Teleportation

[CBJ]

However I am not aware that the restriction was as a result of fans asking for this.

Indeed it was not. That was a tough decision taken out of necessity, not as a response to requests. It will be a great relief to the developers, not just to the players, to be able to lift that restriction in X4. But let's not drag this thread off-topic, eh?

[Graaf]

it's also about creating opportunities for more tactical gameplay

Using the jumpdrive is a tactic on its own. Removal of the JD is diminishing the amount of tactics we can deploy.

and more variation in the universe

Removal of the JD gives more variation in the Universe? You have to explain this one, because it makes no sense.

which are too easily bypassed with the aid of a jumpdrive.

Isn't it our choice if we want to bypass something? It is a sandbox, isn't it?

That this was a reboot of the series and would mirror XBTF.

IIRC this was never said by Egosoft. This is a community response for defending the 1 ship limitation.

[Morkonan]

@Morkonan

Well, it seems that it was because a loud group of fans said that flying large ships was stupid and nobody flew multiple ships, anyway.

From what I recall we were told by Egosoft that there would be only one flyable ship. That this was a reboot of the series and would mirror XBTF.

There followed an impassioned debate over this issue. However I am not aware that the restriction was as a result of fans asking for this.

Hmmm... I had thought that it was, at least in a great part. If I'm wrong, I'm wrong, but I had thought that, at the very least, this was one of the reasons that the decision was made or that it was justified.

In any event, it was obviously a mistake. ("Obviously", perhaps only to me. )

I won't belabor the whole point of jump-drives and "bigness." I do, however, want to sum up the foundation of my argument against this particular idea:

A game that is truly "big" in a positive way takes place in a finite space where continued exploration by the player, in a variety of forms, results in the game becoming... bigger.

There's more to the feeling of "bigness" and depth and "the unknown" than just distance, space, or the fog of war. A game with the setting of a giant galaxy that is ginormous in "distances" is relatively small if there's only a handful of other game elements for the player to discover.

But, a game that takes place in a smaller setting, like a small town, can be truly "large" if there are fifty different factions, many of them hidden with secretive storylines, hundreds of characters, thousands of items and an almost infinite combination of them being possible, with dozens of main story quests and an equal or greater number of smaller, yet interesting, side-quests and adventures in unique locations.

"Depth" is a greater, more valued, attribute in a game than "space." Reducing depth in order to increase space is nonsensical without sufficient, salient, justification. (Justification that won't really be available for examination until the finish product is revealed.)

[ZaphodBeeblebrox]

@Morkonan

Just read the comment by CBJ at the top of the page.

As far as I am concerned the jump drive turned X3 into a collection of rectangular prisms.

Once obtained a lot of the sectors became irrelevant, (for me) there was very little reason to enter a lot of sectors, very little reason to fly through them to see what if anything has changed since I had last been there.

I never really felt that space was big, just a collection of "Sky Boxes."

With Rebirth and the different layout of space, plus the fact you could boost or travel through highways to get to a destination actually did make it seem bigger to me. It also seemed more "real," going from a sector near a planet to another in an asteroid field in the same solar system made the whole thing more cohesive.

I never missed the jump drive, even after it was introduced and I got one, I only used it twice. The first time was to see what it was like, and the second was to try to rescue a ship, which proved useless because it was keyed to beacons and did not allow me to get to my destination in time.

There where factions in Rebirth and they did occasionally end up having fights which I have witnessed.

[Graaf]

As far as I am concerned the jump drive turned X3 into a collection of rectangular prisms.

Once obtained a lot of the sectors became irrelevant, (for me) there was very little reason to enter a lot of sectors, very little reason to fly through them to see what if anything has changed since I had last been there.

And exactly what is going to be the difference with the transporter?

[gbjbaanb]

this teleporter.... can it be made big enough to, you know, teleport me carrying a larger object, such as, say, the ship I'm sitting in...?

If all the difference the teleporter makes is you don't get to take your ship with you, then its fundamentally no different that the JD. And if you have an identical ship on the other end to teleport to... then its actually no different (gameplay wise) to the JD.

And if that's the case, then you might as well just put the JD back in and save us the bother of micromanaging the outfitting of several identical ships to TP into.


that's basically my position on this, but I'll wait to see what ES really has come up with WRT the teleporter in case there is something we've all missed that makes it truly different.

