Teleportation

[ZaphodBeeblebrox]

Seems to me that the above is a good reason to get rid of the jump drive.

To stop it being used as a get out of jail for free card.

I personally used that little Teladi ship for exploration, the really fast one.
Almost no shielding or lasers. Certainly no jump drive.

This made flying through the Xenon sectors around Getsu Fune quite a hair raising experience. Yes this is an example of speeding through a dangerous area as fast as possible, but that did not stop it from being an exhilarating experience.

Exploration is dangerous, a quick search of the internet will quickly bring up a
host of people who died on expeditions.

[RAVEN.myst]

Seems to me that the above is a good reason to get rid of the jump drive.

To stop it being used as a get out of jail for free card.

If you're responding to my previous post, then I'm afraid you've completely missed the point, which is: if you make content too dangerous in an attempt to make it more exciting, then chances are that players (obviously not all of them) will instead start avoiding this now supposedly "more exciting" content - this is totally counterproductive, as it makes content less accessible to some players, and steers play-styles in a particular direction, which is completely opposed to X's hitherto philosophy of multitudinous options ("do what you want, how you want, when you want".)

And so what if it's a "get out of jail free card"? *shrug* If that offends you, don't use it as such, it's really that simple. I certainly constantly seek ways to make my own games more challenging, more difficult (for example, I will only use assets of whichever race I'm playing at the time, or disallow myself use of certain techs/items/resources, or stipulate a particular approach such as "no personal fighting" or "nothing BUT personal fighting" or "no buying, only capturing") - but at MY OWN discretion, not anyone else's. Also, I don't begrudge other people their exploits/shortcuts - if that's how they enjoy playing, what makes them happy, then good for them that they are able to. That's key. It's a non-competitive single-player game franchise that is famous for having numerous "exploits" (orphan missile, endless nividium mining, stock exchange, etc.) - it's up to the player to use or not use whatever they want, it is not for the developers (or anyone else, for that matter) to dictate those choices by making them for us - at least, not if they want to sell as many units as possible. The more the developers prescribe how their games are "meant" to be played, the more I look elsewhere - and EgoSoft have shot themselves in the foot with their decision to remove the iconic JD as far as I'm concerned (that's not the only factor, but it is the proverbial last straw, or final nail in the coffin, as far as I'm concerned.)

Obviously, in a competitive/adversarial game it's a very different story: balance HAS to be achieved and maintained (often by restrictions of some sort) so that some players don't get unfair advantages over others, and so that none are forced to adopt a particular metagame to the exclusion of all others simply in order to survive or thrive. But in an isolated gaming experience, who cares? In a solitary environment, taking away options achieves only precisely that: depriving the player of choices.

[I'll keep watching from time to time, in the hopes that Egg'o'soft reverse their decision - I'd really like a new X game, after all, but to me a game is not an X game without certain elements in it, such as all the classic races, the JD, iconic systems and other locations, weapons, ship classes, etc. So far, X4 has veered off too many of those tracks for my tastes, and keeps adding more and more iconic elements to discard...]

[astreus]

Remote would be fine if it covers all the actions which should be possible, taking the game technology into concept.

It is very annoying, if you need to fly to every zone, to the other end of the galaxy, by yourself (player ship) just to do simple missions, collect ....stuff ....

But if you have to, then a jump drive is on demand, requested, which, of course, turn the 'highway' concept preposterous...

This for ships.

I really see no reason to 'jump' teleport just the player. This would also spoil any travel concepts / engines.

[Vandragorax]

Just because jumpdrives were in previous X games doesn't mean it's absolutely 100% mandatory, or do you also want Rebirth's awfully broken jump refuelling mechanics back too, because they were "in a previous game"? (remember those huge queues at the jump fuel stations?)

