins or paint jobs or configurations like instead of say a cap ship with just lasers and a few torp turrets id make it a full on torpedo boat. But i have a feeling a sy will just build a default ship and u can only customise it after its made by going in the ship and buy all the parts and change it urself.

Ability to have a selection of skins to choose from or patterns would make making ur own fleet in ships of ur style visually would be rather cool. Kinda like car games where u can pick the paint, and logos and all sorts of things, if that was part of making ur own ships then cool.

[birdtable]

I do not think the single player should give a second thought to cheats or mods, play your own game... options are vital to play ..e.g SETA ..I never need or use it but for those that do it is a good option....The really only way in my opinion that the Shipyard can be OP is if Ego allow every ship you manufacture to have an instant ready market and be automatically sold....
Sure do hope I will be able to paint my wagons in nice bright primary colours with maybe a hint of battleships grey for the more menacing ones....

[RAVEN.myst]

The really only way in my opinion that the Shipyard can be OP is if Ego allow every ship you manufacture to have an instant ready market and be automatically sold....

I agree. I would like it if ships could only be sold based on demand. This implies that in the unlikely event of a serious shortage, a player might even be able to sell a ship for more than its book value. When the market is saturated, though, the player would then need to strip a ship for parts or resources for a low-value sale (only really applicable to captured ships - I don't see anyone building a ship, then breaking it down to sell it for a fraction of its value) - of course, this would require some sort of chop-shop functionality, and ideally to be available (as NPC-run facility) a lot sooner than player shipyard or HQ becomes available.

Sure do hope I will be able to paint my wagons in nice bright primary colours with maybe a hint of battleships grey for the more menacing ones....

A couple of days back I read the Q&As, and saw "logos yes, paintjobs no", unfortunately - but perhaps the term "paintjob" is being used to mean more than just the replacement of a particular colour (the way it is in X3 PHQ spray shop), so I'm daring to also hope.

By the way, is that the smart new military grey, or the dowdy old ocean grey?

[Raize]

As long as it follows the same mechanics of the NPC shipyard it's fine by me.

[Nanook]

...
By the way, is that the smart new military grey, or the dowdy old ocean grey?

Gray should be out and black should be in. We're in space and space is black. We're not on a gray ocean with a gray sky.

[RAVEN.myst]

...
By the way, is that the smart new military grey, or the dowdy old ocean grey?

Gray should be out and black should be in. We're in space and space is black. We're not on a gray ocean with a gray sky.

I agree (and not just on camouflage grounds, but because black looks so much better - it's the new black, after all), but tell that to Rimmer...