Star Trek - Discovery

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imperium3
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Post by imperium3 » Fri, 20. Oct 17, 14:12

Jericho wrote: The first 2 seasons of Next Generation where utter shite. I'm amazed the show was picked up after the pilot. It became something awesome.
In retrospect, they are bad, but it seems audiences at the time watched it anyway - maybe because they didn't have the heights of later seasons to compare it with.

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Post by Usenko » Fri, 20. Oct 17, 15:08

imperium3 wrote:
Jericho wrote: The first 2 seasons of Next Generation where utter shite. I'm amazed the show was picked up after the pilot. It became something awesome.
In retrospect, they are bad, but it seems audiences at the time watched it anyway - maybe because they didn't have the heights of later seasons to compare it with.
Having re-watched them with my kids, both seasons have moments of pure joy, even if they struggle. And more importantly, the characterisation of most of the main cast is strong (Deanna Troi less so; I think she really only hit her stride when she did her bridge exam, and therefore her identity as Counsellor became a background detail rather than her reason for being).

So even if you found most of the shows poor, there was (I think) evidence of potential.
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Post by Antilogic » Fri, 20. Oct 17, 15:16

her reason for being
Was her breasts, according to her in later after show ended interviews.

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Post by Rnett » Fri, 20. Oct 17, 18:16

I thought this was her best episode. Too bad is was late in the series.

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Post by mrbadger » Fri, 20. Oct 17, 19:22

Personally I like Tin Man best.

{Link fixed - Terre}
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Post by Morkonan » Fri, 20. Oct 17, 20:23

I didn't like most of the TNG episodes... There were a few that stood out and some storylines that were decent.

Troi's character didn't have much substance. It didn't serve much of a purpose, really. And, when it did, it seemed to undercut other characters.

There was one thing I really didn't like about TNG - The "flying city in space" theme. They had everything. Sure, a "Ship's Counselor" uh... I guess. OK, fine, maybe some Star Trekkie "Momma Starfleet is gonna make it alright" kind of far-future cuddle club thing makes having a Ship's Counselor in on every Top Secret thread in the series is necessary. But...

"So, what do you do on this ship?"

"I'm a hydroponics specialist studying the effects of decomposing plant material on the evolution of modern transporter theory and its impact on the selection of healthy breakfast beverages." said Lt. Dan.

They had all the human resources they needed, right on the ship. Families, kids, etc... I tried to ignore it, but it sometimes just got to be too much for a ship that often went into "harm's way."

In TOS, when they had to solve a problem, they'd pull something out of their butt, tape it together, spray-paint a smiley-face on it and shove it into a torpedo tube and hope for the best.

In TNG, they'd order it from Space Amazon or, worse, they'd sit around a table and have "meetings...."

"There's a giant space monster, Captain!"

"Red Alert! All senior officers to the Briefing Room. All Department heads must submit Space Power-Point presentations in five minutes! We'll have Teambuilding breakout sessions afterwards and I want all personnel to answer their job satisfaction surveys before the end of their shifts! Family Picnic Day and Job Fair is cancelled, but we will still be holding the Singalong Concert on the observation deck this evening and Commander Riker will still be giving his presentation on the best tourist dining facilities on planet Zeta Nine, so crew who have signed up for an excursion pack, there, should attend, but those who have the Starfleet Tours "Gold" package will already have their presentation package and should assemble on the Promenade deck at zero-seven-hundred tomorrow. Pack a light snack, but lunch will provided. If, however, you are allergic to nuts or Zetan Yeast, you should bring..."

"Shields, sir?

"Hmmm. I don't think so, Ensign. It might not be hostile. We don't want to overreact, here."


Sorry... It's just that they weren't isolated enough. Space wasn't a "dangerous wasteland with mysterious mysteries and a crew with limited resources navigating dangerous waters with danger..." anymore.

And, the producers knew that fault, hence "Enterprise." That show tried, but wasn't received as well, since the Star Trek TNG theme had been pushed far past the original TOS theme and a new audience expected a bit more TNG'ish sort of stuffs. It didn't help that Enterprise had its own flaws. But, strangely enough, I liked it a bit more, most of the time, than TNG. (It did have some over-the-top junk in it, though, that was hard to get past.) Even DS9, which I loathed, had a better setting and underlying theme than TNG, IMO.