[spankahontis]

As far as I am concerned the jump drive turned X3 into a collection of rectangular prisms.

Once obtained a lot of the sectors became irrelevant, (for me) there was very little reason to enter a lot of sectors, very little reason to fly through them to see what if anything has changed since I had last been there.

And exactly what is going to be the difference with the transporter?

Having no jumpdrives means you aren't able to just jump an entire fleet into an enemy sector.
If the enemy has hold of the jumpgate on the other side? then you have to gain a foothold into their territory.
If done right, this will lead to an epic battle to push through their vanguard in order to plant your flag in that sector and gain control of all traffic in/out of that jump gate, giving you tactical superiority.

It's basically trench warfare, you have to fight for every inch of enemy space in order to push back an enemy and assume control on a sector to sector basis, you do that until you have full control of the system.
If Egosoft will add those mechanics in to assume control of a zone/sector/system, by holding onto the territory for a given amount of time, (Like CWIR Mod does), rather than just clear out the area and await spawns to enter your conquered space over and over again? Then not having jumpdrives will thrive in such an environment.

On your concerns over teleporters, we don't know enough information other than.. "It has a limited range" and "further research makes the range longer.", "We can teleport to nearby ships." etc. But again that requires that we get ships through a jumpgate without being ripped to shreds by Overwatchs (That's how I would protect a jumpgate from a hostile neighbour, I'd fortify the Jumpgate) and I hope Egosoft think the same way as well.

Only strategy to breaking a fortified position would be to build an outpost in enemy territory, hidden from the enemy fleets that dominate neighbouring space, not being able to call for reinforcements because the gate is fortified.

Personally, I agree when someone in here said "you could just jump your ships out of danger when the going got tough I think it's a cheat to preserve your fleet rather than having that Risk/Reward factor" that will only have a deeper meaning when you can't cheat your way out of a beating.
Building a fleet and committing it to war would have a much greater meaning, where you make the wrong decision? You lose most of your fleet.
Sure people will 'save spam' before they enter battle and change their strategy if it don't work out for them the first time, but at the end of the day, everyone's play-style is different, let them.

But in war, you can't just magically make your units appear anywhere you want on the battlemap. This idea will create strategy, with a proper Fleet Management system, (Hopefully X4 has one this time).
War against a large enemy force will be more tactical, with a greater THINK & FIGHT aspect to the game.
Teleportation only allows you to jump from station to station, ship to ship within range. It CAN'T teleport a fleet to attack the enemy from it's side, you have to build a fleet in enemy Territory that has the control of resources in that territory, meaning you have to build that infrastructure and the logistics to give you an advantage in the war (Which will be hard as they control everything).

If done right?
The enemy faction could counter this strategy by sending scouts/spies to sweep their space for hidden resources and enemy bases.
They find your Base? They alert the enemies Navy and they send a fleet to destroy your factories.

You can hire contractors to build your stations, but hiding them from the enemy should be hard.
This new 'Research Mechanic' could allow for interesting technology like 'Counter-spying' They send scouts, they find your Station, you receive an alert, chase these scouts before they reach comms range of an enemy outpost.
They had comm ranges in X:Rebirth for when you wanted to capture a ship through boarding. If they were out of range? then you didn't get a rep hit on capture.
That's how this should be handled.
Your station gets a scanning boost detecting an enemy ship before it detects you, it then sends a fleet of small fighters to intercept that scout and destroy it before it can warn the enemy fleet.
Keep your bases secret and safe or lose them to the enemy.

If Egosoft do that, then not having the ability to use jumpdrives would make taking the system really hard to do if the Jumpgate is too heavily defended.

[Morkonan]

Having no jumpdrives means you aren't able to just jump an entire fleet into an enemy sector....

Have you ever tried to jump a whole fleet into an enemy sector? (X3TC/AP, as that's where my experience lies.) See an earlier post of mine detailing why you never could reliably jump a "whole fleet" into an enemy sector.

Honestly, I really don't fault anyone for making such assumptions - It's what we envision when we think of a classic sort of "Jump Drive" in books or movies.

If the enemy has hold of the jumpgate on the other side? then you have to gain a foothold into their territory.

Standard sector invasion practice = Send in some fast M5s to rush past defenders, kiting them towards middle of the sector, then enter your main fleet at a leisurely pace. Problem solved. (IOW, it's a simple case of using the AI against itself. Even if it takes awhile, the "Guard area" or "guard this" command mechanics break down after awhile, leaving the unit often guarding an area near where it was kited to, rather than the original area it was assigned. This happens frequently with player units, as well.)

