Suggestion/Idea Carrier/Fleet Automatic Reinforcing

[TonyEvans]

(Additional Edit Notes will be at bottom of post)
Edit 1: Formatted Text. Eliminated useless text. Removed unnecessary humor. Implemented input from response. Scratch that, made humor better.
Edit 2: Added Ship Point system. Removed unnecessary text.

My Idea: Automatic Fleet Replenishment.

What I would like to see in X:Foundations is a simpler, but flexible, way to keep fleets at full strength without player micromanaging. This post will include the idea for both Fleets (either large battlegroups, trader convoys, and defense fleets) and Carriers (fighters/drones). I'll be as specific as possible, and I would greatly appreciate feedback from both players and devs.

Fleets:
Part 1- Once the player forms a fleet, its composition is automatically saved to Memory. Any loss of ships is recorded, and a Replace Order is made available.

Part 2 The player then chooses his replacement options

On Ship Loss

• Do not replace ships -|- Always Replace Ships -|- Player Must Approve (Ask) -|- Do not ask, player will replace

When to Replace

• Player Selects a % of fleet strength remaining (see Ship Points below)

If Replacement is permitted

• Use Specific Shipyard(s) -|- Use Specific Faction -|- Use Only Player Facilities -|- Use any Available Shipyard

When Replacement is ordered

• Continue with current order -|- Wait at present location -|- Meet Replacement at shipyard/as soon as possible

*Note* If the option is left open to pick where to resupply ships from, it will prioritize based on cost, proximity and shortest wait/queue. In the event automatic resupply cannot be accomplished for any reason (lack of funds, lack of friendly stations, etc), the player will receive an automatic message and further resupply attempts will be cancelled until restarted.

Carriers:
In many ways exactly the same as for Fleets, but the recovery system will be slightly different. Well, really different.

Part 1-

• Fighter/Drone compositions are saved to memory.

Part 2-

• Player determines If/Where/How fighters and drones are resupplied. Same rules as the first 3 lists in Part 2 of Fleets.

Part 3- ResupplyWhen the Fighter/Drone buy order is placed, the supplying station commissions a Hauler to deliver the goods.

The Hauler Dispatched Haulers are not player property, but the player is responsible for them as well as their cargo (which is your property), much in the way you would rent a car. If a Hauler is destroyed:

• The player is not given any refund for loss of goods ordered.
  The player is fined a fee, which goes to the station so it can replace its hauler.
  If the player cannot make payment on the fee, a faction standing loss is incurred.
  Also, the player will gain an outstanding debt to the station, and will be placed on a do-not-sell list, prohibiting future transactions until the debt is paid. Teladi may add an inconvenience fee. At their convenience.

When Fighter Replacement is ordered

• Carrier waits at current location -|- Carrier continues with current order -|- Carrier moves to meet Hauler

Carrier interaction within a fleet

• If the carrier is the fleet commander, all ships will accompany carrier as normal.
  If carrier is not the fleet commander, it will use Fleet Commander resupply orders. If resupply is needed, command temporarily transfers to the carrier and the fleet moves accordingly. After resupply, command reverts to original ship and previous orders resume.

Carriers are typically higher maintenance than normal fleet operations, so it does mean a few extra steps are needed for optimal automation.

At some point, maybe after additional input is added, I would like to include plans to make Automatic Resupply a result of Research.

Also, to the "This is X4 not a 4X" folks, I appreciate the input, and I understand, however this is strictly asking for a feature that would help management-challenged people like myself. Plus, I have yet to see this feature in any 4X game. So there's that.


Ship Points Determining when a fleet with attempt a resupply based on % of Points remaining. Ships within each class are given a "point" value.

• Interceptors/Scouts: 1 Point -|- Fighters: 5 Points -|- Heavy Fighters/Bombers: 10 Points -|- Corvettes: 15 Points -|- Frigates: 25 Points -|- Carriers: 50 Points -|- Battleships: 100 Points

When carriers have Fighters/Drones assigned to them, their points are not taken into consideration when determining fleet point count

Fleet Point System in Use
Fleet Consists of (2) Corvettes, (1) Frigate and (1) Battleship. Fleet Point total is 155. Player sets automatic resupply to 80%, or <124 Points.

• Scenario A: (1) Frigate is destroyed. Fleet points drop to 130. Fleet operations continue as normal.
  Scenario B: (1) Corvette and (1) Frigate is destroyed. Fleet points drop to 115. If enabled, automatic fleet resupply commands are initiated and the fleet behaves accordingly.