I long for a gritty space adventure show, no matter the IP. Something that doesn't have any nuanced wishy-washy garbage in it, but focuses on hard, raw, archetypical characters with a few surprises, here and there. A straightforward show with some darn basic "morality plays" that put basic human values on the line when people are confronted with the unknown and unimaginably dangerous setting of "space adventuring" is what I want.

Dunno if the latest show will deliver that or not.

I googled "Star Trek Discovery" to see what the imagery looked like. Everything is either Blue or a "sickly" Yellowish Orange.... /sigh :)

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Post by pjknibbs » Sat, 21. Oct 17, 04:19

Well, they weren't really *expecting* the ship to go into harm's way most of the time, and the reason it did get into harm's way so much was because it wouldn't have been much of a series otherwise? I mean, the small village of Midsomer from the UK series "Midsomer Murders" has a murder rate comparable to inner city USA, but that apparently doesn't put people off living there!

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Post by Morkonan » Mon, 23. Oct 17, 07:11

pjknibbs wrote:Well, they weren't really *expecting* the ship to go into harm's way most of the time...
They weren't? K, let's apply the gun-violence-statistic-model to this thing! GunVaxers, unite and do your maths wizardries!

STAR FLEET SHIP STATISTICS (Mork Mk1 version)

These statistics have been compiled from Starfleet Database reported vessel statistics discovered during transmission Omicron.


Average number of Star Fleet flagged vessels involved in all combats: 78%

Likelihood of being cited as "Missing: Whereabouts Unknown:" 8%

Likelihood of being boarded by a hostile force: 36%

Likelihood of being contaminated by a space disease: 18%

Ships with emergent rogue AI: 7%

Ships destroyed or damaged with loss-of-life from "space weather": 65%

Ships boarded and hijacked for nefarious purposes, resulting in crewmember deaths: 22%

Ships haunted by ghosts, resulting in crewmember deaths: 5%

Ships destroyed on their shakedown cruise: 5%

Likelihood of being eaten or partially consumed by giant space-monsters with crewmember deaths: 12%

Ships arriving at official destination on time, all missions: 3%

Ships experiencing an uncontrolled decaying orbit: 10%

Ships experiencing uncontrolled warp-drive shutdowns: 71%

Ships experiencing complete loss of power, all causes: 95%

Transporter malfunction incident rate: 13%

Crews encountering hostile life-forms (non-humanoid) during Away Team missions: 50%

Crewmember incident rate of sexually transmitted diseases (humanoid): 8%

Insanity rate, all crews: 3%

Murder rate, all crews, all official assignments: 15%

Incident rate of unauthorized discharge of a weapon aboard ship, all ships: 7%

Per ship, incident rate of catastrophic equipment malfunction not due to combat action during service life-time, resulting in damage, loss of life or loss of ship: 99%

...


And they have a day-care center on the Enterprise... :)

***********

Also, I just noticed something:

Star Trek (Original Series): TOS
Star Trek: The Next Generation: TNG
Deep Space Nine: DS9
Voyager: (No generally accepted abbreviation - Voy)
Enterprise: ENT

Star Trek Discovery: .... STD

That doesn't bode well. :)

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Post by Jericho » Mon, 23. Oct 17, 09:02

Morkonan wrote:
Troi's character didn't have much substance. It didn't serve much of a purpose, really. And, when it did, it seemed to undercut other characters.
Sirtis (who plays Troi) and Dorn (Plays Worf) became really close best friends on set... Maybe more, but they were both married, so who knows.

In retrospective interviews on DVDs and VHS releases, they were often interviewed together, and you can clearly see how well they got along.

In one of the interviews, Sirtis was half-heatedly trying to justify her character: "Star Trek has had Klingons before, but they've never had a councilor before!"

Dorn: "Pffff, Yeah, I wonder WHY?!?!"

I feel that Q was overused in TNG, but he did have a few choice things to say about their mission. He tells them that they have no idea what is out there, and throws them at the Borg to prove his point. He says something like "What is your important mission? Cataloging gaseous anomalies?" with condescension in his voice.