...Then not having jumpdrives will thrive in such an environment.

And, so the validation for not having jump-drives is this? Or, just part of what validates the idea. (Just using this as an illustration, not criticizing your enthusiasm for some interesting gameplay mechanics.)

If you want to provide that type of experience, then do you "break" a mechanic or do you instead "add" to it?

What if only a limited amount of mass can be jumped in order enter a "sector/area" at a time? More mass than that would result in an increased risk of damage to the jumping units. (ie: Player can actually combine mechanics, then, jumping in a small force and using gate-attack-trench warfare as well.)

What if only mid-size and smaller ships could use jump-drives, because there was, supposedly, a logarithmic increase in the amount of power needed to jump a certain amount of mass? Let's say that small gunboats,destroyers and cruisers (lighter mass cruisers, only, not much more massive "missile cruisers" with their huge cargo of missiles) could use a jump drive. Fighters would be too small to house or power one and anything larger than a standard cruiser mass couldn't carry enough power to power a jump drive.

THEN, you have combined-arms mechanics to play with instead of a one-dimensional "stab them with the pointy-end" ground-pounder warfare model that, by the end of WWI, was so reviled and expensive in lives and treasure that the horror of it drove dramatic changes in equipment and tactics. (Except for a notable few who didn't last very long in WWII.)

On your concerns over teleporters, we don't know enough information other than.. "It has a limited range" and "further research makes the range longer.", "We can teleport to nearby ships." etc.

Absolutely - We don't know, yet. So, I do truly think that we can't get too worked up over this decision. However, the information/explanation that has been given to us, so far, doesn't sit so well with me.

But again that requires that we get ships through a jumpgate without being ripped to shreds by Overwatchs (That's how I would protect a jumpgate from a hostile neighbour, I'd fortify the Jumpgate) and I hope Egosoft think the same way as well.

Wasteful.

Mine it.

Point a bunch of ginormous missile launchers at it with BIG @$%-OFF EXPLODEY MISSILE MK-@$%@-U-UPs loaded in them.

Anything that projects death and can be used to break things at range should also be pointed at it. (LAZOR TOWAS ZOMGZ! )

Oh, a ginormous, uber-powerful, because you have all-day to build it, Shield Generator should be placed there, too, covering the majority of the Exit, 'cause I like the sounds that come over the radio when enemy pilots turn themselves into paint by smushing into stuffs...

Defense done. Time to play Canasta and wait. (Remember: You're the one who brought trench-warfare tactics into play, so the rest of us can play with them, too! )

Only strategy to breaking a fortified position would be to build an outpost in enemy territory, hidden from the enemy fleets that dominate neighbouring space, not being able to call for reinforcements because the gate is fortified.

I've never heard of breaking a fortified position from another fortified position. Sure, some bright generals thought that was a good plan in WWI, but they turned out to be wrong. (Artillery is nasty, though. But, only for the guys that aren't in heavily fortified positions...)

First question you have to ask: Do you really need to attack that heavily fortified position?

Second question: How can you reduce it so that it goes from a "heavily fortified position" to just a "fortified position." And, if you're feeling sparky, can you just take it all the way down to "an ex-position."

There wasn't anything in X3TC (aside from top-tier mission "specials") that couldn't be given A Very Bad Day ™ by a couple of Alpha Strikes of suitably friendly (as in "gets there fast, breaks things and kills people" friendly) ordinance. Whenever there was something I really didn't feel like dealing with in X3TC, I'd accompany a few Yokohamas and press "Alpha Strike" commands a couple of times. If there was still a big red blip, I'd give the same command until there wasn't any big red blip...

Personally, I agree when someone in here said "you could just jump your ships out of danger when the going got tough I think it's a cheat to preserve your fleet rather than having that Risk/Reward factor" that will only have a deeper meaning when you can't cheat your way out of a beating.

Such claims are strange. A jump-drive has a countdown... By the time you figure out you're overmatched, you're usually under heavy fire and those few seconds are often not short enough...