Along with this, the argument of "well I always use the jump drive therefore I need it in X4" doesn't make any sense either. The only reason you use it is because it's there and you feel silly not using it, and by using it you then fall into the trap of making the universe feel absolutely tiny and not space-like because you can literally take a huge fleet to any location instantly. This absolutely DOES trivialise several aspects of the game.

Removing jump drives gives Egosoft more opportunity to actually make the clusters tactically interesting; placement of gates, stations and other assets will now actually be important instead of just a random scattering making no real difference. It also means as a player you need to think about how to move your fleets around, and outlying clusters/zones will be harder to reinforce as travel time will actually now be a resource to manage when it comes to war.

There are many reasons for removing jumpdrives, but the reasons for keeping it are simply personal preference - at least from all the reasons given by people so far that I've read.

[birdtable]

Once again .. I ask ..Are there different versions of X Rebirth in existence ?
because BlackDemon clearly stated " you can literally take a huge fleet to any location instantly" .... what version of X Rebirth does this occur in .. ? Have I missed an update ... ?
So we don't have jumpdrives because the refuelling process was inefficient.

Why does exploration keep being mentioned ... Jumpdrives never aided exploration ... true they could help you escape from dangerous circumstances when exploring but so can teleportation or even fast little Teladi ships

AND the big question ...Why were Jumpdrives finally introduced to Rebirth if their omission was so beneficial to gameplay.?

[RAVEN.myst]

...do you also want Rebirth's awfully broken jump refuelling mechanics back too, because they were "in a previous game"? (remember those huge queues at the jump fuel stations?)

Variables adjusted in a patch, problem solved (I haven't seen such a queue since a VERY early version of the game - I've actually played it after every major update, as it happens.) Therefore that "point" is invalid and irrelevant.

Along with this, the argument of "well I always use the jump drive therefore I need it in X4" doesn't make any sense either. The only reason you use it is because it's there and you feel silly not using it, and by using it you then fall into the trap of making the universe feel absolutely tiny and not space-like because you can literally take a huge fleet to any location instantly.

Not a truism, but a point of personal preference (which you later marginalise - ironic, huh?) To me, the X2-X3 universe doesn't feel tiny - but that's just *my* view.

Removing jump drives gives Egosoft more opportunity to actually make the clusters tactically interesting; placement of gates, stations and other assets will now actually be important instead of just a random scattering making no real difference.

So... ES are taking away JD in order to force themselves to make a decent job of placing stuff? I don't even know where to begin with THAT! I'll just say this: leaving the JD in would not in any way prevent the possibility of making things tactically interesting - the effort simply would need to take beacons and jumping into account - nothing to prevent that. "Necessity" (ie. HAVING to do something) should not be mistaken for "opportunity". Point refuted.

It also means as a player you need to think about how to move your fleets around, and outlying clusters/zones will be harder to reinforce as travel time will actually now be a resource to manage when it comes to war.

Sigh... I've been seeing this ad nauseam - and it IS making me nauseous! Time is ALWAYS a factor to be managed - it is the fundamental resource in almost every game, in some form, be it whose move it is in chess, how many SCVs you have mining crystals, how long it takes to build that [insert_asset_name], or yes, how long it takes to travel from one place to another. The JD would NOT automatically negate that aspect - however, it WOULD depend on competent and creative world and JD design to make it interesting. You refer to Rebirth above, so: not including the experimental JD added recently (which I abhor, as a matter of fact - but that's just personal preference), when exactly did you witness a capital ship jumping from anywhere to anywhere without having to factor in time? No - they can jump only from beacon to adjacent beacon, and then still have to traverse gates "on foot". So, this point is also refuted.
(*)

There are many reasons for removing jumpdrives,...

Yes, and most of these are points of personal preference - and that's fine.

but the reasons for keeping it are simply personal preference - at least from all the reasons given by people so far that I've read.

