Teleportation

[gbjbaanb]

Considering this thread about teleport, a lot of people have said that they find it a bit daft and that remote piloting would be better, but what do you think.

This is a fundamental way the game will be played in the end so I think its quite important to get some discussion figured out.

[Alan Phipps]

Also there is very active and lengthy discussion about jumpdrives in X4 in the Twitch Feedback thread starting here and continuing to date. It includes detailed comments from a dev on the decision to remove the JD in X4 (since JD is one of the poll options here).

[PabloRSA]

As that thread is about the 2nd stream what has a lot of information about teleport and other topics, i wouldnt consider that thread to be the place to discuss as this thread is more relevent.

With that in mind...
I have the perfect solution.....

New Game >
Game Settings
Jumpdrive Allowed - Enabled | DISABLED
Teleporter Allowed - ENABLED | Disabled


ETC......... Let us choose what we want, just add the mechanics.

[gbjbaanb]

Also there is very active and lengthy discussion about jumpdrives in X4 in the Twitch Feedback thread starting here and continuing to date. It includes detailed comments from a dev on the decision to remove the JD in X4 (since JD is one of the poll options here).

That thread was full of other topics, and I thought that, as the topic is quite important wrt gameplay, it deserved its own thread. Still, the poll is interesting all by itself.

[Alan Phipps]

@ PabloRSA: 'Make it an option' is pretty much a far-from-perfect solution from a devs' perspective:

The "make it optional" mantra is one of the most enduring myths of game design, and it is fundamentally flawed in more than one way.

First of all, making things optional is categorically not a simple solution. The developer has to create both versions of whatever feature it is, test and maintain both versions, and also make sure that all aspects of the game are both usable and entertaining with both versions. Worse still, every time you add another optional element, you don't just add to the workload, you multiply the number of different combinations that need to be catered for. For certain simple things, like whether some information is displayed or not, it can of course make sense to make them optional, but for core gameplay features like how ships fly in the universe it creates massively more work than choosing one model and sticking to it.

The second flaw is that if you make everything optional, you are not creating a game, you are creating a toolbox. Note that a toolbox and a sandbox are not the same thing; you can make a game that provides the latter without also needing to make it the former. While some players may be happy to tweak and experiment with a toolbox, most will just go with the default settings the developer provides, because they, quite reasonably, expect the game designers to have picked the model that best fits the game as a whole. As a result, if you do make it optional, then you are doing all that expensive and time-consuming extra work just for the tiny minority of players who like to tinker with their games; that's time and money that could otherwise have been spent on creating real gameplay features that would benefit everyone.

@ gbjbaanb: I am happy for the poll discussion to continue here; I was just pointing out that one of the poll options had been discussed at length and a dev had given reasons for its exclusion from X4.

[Ezarkal]

As that thread is about the 2nd stream what has a lot of information about teleport and other topics, i wouldnt consider that thread to be the place to discuss as this thread is more relevent.

With that in mind...
I have the perfect solution.....

New Game >
Game Settings
Jumpdrive Allowed - Enabled | DISABLED
Teleporter Allowed - ENABLED | Disabled


ETC......... Let us choose what we want, just add the mechanics.

I once thought that way, too. I changed my mind since then, however. The problem is, options take time to implement, debug and balance. Basically, you have to develop both features instead of just one. It's time that won't be spent elsewhere.

I'd rather ES focus on the solution they chose for now, do it well, then spend their time on other features. If teleportation is so badly wanted, it will be brought in by modders, or in a subsequent patch.

From my end, as long as we have one way to get around quickly, I'll get used to it.

[adeine]

As that thread is about the 2nd stream what has a lot of information about teleport and other topics, i wouldnt consider that thread to be the place to discuss as this thread is more relevent.

With that in mind...
I have the perfect solution.....

New Game >
Game Settings
Jumpdrive Allowed - Enabled | DISABLED
Teleporter Allowed - ENABLED | Disabled


ETC......... Let us choose what we want, just add the mechanics.

I once thought that way, too. I changed my mind since then, however. The problem is, options take time to implement, debug and balance. Basically, you have to develop both features instead of just one. It's time that won't be spent elsewhere.

I'd rather ES focus on the solution they chose for now, do it well, then spend their time on other features. If teleportation is so badly wanted, it will be brought in by modders, or in a subsequent patch.

From my end, as long as we have one way to get around quickly, I'll get used to it.