Keep in mind, the ships have to jump somewhere. And, thanks to X3TC's jump/gate mechanics, you're not going to be able to jump a large fleet to the same gate. (ie: A quick Bug Out order to do it as fast as you could) You'd have to actually plan on where groups would have to jump to. If you didn't, then half your fleet might escape, successfully, and the rest would be waiting on "their turn" in the gate que while the missiles, lasers and other unpleasant stuff targeting them would not have to wait...

I dunno, maybe a lot of players here played an X3TC I never got to play, since it appears that everyone says a "jump drive" can do all this magical stuff that I could never reliably do in my own game.

(IS there something I'm missing here? Did all you guys have something going on that I didn't? I'm serious, not being sarcastic - Half the stuff posted on jump-drives that people are claiming one could do were not things that could be reliably done in my gameplay experience of X3TC. You could "sometimes" do "some of this stuff" but nothing to the extent that I'm frequently seeing people mention.)

Building a fleet and committing it to war would have a much greater meaning, where you make the wrong decision? You lose most of your fleet.

All because of a "jump drive" thing? No way. No way at all. You send a real fleet into a real fleet engagement, you're going to lose stuff. And, if you're actually there and participating in it, you'll likely lose even more. (It depends on how you equip everything.) But... it will be glorious.

If you want to talk about critical combat components then you'd have to look at how X3AP's combat mechanics were improved and why. Then, what you need to do is to extend some of those. Why? Missiles and Torps killed anything, anywhere. If you want "slugfests" you have to bulk up prime targets, like capital ships and military stations. AND, an important point, that prevents adventurous players from taking them on in their lowly little fighter or other poorly equipped ship. That may not be a good thing, depending on how you look at such gameplay experiences.

So, do you want a player firing a BIG @SS RAPIST TORPEDO at a hated capital ship to actually have any effect or not? That's why balancing necessary mechanics vs player-experience is so very critical for the quality of the game.

... This idea will create strategy..

No. That is ungoodthink.

What is the "strategy" value of a game of checkers? There are few overall "strategies" one can employ in that game. Why is that? It's simple, right? The tools necessary to create strategy are very limited.

The more tools you have, the more strategies and tactics you can use.

If I have a bow, I can shoot arrows at people. That's pretty awesome. But, if I don't kill all of them, they'll eventually catch up to me or overrun my position. That would be bad.

But, if I have a bow and a horse, then it will be very difficult for them to catch me! Plus, I can stay away from the really dangerous ones and keep sticking pointy arrows into them until they don't move anymore.

And, if I have one guy with a bow and a guy with a bow and a horse, I can force them to attack the guy with the bow while being under constant flanking fire from the guy with the bow and the horse! That other guy can move so fast, he can create flanking attacks all by himself!

There is no way that limiting the tools one can use results in better opportunities for "strategy." It certainly, if anything, increases combat "predictability" and boils down engagements to whatever their most common elements happen to be, whether that's numbers, weapon strengths, mass, hull point values, whatever.

This is how you get "Just dump a boatload of Laser Towers in front of the gate and call it a day" strategy. For excitement, dump some mines there, as well. If you're feeling frisky, you can station a few big ships there for funsies, but they're probably not needed.

And, if you say this wouldn't work, because attacking fleets are just too darn powerful, then... why have laser towers, mines and other such defensive emplacements if they're so very useless? So, you have to go back and change them, so they're either not as effective or, if you wish to make them more useful, even more effective. Then, you have to give big fleets the ability to counter those, since they're "Big Fleets" and that's what they're supposed to be able to do. Then, you go back and forth, trying to balance all of this stuff, repeatedly, ad nauseum...

All because "jump drives are teh evil."

Note: A lot of players with very advanced gamesaves purposefully introduced handicaps in order to spice up their play. Some did some really crazy stuff, too. But, in reality, for a late-game player, there were never any threats of any true significance in X3TC. If certain spawn/owneship mechanics were not in place, late-game players could have defeated any/all of the native factions. (AP had its issues, there, but I never played that as long as I did TC.)

[Graaf]

Like I said before. Just use the original jumpdrive. The one that only let us jump to gates.

All this talk about gate defenses and fortifications and the single (limited) tactic to defeat it. *sarcasm ON* It really sounds like an expanded user experience *sarcasm OFF*.

[Santi]

One of the things by reading this thread that becomes apparent is that the Jump Drive needs nerfing for it to offer the same kind of gameplay that teleportation could offer.