Even if this were true (which it isn't), how would that diminish their importance? I'll let you in on a little secret: almost all of my purchasing decisions are made based on my personal preferences. And I'm sure I'm far from unique in this - otherwise the marketing industry (which is all about manipulating the potential customer base's preferences to line up with the advertiser's agenda) would not exist.
I eat the food I prefer.
I wear the clothes that I prefer.
I watch films and read books that I prefer.
I drive the car I prefer... well, not quite - but the one I prefer within my affordable price range
And guess what: I play ONLY the games that I prefer - how about that!
To do otherwise than the above would be... well, it would be completely irrational.
So to dismiss any arguments as being "merely" points of preference (especially with regards to an entertainment product) is entirely illogical. Preferences sell. (Oh, and please, don't bother pointing at "poll results" unless you really really want to read a dissertation on why Internet forum polls are not only worthless, but in fact *worse than* worthless and in fact often perilously misleading )


(*)
OK, here's an analogy (I was hoping not to have to resort to these, but apparently pure logic is insufficient)
I have two oranges- no wait, make them lemons, to match the font colour
You take one away and tell me "now you can find ingenious new ways to squeeze out more from the one you have left". Well, this may be true for a juice-newbie, but for those of us who are already citrus-masters and ALREADY squeezing our lemons for all they're worth, all that's happened is we now end up with half the lemonade (and yet, ironically, now we're more sour than we were with our two lemons )

How about another? If someone were to chop off my legs and tell me what a favour he/she'd done me because now I qualify for the Para-Olympics, I'd tell him/her to go **** him/herself, only a lot less politely.

Mobility considerations are a major factor in tactics and strategy, and eliminating mobility options only narrows the scope - only a failure of imagination can suggest otherwise. The trick is to offer effective counters to all available tactics/approaches, in order to prevent any one specific option from dominating and becoming an "I win button". The removal of the JD only indicates to me either a lazy unwillingness to try, or a lack of confidence in the competence/ability to succeed (at least in the latter case it can be argued that a realistic "don't bite off more than you can chew" approach is being adopted.)

When it comes to lingerie and visual clutter, less CAN be more, yes. But when it comes down to "tactics" and "strategy", the removal of tools only *limits* options and forces approaches into more restricted outcomes and paths thereto, and that is the polar opposite of the (allegedly) desired effect.


Happy hunting. *smiley* (apparently, there's a 10-smiley limit on posts on this forum, hahahah! I just learned something new *grin*)


EDIT: @birdtable: +1 (I see you ninjaed me to a couple of points - and in much more concise, succinct manner, hehehe)

[Graaf]

Just because jumpdrives were in previous X games doesn't mean it's absolutely 100% mandatory, or do you also want Rebirth's awfully broken jump refuelling mechanics back too, because they were "in a previous game"? (remember those huge queues at the jump fuel stations?)

Better question would be if we should keep the special jumpfuel stations that only exists in 1 previous game. And according to you, using special jumpfuel was a broken feature.

JD were never a get-out-of-jail-free-ticket, since they always used fuel. And all other JD worked just fine with energy cells. Maybe just increase the fuel requirements.

[Crimsonraziel]

no wait, make them lemons, to match the font colour

Aren't lemons supposed to be yellow?

[RAVEN.myst]

no wait, make them lemons, to match the font colour

Aren't lemons supposed to be yellow?

Ripe ones, yes - but I'm SUCH an uber-citrus-meister, that I can even make do with green ones heheheheh (Actually, I don't much like lemons, except a splash in tea, occasionally - not at all a fan of them in food, though...)
On a more serious note: apparently, oranges are *actually* green, but they are somehow specially treated to make them their more appealing (not to mention familiar) colour... It's something I saw on QI, which is *usually* credible - but I forget the details (and my memory is rather less credible ) So who knows, if that's true, then perhaps lemons get a similar treatment...

[Kitty]

I personally used that little Teladi ship for exploration, the really fast one.
Almost no shielding or lasers. Certainly no jump drive.

In X3TC, Teladi Kestrel, fastest M5 available, can have a Jump drive, and has a turret.