This should solve any questions about when fleets should resupply, as opposed to them doing it after every fight or after every loss).

Edit 1 Notes: Thank you to Crimsonraziel for input on the commands (as well as unintentionally reminding me to format) of resupply. I did, however, change the Prioritize to be an automatic function, as well as reduced player messaging to as-required-by-emergency only. I personally detested the dozens of messages I got in a short time period in X3 and XR.

Edit 2 Notes: The point values I tagged to each "class" (as we know it) of ships is 100% fluid, and not something I'm demanding be used in game. Of course, there's non-combat ships that would need to make use of the system as well.

I am going to retain a Changelog if i start making multiple changes to the OP, for my personal future reference or anyone's curiosity. I would like this to be as-much-as-possible a feature wanted by as many as possible.

[csaba]

I posted this back in Nov in a topic about repair ships:

I wanted to start a similar topic but since this covers most of the subjects I'll just post it here:



Using carriers as support/flagships:

Most people who have played X:R know how carriers especially the 'Sul' line of ships weren't really functioning as their description would let you imagine.

Furthermore with the quadrupling of weapon systems on XL (previously M2, M1, M0) ships, small S, M (M3-4-6) and even some L (M7s, M8s, TLs) sized ships became nothing more than cannonfodder. Drones were an answer to this as "cheaply", en mass deployable XS (M5) sized ships, they however still functioned as an expensive ammo type which required slow cumbersome restocking mechanics using either cargo ships or dockyards.

This meant that drones were only effective against the player and the Arawn (the only ship fitting the M1 class from previous games) was used as a slow moving fort and the Suls were useless as they seemingly traded hard points for a nonfunctioning role.

My idea is:

- Increase carrier fuel storage 100 times
- Carriers can distribute fuel with a teleporter device (no drones needed for fast refills)
- Increase carrier drone capacity compared to other capitals x10
- Carriers can restock other ship's drones (without docking with each other)
- Give carriers ware storage capacity
- Give carriers the ability to repair friendlies with drones. Ships and stations alike.
- Add repair nanites to wares.
- Repair drones consume repair nanites ware
- Limit self repair for ships and stations
- Add Supply restock mode to carriers that work how X:R CV's buy wares for stations
- Remove ware type for drones (production was funky, alternating between 10+ types)
- Add small(civilian), medium(cheap millitary) and large drone (exp. military) kits to wares
- Add an ability to carriers to assemble drone kits (+ a drone control module for stations to do the same)

This will achive:

- Smaller carriers (M7s) like X:R's Suls would be useful
- Drones are more easily replaced, production is more streamlined and you don't have to dock the ships (taking ages) to replace them, just use the restock mode
- The simplified production combined with the new map in X4 will make the use of drones for carriers more viable for the player
- Ships don't repair "magically", but you don't have to dock 10 ships one after the another to get the fleet repaired if you have a carrier
- No NPC station parts stupidly respawning from nothing
- Would give a good strategic target for the player to kill AI carriers
- repair nanites would make a very nice high demand ware for production (would be still more expensive than normal building materials though so they don't cause a logic issue when building stuff)

https://forum.egosoft.com/viewtopic.php ... sc&start=0

I don't mind if I have to rebuild ships manually. However I do think carriers need better roles than "more shields plus fighters".

[Nanook]

I voted no. The primary focus of all the X games has been to build a financial empire and protect it. That's the main purpose of having fleets. It has never been about building war fleets. While the game does allow for this kind of playstyle, I think this idea is best left to modders since most ships aren't really cookie-cutter copies of each other. This isn't an RTS, i.e., Homeworld.

[mr.WHO]

I'm kinda betwen yes and no.
The OP ideas is IMO overcomplicated.
Keep it as simple as possible to make effective use of carriers:


In X4 we need some effective way:
- define carrier behaviour (aggresive/attack, passive, stay away/run when attacked).
- define base fighters behaviours (e.g. this group for attack orders, this group for carrier defense, this for patrol)
- define way to fast resuply and restock pre-defined fighter compliment.

Everything else is covered by normal XR logic as well as X4 RTS GUI.

[csaba]

Everything else is covered by normal XR logic as well as X4 RTS GUI.

While XR captains (and defense officers) do have a Budget and restock settings. It is still less effective than having a carrier with a larger cargohold restock them with the already working cargolifter drones.