Not to mention, the game is (or should be) balanced around the options available. If you're expected to use a jump drive because it's impractical not to, turning off the option does just that: make the game impractical to play. If you balance the game in such a way that you don't need a jump drive, enabling it is either a gimmick, or a cheat that breaks the game.

[mr.WHO]

Jesus - it's not like they will give you teleported right from the beginning and Egosoft already mention you will have to "research" to extend the teleportation range.

To me, at least until we will see the final product, this is very good OPTION.
No one force you to use it if you don't like it.

[-Dna-]

Jesus - it's not like they will give you teleported right from the beginning and Egosoft already mention you will have to "research" to extend the teleportation range.

To me, at least until we will see the final product, this is very good OPTION.
No one force you to use it if you don't like it.

But they are forcing us to not use the Jumpdrive because it will not be available

[RAVEN.myst]

Jesus - it's not like they will give you teleported right from the beginning and Egosoft already mention you will have to "research" to extend the teleportation range.

To me, at least until we will see the final product, this is very good OPTION.
No one force you to use it if you don't like it.

But they are forcing us to not use the Jumpdrive because it will not be available

That's what saddens me. From my perspective, I'm being "offered" a tool I won't want to use, while taking away the tool I do want - that's a lose-lose...

[Greenhorn]

Hi everyone, just thinking in x3 ,I used both teleportation and jumpdrive ,both have there uses,i use the jumpdrive to get out of dangereious situations,not just to explore,and for teleportation to swith to different ships quicky, instead of ejecting from one ship to another ,hmmm,i really just want both.Let the player decide( think ),so you don't feel limited, just my 2 cents.bye all.

[PabloRSA]

I see your point, to a degree.
Its an extension to the ship which runs a sinlge script to jump.

Suppose we could settle for TP now and it will be in the DLC for JD.
We can all guess how its going to work etc.. but i suppose until we see it or use it we may need to stop talking about it.

I vote the next stream show the teleport feature and more information on how long RL time it will take to get.

I also assume modders could write a single script to do the job after release.

Also in my mind the options are to be set at the start of the game which can not be changed afterwords, so no toggleing to cheat, just a easy, medium, hard difficulty type settings.

[monster.zero]

I voted teleportation.

I don't want remote control...it cheats death...I want to be standing on the deck or sitting in a chair when my bad decision kills me and the crew....don't want to watch/control it on T.V.

Jump drive is cool...but it should have a cool down AND you have to prepare for the jump by entering a special hyperbolic chamber....It would work like this: Set the controls for the jump, leave your seat, walk to the back of the ship(better shielding in the back)climb into a special sleep/chamber/pod(like the movie 'Supernova')....once secure in the jump chamber...press the execute button...once you arrive you have to exit the chamber and walk back to the pilots seat.

[ZaphodBeeblebrox]

I like to play the game as Egosoft intended.

I always play vanilla as a first play through.

Then I make my own mind up over what I like and dislike.

So I voted teleportation. Let's see how that works out and whether it's a really "cool" feature after all.

[Kitty]

New Game >
Game Settings
Jumpdrive Allowed - Enabled | DISABLED
Teleporter Allowed - ENABLED | Disabled

Well, I think that things may or may not be optionnal depending on how they interfere on game dev. This option here is heavy.
I mean, I can imagine how to implement the teleporter option... it would definitely be usefull for the player, and the AI would definitely not care, especially since you probably cannot teleport wares (which is a big hole in the world consistency, I'm curious about the justification, but necessary since if you can teleport wares, you don't need cargo ships).
Once this is done, the Jumpdrive is much more heavy to implement, as
- AI has to use it (you move ships, not only the pilot's name)
- You have to find ways to let the player choose destination, which is not obvious in X4 larger setting
- You have to think about impact on economy and wars (again, you move ships, not only a pilot name)
etc.

Yes, Teleporter is a lazy solution.
Yes, Teleporter is a cheat.
So, let's be honnest: If Egosoft had a solution with Jumpdrive, Teleporter would be a useless workaround, so making it optionnal is not an option.

Let's be crude, also. Law of the market. If the game is enjoyable, we'll play it and tell everybody it's fun, they can buy and play. If not, Egosoft will lose monney. It's their bet.

Egosoft choisit. Nous disposons.

No need for much more discussion.
PS: we can still play X3 !

[RAVEN.myst]

... you probably cannot teleport wares (which is a big hole in the world consistency, I'm curious about the justification, but necessary since if you can teleport wares, you don't need cargo ships).