Why not using a Boron M5 ? Half speed, lower shield, no turret, Triple scanner but no M size container and really small cargo bay. Should be much more interesting for you, shouldn't it ?

Or you'd rather use a TL ? More comfortable to see the space around with a Mojito in each hand.

Na. You use what you want. Don't require everybody use the same thing, please.

[gbjbaanb]

no wait, make them lemons, to match the font colour

Aren't lemons supposed to be yellow?

Ripe ones, yes - but I'm SUCH an uber-citrus-meister, that I can even make do with green ones heheheheh (Actually, I don't much like lemons, except a splash in tea, occasionally - not at all a fan of them in food, though...)
On a more serious note: apparently, oranges are *actually* green, but they are somehow specially treated to make them their more appealing (not to mention familiar) colour... It's something I saw on QI, which is *usually* credible

It is true - the orange is green like most fruit, but turns orange when it gets cool. So hot climates, the oranges stay green. I expect it turns orange to attract animals that will spread its seeds, like most fruits that ripen to bright colours, and does this when the weather turns cooler in autumn. Or someone packs it into a box and sticks it in refrigerated cargo.

Anyway I wonder if we can teleport oranges without the peel on? That'd be as cool as teleporting the copilot...

I still think its a bad idea that will end up being replaced with jumpdrives again. Sure, it makes some sense from a player-only thing, but considering it'll only be available in later games as you research it, that means there will be a lot of boringly boring space travel until you research it and enough range upgrades to make it worthwhile.

That doesn't necessarily bode well for fun.

[Morkonan]

I've been busy filling in the dents in my desk. I've been trying to thunk up something and bang a "reason" out of my head for removing jump-drives and inserting avatar-teleporting/whatsits... I almost had it, but then I fell unconscious and can't remember what it was. Something about a trade federation and maybe blockading the supplies they're selling to a planet because they don't want the planet to buy space-supplies or something... and a clown chick that has babies with some guy that hates sand.

Anyway, I just don't get it. I'm going to tool around space for who-knows-how-long, 'cause then it'll be "bigger an' stuff", and then I'll discover teleporting, which won't have the opposite effect of making it "bigger an' stuff." So, I can't "eat my cake and have it to, because I'll already have the cake that I can't eat, but I can"? (I ripped that quote directly out of the dev's lore bible. Srsly. For true.)

A couple more coats of varnish ought to do it. Then, my desk will be ready for some more thunking up stuffs.

Well, at least we can all be happy that the galaxy will be "big" now...

[RAVEN.myst]

Or you'd rather use a TL ? More comfortable to see the space around with a Mojito in each hand.

I like your style! (It's this sort of comfort angle why my favourite class for a personal ship in X3AP is M7C. Before I can afford that, I use a TM, and in previous games it's typically a TL, as that's the nearest equivalent.)

-stuff about the colour of oranges-

It is true - the orange is green like most fruit, but turns orange when it gets cool.

Thanks for the info

Anyway I wonder if we can teleport oranges without the peel on? That'd be as cool as teleporting the copilot...

Why would you want to teleport oranges out into space? (Yes, Annoyisha, I'm looking at you! Best keep your EVA helmet handy, is all I'm saying...)

... and a clown chick that has babies with some guy that hates sand.
...
So, I can't "eat my cake and have it to, because I'll already have the cake that I can't eat, but I can"? (I ripped that quote directly out of the dev's lore bible. Srsly. For true.)

ROFL! Thanks, Mork (may I call you 'Mork'? ) - as my good fortune would have it, I happened to read this lot as I had just finished my morning coffee ie. just late enough not to cause caffeination of my sinuses or such mishap, but early enough to catch the start of my day.

[Graaf]

Well, at least we can all be happy that the galaxy will be "big" now...

The interiors measurements of the (Star) Systems may be larger, but the galaxy isn't big at all.