Simply increasing the cargo and fuel capacity of carriers and using the ware exchange script from Rebirth on a broadcast command would already do wonders.

[Requiemfang]

I'll be just as happy if carriers actually act like carriers and allow small and possibly a few medium sized ships can dock with them and carriers are actually carriers instead of DRONE carriers which is what they were in XR unless your using a specific mod in XR.

[Vandragorax]

I'm actually ok with carriers being 'drone carriers' because let's be honest, in that futuristic setting there'd be no way every single ship would be piloted manually (that's only popularised through fiction like Star Wars where they want you to be emotionally connected to every pilot/ship). In a real military situation, it WOULD all be drones

In that regard, it makes perfect sense for the carrier to contain some kind of production facility and raw materials to create replacements on-the-go.

This would actually open up some tactical possibilities such as disabling the drone command ship (carrier) and all the drones would probably go into some kind of failsafe mode and shut down, instead of trying to fight off all the drones plus reinforcements.

I'm really not a fan of having to re-stock hundreds of small ships constantly (with pilots?) when they are inevitably destroyed in service with a carrier. There definitely needs to be a quick and easy way to do this.

I do not agree with the post above that says ships in X games aren't "cookie-cutter"... have you ever bought 100 fighters and honestly equipped them all differently? I don't think so lol... it would be a mass purchase of identical ships just like everyone used to do in X3-AP.

[Commander_K]

It would also mean we could just jump into a drone and join the fun until it gets blown up, without any harm done to the player.

[Me163]

It seems like you want to play RTS :D

I don't see the point of auto-refill everything in everywhere with complicate commands.

Ofc it was boring as hell resupplying, arming all those fighters.
Maybe this can fixed by add something like presets but go back to shipyard/Equipment dock?
It's not that boring as i consider this a part of carrier management.

[mr.WHO]

@Me163: The problem is not carrier management, but carriers management.

There is no problem if you have one carrier, but will become chore when you have to constantly babysit 5+ carriers.

[csaba]

Drones were semi nice on capital ships the issue was that every last one had at least 150 capacity. Namely a Sul a dedicated carrier was just as much of a carrier than a Taranis which was a destroyer. Also carrier class ships had no bonuses to drone command as far as I can tell. Drones also had very low HP often dying in the dozens in capital vs capital showdowns while not contributing much to the battle.

Othervise they were only there to annoy the Skunk since focused fire by several 7 drone squads is quite nasty even with mk5 shields.

The CES mod has a really nice fix to this giving them shields. Which increases their survivability 10 fold since they don't just pop if a capital explodes in a 5 km radius. Also making them retarget after a kill instead of docking makes them 100 times more useful and actually making them worth the credits.

We already saw the Colossus launching actual fighters into battle on a stream but I think we will still get some smaller drone carrier ships.

[Requiemfang]

Also the problem with Drones in XR with carriers is that only a limited amount of the drones are launched, I think 5 or 10 and they don't launch anymore after that until those 1 or 2 waves are killed off.

[Commander_K]

Drones don't have to be small, they could be like fighters (also in behavior), just without the pilot. Just like it already is for the Xenon in XR.

[Crimsonraziel]

I'd like to see some "memory effect". Stations, fleets, carriers should remember what they lost, giving me the option to reorder the exact same configuration as replacement or ditch it entirely. As the station manager / fleet commander / captain gains more experience it should be possible to automate this process.
Options could be:

• never replace and forget about it / always replace / always ask / don't ask, I'll take care manually
• use specific shipyard / player owned only / restrict to factions / any ship yard
• preorize nearest shipyard / cheapest / shortest queue
• always inform me / never inform me / only if problems occur (insufficient funds e.g.)
• continue as usual / wait for replacement / meet replacement at shipyard

And there should be either be a budget for the fleet, similar to stations or the option to assign the fleet to a station that pays for it. In both cases we need the possibility to transfer profit from stations to fleets or other stations. Basically a group of stations should be able to fund their own sector defense without the player getting involved once it's set up (if desired)

Is similar to TonyEvan's idea, but no predefined "Norm". If anything geht's destroyed just remember what it was and it's setup including orders.

[Swiftbow]

Agree. No. Save for modders

[Gazz]

This would be a feature for a 4X game, not an X4 game.

Player-involvement has always been part of the game and when designing a game you have to set priorities like which scope of game the UI will be built for.
A spreadsheet game like MOO3 is great for managing fleets in great detail but it's not a strong selling point. =)

[TonyEvans]

Everyone here, thank you for your feedback!