Indeed, although I'm not even all that curious, as I'm leaning more and more toward your final conclusion... ;P

Yes, Teleporter is a lazy solution.
Yes, Teleporter is a cheat.
So, let's be honnest: If Egosoft had a solution with Jumpdrive, Teleporter would be a useless workaround...

I agree. Unfortunately.

Let's be crude, also. Law of the market. If the game is enjoyable, we'll play it and tell everybody it's fun, they can buy and play. If not, Egosoft will lose monney. It's their bet.

Your "final conclusion" that I mentioned above - and they are very likely not getting any more of my money... (Unfortunately.)

PS: we can still play X3 !

Hehehehe, indeed! Actually, right now I'm playing X2 again (and once I'm done, I'll redo Reunion again, and then I'll decide whether to do Terran Conflict or go straight to Albion Prelude, which is where I'll be spending most of my gaming time again...)

EDIT: How's this for coincidence: in my X2 game, I just stopped by Terracorp for the fitting of a freebie jumpdrive (plot event), and watched the cut-scene that portrays it. Sigh...

[mr.WHO]

Oh boy, now we have a teleporter drama.

TD work almost the same as JD, but doesn't teleport the ship. This means you have to make use of you ships and that brand new RTS map for that.

If you complain that you cannot teleport entire ship, then why not to complain about teleorting entire stations, even entire zones?

Lets face it JD it too casual solution.
TD offer something similar, but not "easy mode on". With the same time it ofers you to teleport straight to where the action is without boring long travel. it makes you use THINK part of the Egosoft motto instead "push the button for JD".

It not like they can't add JD in patch like in XR if TD would be implemented badly.

So much drama...



P.S However it is interesting how do they explain that "old jumpdrives" don't work? using the "old jump drives" you should at least be able to teleport to the gates.

[RAVEN.myst]

Lets face it JD it too casual solution.
TD offer something similar, but not "easy mode on". With the same time it ofers you to teleport straight to where the action is without boring long travel. it makes you use THINK part of the Egosoft motto instead "push the button for JD".

I take it you haven't played Rebirth, then? The universe structure and the way JD works there makes the JD a LOT more restricted than "push to go anywhere", including that of a long-range teleporter. And since X4's universe hierarchy resembles Rebirth's more than it does X3's, it would be subject to similar strictures. Therefore, it is actually the teleporter that strikes me as by far the "easier mode"... *shrug*

In any case, I'm not trying to convince anyone (only convincing ES would be of any significance, would have any point to it, and I guess that's not going to happen), and likewise attempts to bring me around to liking the idea of the TP are an equal and utter waste of time - besides being a totally pointless exercise in the first place, I know my own mind.

So, back I go to my X2 game and my lore-given jumpdrive...

[mr.WHO]

I take it you haven't played Rebirth, then? The universe structure and the way JD works there makes the JD a LOT more restricted than "push to go anywhere", including that of a long-range teleporter. And since X4's universe hierarchy resembles Rebirth's more than it does X3's, it would be subject to similar strictures. Therefore, it is actually the teleporter that strikes me as by far the "easier mode"... *shrug*

I played XR and I never ran out of JD coolants. Also beign able to teleport across entire universe, while my capship could only teleport to jump beacons is waaaay OP.

If we would have kind of JD as X-Rebirth capships:
- jump only to jump beacons
- no jump between systems, yuo have to pas through the gate
- JD has cooldown time (even a bit longer than in XR)

Then I'd say it's OK to have such JD in X4 (especially that we would then avoind soemthing that sounds atrocious - Capships using highways).

However direct copy pasta of Skunk JD is big no.

[The Q]

Seeing that the X games are far away from 'hard' science fiction, I don't really see why people are so concerned about the explanation or justification of a certain feature. May I remind people of the docking computer of the X2/X3 games which instantly docks your ship to your target ship or station, when you're below 5 km. Has anyone ever quit the game enraged, because the 5 km range wasn't explained properly? Has anyone not bought X2/X3, because this is an obvious cheat? I somewhat doubt that. Although, I don't have any hard figures either.^^
Pretty much the same with the Transporter Extension of X2/X3 having a range of 5 km. Why only 5 km? Does the tech magically stops working at 5.1 km? Is there no possibility to amplify (increase power) in any way? Shouldn't bigger ships be able to transport the same wares as smaller ships over a greater distance?