[Morkonan]

...ROFL! Thanks, Mork (may I call you 'Mork'? ) - as my good fortune would have it, I happened to read this lot as I had just finished my morning coffee ie. just late enough not to cause caffeination of my sinuses or such mishap, but early enough to catch the start of my day.

Sometimes, ya just have to have a good laugh. "Mork" is fine. That's my "company name" In X games. ("Mork Co")

Now, back to polishing dents...

The interiors measurements of the (Star) Systems may be larger, but the galaxy isn't big at all.

Sure it is! It has been biggerized by removing Jump Drives! In fact, if you want to make it even bigger, all you have to do is remove another Jump Drive!

Galaxy - Jump Drive = Galaxy + Bigger

Of course, they wouldn't dare to make it even biggerer by removing movement keys. BIGGEREST GALAXY EVAR!

[-Dna-]

Sure it is! It has been biggerized by removing Jump Drives! In fact, if you want to make it even bigger, all you have to do is remove another Jump Drive!

Galaxy - Jump Drive = Galaxy + Bigger

Of course, they wouldn't dare to make it even biggerer by removing movement keys. BIGGEREST GALAXY EVAR!

Please don't try to suggest to just slow down the ships...

[PabloRSA]

How about a UFJD, with a long charge time, have to divert all shield power to jump and making you vunrable so its not worth it in battle and you can end up in a random part of the map, hell even 2km away from your start position. Or you can say in that general area + or - 50km.
You can get rid of fuel needs as it draws power from the shield generators
Say a full 60 second real life charge time with no seta.


Could also do a plot mission where you end up in the hub which has been reset and connects to all the core xenon sectors and inside is a xenon CPU/factory churing out ships.
Gong back to my original thought, xenon ore collectors going back a forth, this way xenon have an economy as such so they produce ships based on the ore they collect.

[Morkonan]

Sure it is! It has been biggerized by removing Jump Drives! In fact, if you want to make it even bigger, all you have to do is remove another Jump Drive!

Galaxy - Jump Drive = Galaxy + Bigger

Of course, they wouldn't dare to make it even biggerer by removing movement keys. BIGGEREST GALAXY EVAR!

Please don't try to suggest to just slow down the ships...

Why not? That is, effectively, what we're talking about, right?

Biggerer = Greater travel time

That's the operator being applied here, methinks. Oh, and I'm not so silly as to suggest that making the ships slower is a good idea. Instead, making them not move at all would be the bestest idea ever! THAT's how you maximize design, ladies and Borons! You want biggerer galaxies? No movement at all! SOLVED!

It'd be yuuuuuge!

[JoeVN09]

I confess to being enamoured with the Jumpdrive. I love fitting out trade fleets with individual ones so they can bypass huge swathes of space as an obstacle to profitability. I like being able to jump in my ragtag combat fleet to help me out whenever and wherever I need it, in a few seconds' notice. I love being able to shop for the best ships at various shipyards no matter how remote they are. Maybe that's part of the problem. The entire metagame of X3 revolved around the use of the JD. The AI used it extensively; it was available to the player at an early stage and pretty cheap in the grand scheme of things.

It seems that Egosoft are serious about limiting easy traversal of the universe this time around. If X4 is built from the ground up without the Jumpdrive, I'm optimistic that instead of hampering the player its absence will incentivise new types of gameplay; emphasising forward planning, spatial management and maybe cool stuff like manipulating trade routes. At the very least it will lend credibility to the living economy, as we'll know the AI isn't cheating and just spawning stuff into existence like ti used to. In that case, setting up teleportation as some kind of late-game research option rather than simply increasing the JD's pricetag is the more sensible option. That would simply make it useless at any great scale. We don't yet know the full extent of what teleportation can do, and might find that it can fulfil a number of JD functions and more.

[Graaf]

We don't yet know the full extent of what teleportation can do, and might find that it can fulfil a number of JD functions and more.

From what we learned thus far it fulfils no function at all. It will be a useless feature.