Picard's face in response to that is "FML. Yes I know, I know, I want to shoot Romulins."

Wil Bloody Wheaton... That's what drives me really mad. He's grown into an annoying 45 year old brat version of Wesley. Who thought it would be a good idea to put a kid on the bridge, that was universally hated, and then George Lucas seeing that does the same thing with Anakin Skywalker?
"I've got a bad feeling about this!" Harrison Ford, 5 times a year, trying to land his plane.

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Post by Golden_Gonads » Mon, 23. Oct 17, 09:07

Jericho wrote:I feel that Q was overused in TNG, but he did have a few choice things to say about their mission. He tells them that they have no idea what is out there, and throws them at the Borg to prove his point.
The Borg were already coming (Retconned in at least, as the Borg from... First Contact called them (as seen in Enterprise), Q just showed them early accelerating things, but giving the Federation a chance to prepare. (Though without Q, who's to say First Contact would have happened, in which case...)

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Post by Jericho » Mon, 23. Oct 17, 10:55

Golden_Gonads wrote:
The Borg were already coming (Retconned in at least, as the Borg from... First Contact called them (as seen in Enterprise),

Nope, I refuse to accept the Borg in Enterprise. That was beyond a step to far. Even section 31 magically forgot about them...

I prefer the Shatner version of the Borg... VGER was from one of the branches of the Collective... Actually quite a good book, if a little simple. Also the USS Monitor sounded like a cool ship (Non-reflective black paint, no running lights, no emissions version of Defiant.)


Actually, I prefer the other origin of the borg, Enterprise's sister ship with Captain Hernandez (I think), thrown across the galaxy and become the first Borg as they merge with alien energy. Or something. It's been a while.
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Post by Retiredman » Mon, 23. Oct 17, 13:21

Discovery-- The series that threw Roddenberry's canon in the garbage.
The way it's packaged it won't last a season.
You think a hero is some weird sandwitch and not a guy attacking a Xeno J with a kestrel.

Sir.. I said .. A guy attacking a J with a kestrel is the sandwitch.

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Post by pjknibbs » Mon, 23. Oct 17, 15:21

Retiredman wrote:Discovery-- The series that threw Roddenberry's canon in the garbage.
Eh? They did that years ago--probably around the time DS9 was in development, in fact, but at the latest when Enterprise started. At least Discovery has the excuse of being set in an alternate timeline for crapping all over the canon history!

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Post by Usenko » Mon, 23. Oct 17, 15:27

They've actually gone to the pile on the kerb and grabbed quite a lot of the canon they'd seemingly put out for collection with tonight's episode. :)
Morkonan wrote:What really happened isn't as exciting. Putin flexed his left thigh during his morning ride on a flying bear, right after beating fifty Judo blackbelts, which he does upon rising every morning. (Not that Putin sleeps, it's just that he doesn't want to make others feel inadequate.)

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Post by burger1 » Mon, 23. Oct 17, 16:11

Star Trek Discovery renewed for season 2

http://www.hollywoodreporter.com/live-f ... ss-1051003

I wonder how of the bill was covered by netflix since they pretty much paid for season 1.

16 episodes instead of 15 in the current season?

The SVOD service, perhaps in response to Discovery's delays, split the 16-episode season-one order in half. The first half concludes Nov. 12, with the remaining six episodes returning weekly starting in January

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Post by mrbadger » Mon, 23. Oct 17, 17:39

So Discovery is in the new Timeline established in the latest movies then?

I didn't realise that. Not that it's going to make me watch it any sooner, I'm still not convinced there's any life remaining in that particular horse shaped corpsicle.

I might get a free netflix trial and watch the first episode, but I'm in no rush.
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Post by Morkonan » Mon, 23. Oct 17, 18:19

Jericho wrote:...In one of the interviews, Sirtis was half-heatedly trying to justify her character: "Star Trek has had Klingons before, but they've never had a councilor before!"

Dorn: "Pffff, Yeah, I wonder WHY?!?!"
Ah! "Counselor Cleavage."

She was originally supposed to have... four breasts. :)
I feel that Q was overused in TNG, but he did have a few choice things to say about their mission. He tells them that they have no idea what is out there, and throws them at the Borg to prove his point. He says something like "What is your important mission? Cataloging gaseous anomalies?" with condescension in his voice.