Take limited amount of mass. You can jump cruisers and frigates, but fighters and Carriers need to use standard flight methods, not only the timing is going to be an issue, but also it makes no sense, wait for part of your fleet to arrive by highway or booster then jump the rest. At the end you will go for a swarm tactic of jumping a massive amount of medium ships.

Of course it is down too as to how everybody plays the game. I love logistics, setting up trade routes and small outposts with fight squadrons to call when needed. Things like Kick ass fleet V or Split Combat Team Argh. I tend to flesh out my faction as much as I can. Teleporting I believe is more rewarding to that kind of gameplay.

[mr.WHO]

Simply restore X-Rebirth system of jump beacons for capitals and normal jump drive tha is limited to within the system (so you cannot jump to other systems).

[birdtable]

Problem is ... we are comparing a known means of transport "jumpdrive" with an unknown one .."Transporter".
Comparing an imagined Transporter and all the possibilities it could deliver (with a mixture of wishful thinking) to a Jumpdrive with known attributes plus the all conquering properties it appears wrongfully to have been associated with I think teleportation will be a risky device for Egosoft to deliver..

[Morkonan]

One of the things by reading this thread that becomes apparent is that the Jump Drive needs nerfing for it to offer the same kind of gameplay that teleportation could offer.

Based on the concerns voiced in this thread concerning jump-drives and the threat of them being over-powered in terms of gameplay, I'd have to agree. Plus, that just makes you have to work and plan a little harder when using them, which is fine by me. It's just a tool, after all. Tools are good, even if they're not perfect.

Take limited amount of mass. You can jump cruisers and frigates, but fighters and Carriers need to use standard flight methods, not only the timing is going to be an issue, but also it makes no sense, wait for part of your fleet to arrive by highway or booster then jump the rest. At the end you will go for a swarm tactic of jumping a massive amount of medium ships.

That depends, doesn't it? Hasn't the subject of buffing capital ships come up, so they're not so vulnerable to smaller ships?

That's also why I suggested that only the smaller ships can use jump-drives, up to maybe, just maybe, something the size of a "cruiser" in modern parlance. And, then, only maybe one specialized type of cruiser. So, for instance, a Yokohama couldn't do it. And, if it could, that would be waaay OP, since it can take out most of a sector itself if it has fighter support. But, a Katana might be able to do it, if it wasn't carrying a lot of missiles. (If cargo bays had classifications, like for munitions, cargo, energy and "special" this would take care of the issue, since certain size ships wouldn't have a slot for a JD.)

What does that do?

Well, now you have some choices for "Fleet Action" tactics. Your capitals are going nowhere fast - They can't hold enough energy to jump due to their mass. But, you've got some medium ships that can jump and, if you wish to restrict it further, a couple of classes of fighters that can hold enough energy to use a JD. You can combine and plan for using the two different types of movement available to you.

But, importantly, it also makes jump-drives available for the early-game player, provided he can find one and pay for it. This lets the player explore a bit easier. One could even include different classes of jump drives, so that the JD for anything larger than a fighter is a different beast, making the player work again to equip their next logical, larger, ship. And, keep in mind, not all fighters available to the early-game player would be able to equip a JD to begin with, further adding fighter-selection as a priority for the player, depending upon what utility functions they want.

Do they want a heavily armed and protected fighter with decent dogfighting characteristics or do they want a slightly more massive, less manueverable fighter in a dogfight, but one that can support a Jump Drive Mk1, suitable for its class of fighter? Or, maybe they want something with speed, for fast in-sector travel, and excellent handling characteristics with decent energy-weapon output, but no JD and limited cargo?

Suitable restrictions could make JD's an interesting mechanic to have to plan around. And, the early-game player isn't terribly penalized, since large ships are the only ones that can't use them and they won't be getting one of those early, anyway.

Of course it is down too as to how everybody plays the game. I love logistics, setting up trade routes and small outposts with fight squadrons to call when needed. Things like Kick ass fleet V or Split Combat Team Argh. I tend to flesh out my faction as much as I can. Teleporting I believe is more rewarding to that kind of gameplay.

That's true, as far as individual styles are concerned. But, this will ultimately be dictated by the mechanics of X4. I know what my playstyle for X3 is, but have no idea what X4 will demand. I hope the structure of the game is similar, since I too love drilling down logistics.