I feel it's rather easy to come up with possible explanations. I also think these really do not need to be that scientifically accurate or detailed in order to provide good gameplay. After all, in many of the X games there's hardly any connection between different technologies and the majority of equipment is just explained in short description or encyclopedia texts.
The justification of the functionality of Teleportation only being able to teleport people can easily be explained with very high costs per transport. If the costs are way greater than your profit, then you obviously won't teleport your wares. And the technology provider, i.e. the company which builds and maintains these teleporters, won't build "ware teleporters" unless they can be sure that enough people are going to use it. A similar example exists already in our global market today, where you ship large quantities of wares via big freighters over the seas/oceans rather than by plane. Travel via plane is way faster than via ship. But also more expensive. So travel over large distances via plane is pretty much common for people, while the majority of wares worldwide is shipped via freighters.
Or it is a technological thing: Often in science fiction teleporters do not transfer the actual person / material directly. But just the 'information'. In Dark Matter for instance, Transfer transit pods create a clone of the person using the transit pod and synchronize their brains. The clone only lives for about 72 hours, and you don't take any wares with you, you get new ones.
Or it is legal thing: After the invention of the teleporter, big cargo companies were afraid that this technology would lead to serious job cuts. Thus, lobbyists achieved that all governments passed a law that prohibits ware transport via teleporter or adds a heavy fee/fine to it. Or the ware inventers are afraid that by teleporation their ware secrets are revealed. That means while the Cahoona burger inventers do sell machines, which automatically make Cahoona Burgers from the base ingredients, they don't want people to know the exact recipes (especially not of the soilent green sauce), which may be revelead during the reverse-engineering/scanning process of the Teleporter.
After all gameplay is the important part here, where I have to make sure that different tech and their requirements and limitations make sense in combination with each other.

As for not having the jumpdrive at all: It was said that X4 would play in a different region of the X-Universe than X Rebirth. Maybe this region neither had access to TerraCorp nor to the Terran systems, so the jumpdrive technology is lost again. Keep in mind that between Kyle Brennan stranding in the X-Universe, bringing the first experimental jumpdrive with him, and the gates shutting down, only 35 to 40 years have passed. So when the gate shutdown happened, the market saturation of the jumpdrive was probably not that great. Now, we do not know, how much time has passed between the shutdown and the reaction of the gates in these systems. (We know though, that XR plays 25 years after the events of X3AP, and X4 plays after the events of XR). But if we have a look at technology today, even a decade can be enough to make certain technology obsolete. (Thinking of Phone booths!) Add the lack of certain resources and the futility of the tech itself to it, making recycling of existing wares more likley, and you have a good reason to believe that no one will keep a jumpdrive just for the sake of having it.

As for the feature of Teleportation in general, I'm looking forward to it in X4. Actually, I feel Egosoft experiemented a long time with different ways of limiting the jumpdrive already in certain ways. Be it by limiting its use to certain ship classes or by limiting its range due to the requirement of additional energy or reputation (see jump beacons in X3AP), or by cutting off whole sectors (see TOAs in X3TC/AP).
Now taking into account what Owen said in the latest (2nd) livestream, I think there are two main problems which have to be addressed here:
1. The player being able to be everywhere at the same time.
2. The player being able to bring their assets with them or send them anywhere.

By limiting the jumpdrive in any of the previous ways both problems have always been addressed in the same way. Although you need a different approach for both. Not being able to jump everywhere is extremely important at the beginning of the game for exploration purposes. But can become quite tedious in the late game. Especially if mission offerers require to speak to the player personally, and if the player wants to take part in the action before it is over. From what we know about the teleporter, the range will be limited at the beginning of the game, and you will have to research ways of increasing it. In the late game, however, the range will be greater and with a good setup the player can teleport themself to different places more easily reducing tedious travel times.
Now to the second problem, being able to bring your assets everywhere almost instantly makes it pretty hard to pose an actual challenge to the player. Want them to fight a big armada? The player can bring their fleet. Make trade routs more insecure? The player can let their ships jump to the destination directly. And so on. Additionally, in a direct situation Player vs. AI, the player will always be able to outsmart the AI, especially with the proper setup. Now the latter won't really change with the removal of the Jumpdrive and the implementation of teleporation, but it will require more preparation and therefore more thinking. This will also apply to the setup of fleets, patrols, trade routes and so on. I feel that is a good thing.