Picard's face in response to that is "FML. Yes I know, I know, I want to shoot Romulins."
"Q" is an interesting problem. A practically omnipotent, omniscient, alien with dubious morals, no ethics whatsoever, that does whatever it wants must have some sort of storytelling purpose, right?

Q is Star Trek: TNG's "magic beans" as well as the foil for its humanistic philosophy.

Whenever they don't have a way to put the crew into a situation they want to explore, here comes Q to the rescue. Q is Star Trek's "god", passing judgement on man, but is a fatally flawed deity, entirely derived from a humanistic need to demonstrate that "man" is superior and the idyllic Star Trek destiny is our rightful heritage, nature, god, politics, be damned...
Wil Bloody Wheaton... That's what drives me really mad. He's grown into an annoying 45 year old brat version of Wesley. Who thought it would be a good idea to put a kid on the bridge, that was universally hated, and then George Lucas seeing that does the same thing with Anakin Skywalker?
Just like Counselor Cleavage, it's a mechanic used to try to gain viewers. Unfortunately, unlike some other shows, they couldn't write that character into something that was plausible. The show was not a family comedy or a coming-of-age show, it was a sci-fi adventure-drama series where bad things frequently happened.

Imagine your the producer for your favorite shoot-em-up drama series. Now, add a child as one of the main recurring characters, 'cause you're worried that you don't have enough of everything in the show for every possible viewer that might stumble into the television and accidentally end up watching the show... Then, you wake up and realize what you've done, but it's done now, so you're stuck with it.

On Wheaton: I hated his character. But, I have nothing against him. In fact, he does some pretty cool stuff and has managed to reach past his character on Star Trek to make something out of himself and carve a niche. That's pretty admirable, considering how reviled his appearance was on the show by Star Trek fans. I've enjoyed a bit of his stuff, here and there, on games and such, but don't make a habit out of following his activities. (Acquisitions Incorporated is pretty good and he used to play on it a bit. Anyone who plays D&D can't be all bad! :) )

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Post by clakclak » Mon, 23. Oct 17, 22:23

Really like it. Not mutch more to say about it.
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Post by Usenko » Tue, 24. Oct 17, 08:19

mrbadger wrote:So Discovery is in the new Timeline established in the latest movies then?

I didn't realise that. Not that it's going to make me watch it any sooner, I'm still not convinced there's any life remaining in that particular horse shaped corpsicle.

I might get a free netflix trial and watch the first episode, but I'm in no rush.
It's in the Prime (original) timeline, although there are all kinds of continuity snarls anyway (because you can't do 50 years worth of Science Fiction continuity without them! :) ). Anyway, it's supposed to be set about 10 years before Kirk, Spock, McCoy et al started doing stuff aboard the Enterprise.

However, their solution to the age old problem of "how to make it look high tech and match the aesthetic of the 60s at the same time" has been to "Stuff it, forget the 1960s aesthetic, this is what it ALWAYS looked like but we didn't have the technology to show it to you, got it?" :)

And Clakclack: Totally agree. There's things I don't like, but it's very definitely growing on me.
Morkonan wrote:What really happened isn't as exciting. Putin flexed his left thigh during his morning ride on a flying bear, right after beating fifty Judo blackbelts, which he does upon rising every morning. (Not that Putin sleeps, it's just that he doesn't want to make others feel inadequate.)

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Post by pjknibbs » Tue, 24. Oct 17, 09:17

Usenko wrote: It's in the Prime (original) timeline
.
.
.
Anyway, it's supposed to be set about 10 years before Kirk, Spock, McCoy et al started doing stuff aboard the Enterprise.
Which means it's not in the Prime timeline, because the timeline split occurred when the Nerada came back in time and destroyed Kirk's father's ship when Kirk was either yet to be born or still a baby, I forget which--e.g. before the time in which Diiscovery is set, if it's only 10 years before Kirk arrives on the Enterprise.

In fact, Memory Alpha (the Star Trek wiki) says that the 2009 Star Trek movie starts in 2233, so that's when the timeline split occurs. The main part of that movie is in 2258, while Discovery is 2256, only two years earlier.

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