But, I desperately want a good fleet management system and enough variables there in combat mechanics that I have to plan, in detail, my actions. I don't want to just order my all-Terrain fleet into action to plow through whatever the enemy has available. I want to have to plan for all aspects of combat, from logistics to weapon and defensive loadouts... and for movement, fleet patrols and stations, so they are where they need to be... or not. (I'm also the type that enjoyed having to construct fleets and ships specifically for IS or OS combat... and keeping them in those roles. Call me a masochist. )

Plus, "teleporting", beyond what was already available in X3TC for pilots and cargo, is just... derpy.

[Santi]

I agree there is a lot of wishful thinking, personally I expect the whole sector take over to be a very basic affair, either as they said, by building your own stations with no permission or by destroying them. I do not think there is going to be anything near an AI for war to be used by factions against other factions or the player.

Saying that, I have a more clear idea of how the map is going to be. And the "sectors" do not really exist as per X3. There are going to be huge areas some of them densely populated and others not so much.

Like I said before. Just use the original jumpdrive. The one that only let us jump to gates.

This is a clear example of the wrongness of it because of the new map. Gates will be few and far in between. Going by X Rebirth, say they expanded it, a couple dozen maybe? You may have another 5 minutes real time flight to make it to the action.

Jump beacons is a good compromise, except that you need to pepper the whole of the map with them. Think X Rebirth and how vast the zones are. Check the presentation and how much space is between assets.

The only way it could work will be with a point to point system, that at the end of the day will be overpowered.

@Morkonan those are very good points and myself will love to get that level of fine tuning for fleets, but I have the feeling that it is a bit early for that.

[Morkonan]

I agree there is a lot of wishful thinking, personally I expect the whole sector take over to be a very basic affair, either as they said, by building your own stations with no permission or by destroying them. I do not think there is going to be anything near an AI for war to be used by factions against other factions or the player.

(On Sectors: I agree, but we have to use what analogies we have. )

That depends, really... In X3TC, certain factions would send raiding fleets against the other. I saw several very fun engagements between the Boron and Split raiding fleets. I think the Paranid even got ticked off with someone, at some point in one of my games.

I think that the most important thing in a game that isn't focused on the player "taking over the world" is that while conflict exists between NPC factions, it can not "progress" past a certain point where it could severely hamper a player's game.

To this end, one can use the analogy of "Home" vs "Outlying/Frontier" sectors. Because it would be necessary for a foe to conquer Home sectors/areas, NPC offensive fleets would never enter those sectors. Instead, they would occasionally raid "Frontier" sectors, causing havoc. An additional "Outlying" sector category, similar to the faction's "Suburbs" could be added. Here, NPC factions "might" raid, but not without the player "participating" in some way, either by finishing a mission/quest or by joining the raiding faction as a mercenary.

The analogy with Warband is fairly apt. Though that game is based upon the player objective being to "conquer the world", many times in the vanilla game and in many mods, NPC interfaction wars do not usually progress very far for either side without direct player intervention.

This preserves the relative stability of the setting and faction power while the player develops their own capabilities at their own pace.

For X4, you could certain manage to script "raids" into the game, like in X3TC, as well as categories areas where a faction can attack on its own, where the faction can only attack with player intervention or the player completing a quest that sends the two factions "to war" and, lastly, a region where no attacks or raids will take place (at least no successful ones) unless the player is actively involved in the war on one side or the other. (That works for offense and defense player actions when they have decided to align themselves with a faction or have become a mercenary of that faction.)

In short - The most important and difficult thing is not figuring out how to have factions fight against each other, but how to preserve the milieu so they player's game is not unduly interrupted/hampered by NPC actions. (The player is supposed to be the one playing the game, after all. ) By setting certain restrictions on what factions can do and by requiring the player's active involvement in anything potentially destabilizing, you can preserve the stability of the milieu and let the player decide when or if they wish a full scale war, limited war or just want to let the spoiler raiding continue so they can pick up the salvage.

Note: X4 isn't going to be a "randomly generated map." So, having a sophisticated AI capable of making complex "decisions" during the entirety of the game, responding to dynamic events, isn't really necessary. Something basic, able to select from sets of targets with weighted values, which might change based on player actions, would be all that was needed with a "raiding fleet" script and limitations based on some sort of point/economic/fleet-points system.

If the game can send a merchant ship from point A to point B in order to take advantage of low purchase prices, it can conduct a war against a race faction on its own. Of course, we can't have it destabilizing the game for the player, so player interaction would be necessary for anything other than heavy "raiding" when two races are actually at war with each other.