To reply to a few guys...

@Nanook

I voted no. The primary focus of all the X games has been to build a financial empire and protect it. That's the main purpose of having fleets. It has never been about building war fleets. While the game does allow for this kind of playstyle, I think this idea is best left to modders since most ships aren't really cookie-cutter copies of each other. This isn't an RTS, i.e., Homeworld.

I do and don't agree. Whilst yes, the focus is empire building and protecting it, it can just as much be about war as other RTS games go. XR was about building an empire, but for me (and imaginably many others) it was to gain production chain independence, so we could wipe out the other factions we didn't like. Even if you lean more empire through trade, I may lean chaos through destruction.

@mr.WHO

The OP ideas is IMO overcomplicated.

I definitely see how this could be the case. Partially, because I typed it after going about 20hrs no sleep, and also because I'm terrible when it comes to formatting. That said, I could be wrong and it's complicated for other reasons.

The image I had in my head for this feature was, at most, a couple steps.
Creating the fleet would be the same as it was for X3 and kinda for XR (assigning ships to their superiors, designating Fleet Commander in X3, etc).
Once done, a button pops up with "Fleet Replenishment Options", with 2 drop-downs.

The first, being Where/If the fleet is automatically replenished from, and the second being fleet behavior whilst fleet replenishment is underway. The biggest, most complicated step would just be understanding the behaviors from both. Once that's down, setup is easy. Carriers would function the same way, except with a button for "Fighter Replenishment Options."

I hope that clears up my intentions for the features with others, as well.


@BlackDemon

carrier to contain some kind of production facility and raw materials to create replacements on-the-go

I did have a thought about this, as well. A "raw scrap" collection system and capacity with onboard production ability. Create basic-level drones (not as good as factory-produced), but of some assistance if operating far from resupply lines.

@Me163

It seems like you want to play RTS

Wasn't there a stream a while back that either implied or even outright stated that we could, in fact, play X4 as a RTS? I'd have to do some rewatching.

@Crimsonraziel

Too much to quote, tbh)

Love it. There is talk of "research" routes we can go down. This could very much be one of the branches of the trees. "Empire Resupply Management" or something, with better.

Also, why does your list of options seem so much better and easier than mine. I'll just draft future ideas to you for cleanup.


@Gazz

Player-involvement has always been part of the game and when designing a game

The level of player involvement is something in constant flux. Early on, you're focusing on one Trader for a while. And then 2 or 3. Once those profit enough, they can become automated and they're no longer your focus. Instead, your new station is as you manage its supply routes. Then you have multiple stations whilst the one just runs on its own automated process. Eventually, all of Trading and Station Supply is automated.

That's all for trading, but no such system has ever existed for Combat, apart from stations being able to resupply their Drones through trade orders.

[Seanchaidh]

My inclination is: automatic, no, as easy as possible, yes.

[Gazz]

That's all for trading, but no such system has ever existed for Combat, apart from stations being able to resupply their Drones through trade orders.

ST/UT are so good they essentially break the game.
You're rolling in practically infinite funds while they repair and refuel themselves.

The real question is not if combat should be improved but... what is the overall design?
What is the scope, the level of detail and micromanagement?

A modder wrote the ST/UT and greatly skewed the balance.
I'm not saying modders shouldn't mod (and it wouldn't work if I did ;) but when designing a game "wouldn't it be cool if" is a dangerous question if you're not also keeping an eye on the design goals.
Is a credits-fountain part of the design?

[gbjbaanb]

Maybe the optimal approach is to allow carriers and docks to have their repair bays, and to automatically repair ships that dock with them - including the station's fighter wing.

you're not going full homeworld with auto replenishment of new fighters, or new capital ships, and repairs of capships still need to be manually triggered (as I suppose they'd take some time in drydock and maybe the player doesn't want his ship out of service at that time).

Capships to auto repair slowly would be nice - if only to deal with the niggle of repairing slightly damaged ships. You don't want the micromanagement of such small repairs, only the bigger damaged ones.

but fighters was always the issue around fleets. That's where the annoying micro comes from, so even if you stocked your carrier with a rag tag bunch of salvaged and 2nd hand fighters (as I used to do) then they'd continue to be repaired and in service for as long as you had stock of spare parts, and you could replenish them manually (or with a command on a shipyard to deliver x fighters to a station) that would auto-refill the fighter wing of a carrier when it docked.