...The only way it could work will be with a point to point system, that at the end of the day will be overpowered.

For one - Don't say "only." There are a variety of ways a JD could work. We don't yet know enough about how the map is constructed to present truly workable solutions, but that doesn't mean there aren't any.

@Morkonan those are very good points and myself will love to get that level of fine tuning for fleets, but I have the feeling that it is a bit early for that.

Agreed. But, it's worth dreaming about and it keeps me excited for X4!

[Graaf]

Like I said before. Just use the original jumpdrive. The one that only let us jump to gates.

This is a clear example of the wrongness of it because of the new map. Gates will be few and far in between.

Just above they where taking about the magnificent*cough* battles for breaching the gate defenses. Something apparently only possible if we eliminate the JD.
Using the original JD, nothing about that changes.
Which part is wrong?

Going by X Rebirth, say they expanded it, a couple dozen maybe? You may have another 5 minutes real time flight to make it to the action.

That's it? A whole 5 minutes? That's a whopping 30km in my Mercury. I can't even leave Argon Prime with that.
I though those new systems where supposed to be bigger.

[Greenhorn]

Just thinking ,players ,what happens if you have trading ships, in sector C,doing automatic trading,then suddenly you get message alarm saying;{one of your trading ships or station is under attack?}.but im the player flying in sector A,i use turbo boost or max speed,just to get to gate B,by the time I get to sector C my trading ship or ships /station are toast,hmmm.,and no jumpdrive for player or ,my warships? to the rescue,to just get in the secter?.This to me sound like every time you get a message /alarm about, your ships or station {blank is under attack}then you have no hope in saving them.Unless you buy, place, ships in every sector . hmmm bye.

[Killjaeden]

Like I said before. Just use the original jumpdrive. The one that only let us jump to gates.

This is a clear example of the wrongness of it because of the new map. Gates will be few and far in between. Going by X Rebirth, say they expanded it, a couple dozen maybe? You may have another 5 minutes real time flight to make it to the action.

And how is that a bad thing? You argue that old JD is overpowered, but if it's not the same as before you claim it to be a "proof" of it's worthlessness. Please... do we really have to bring down the discussion to extremist logic level... "he who is not my friend must be my enemy" ?

However I am not aware that the restriction was as a result of fans asking for this.

Indeed it was not. That was a tough decision taken out of necessity, not as a response to requests. It will be a great relief to the developers, not just to the players, to be able to lift that restriction in X4.

I remember Bernd saying something along the lines how capitalship flying was always boring and how it didnt have much value...

[Skeeter]

How will the teleporter work i wonder. I hope its not a magic device where i just go in a menu click teleport click which ship and im there. I mean is there a actual teleporter on each ship can i see it if im walking on a ship can i go up to it and activate it before the menus start becoming involved to pick a destination. I hope there is a teleporter booth where u teleport to and from and its not magic where u just spawn in the cockpit or room without the actual teleporter. Also should there be a countdown like a jumpdrive used with betty saying stand in teleporter then when ur in she counts down and maybe get a cool first person effect going on like say what ud see in star trek, so lot of light and sfx.

Will there be limits, like 1 teleport per x time so the device needs to recharge as i would imagine it uses alot of power?

Can you always use it or will there be a if in battle you cant use it situation, u need to be in a calm situation where nothing is happening to your ship then u can use it?

If distance is too great can there be a chance of failure so theres a risk involved, so if its many many sectors away theres a chance and it tells you that if u attempt the teleport you risk not appearing and can die? Basing this kinda when in elite 2 there was a chance you could be jumped to a different area of space, kinda like that but you die in x4 with the teleporter.

With the x games focusing on jump tech in the early games why change, yes it has certain advantages for bypassing stuff but thats what its for. Why change to a teleport i wonder, its the same as a jump drive tbh but limited. Kinda ruins the lore if u remove it now.

What they should have done is rebalance it so using it has risks so your more careful or introduce cool down timers based on ship size or have the drive damage your ship with a percent chance based on factors as status of drive or health of ship etc.

[RodentofDoom]

It could be an interesting change to the tactical side of the gameplay.

Sans JD's we're going to have think a bit/lot more carefully about what, where & how we operate.

The downside is .. TP could still result in an untenable situation remaining unresolvable.