Russian poisoning

Morkonan · Post by **Morkonan** » Wed, 11. Apr 18, 21:06

fiksal wrote:...It does add something to talk about. My Russian side certainly comes out more often in conversation than my American.

I once lived where I had a Russo-American neighbor. His family had immigrated, I think, during the Cold War. He was an interpreter, worked in Intel, I think. Because of that, I really didn't ask him a lot of questions about Russian stuffs.

That's something worth bringing up - I've lived with or had neighbors or friends that have all sorts of cultural backgrounds. I mean... from everyone all over the planet! Where I live now, we have all sorts of parades celebrating different cultures. People get together and have these huge cultural food-fests, arts and crafts, music, yada yada.. There are games, mini-marathons, "walks", cultural center openings, special exhibits, cultural dress celebrations, etc..

And, there's an American flag flying over all of them.

Why in the F do some people get so friggin worked up about some other American's family heritage? There are probably five families within a stone's throw of me that have rich cultural heritages that lie outside of the US, but they're all happy Americans, go to work, pay their bills, smile and wave when I drive by... nice people.

And, we've got a leader who was elected partially because he's pointing at these other Americans and saying they're a threat? I'd happily rather stand by some Sikhs or Russians or Pakistanis or Chinese or Korean or German or Black/Brown/Yellow/Purple "Americans" and call them "brother" than to stand by him and call him a "man."

/sigh

Canada is looking pretty good about now. Then again, they probably have their own petty issues, too.

Anyway, enough of the OT rant.

The poisoning was bad.

It was likely "revenge" motivated and conducted by Russian operatives, probably with direct Putin approval, since it took place within the borders of a sovereign nation.

Yet, how are some additional "sanctions" going to do anything to prevent this sort of thing in the future? Sanctions haven't worked and Putin appears to still have broad support, which could even be due to things like sanctions... It's all a win/win for Putin and his machine.

felter · Post by **felter** » Thu, 5. Jul 18, 02:01

So it looks like the Novichok nerve agent has struck again.

Observe · Post by **Observe** » Thu, 5. Jul 18, 02:14

felter wrote:So it looks like the Novichok nerve agent has struck again.

What the hell is going on and is it even Russia involved?

RegisterMe · Post by **RegisterMe** » Thu, 5. Jul 18, 02:44

Observe wrote:
felter wrote:So it looks like the Novichok nerve agent has struck again.
What the hell is going on and is it even Russia involved?

Yeah, very odd. Not sure what to make of it at the moment but I guess we let the dust (?) settle before jumping to any conclusions.

Observe · Post by **Observe** » Thu, 5. Jul 18, 04:47

ON the Eve of the NATO summit no less.

silenced · Post by **silenced** » Thu, 5. Jul 18, 06:33

I think it's about time that Porton Down is stripped and controlled. That thing is too close to both incidents.

Although, this time I'm willing to say: it may have been the Russians, it would be a smart move with certain points of view, but then again, a move everyone would think of it may have been the Russians, again.

Stupid crazy world. =)

I almost think someone wants to tell the world: Look, you stupid idiots, we got the stuff, we can produce more of it, be aware of a new type of terroristic warfare.

Would not surprise me by the way.

Observe · Post by **Observe** » Thu, 5. Jul 18, 06:38

If it's not Russia, then who else gains by pointing the finger with possibility of strengthening NATO? Ukraine? Or am I just talking BS with that idea?

silenced · Post by **silenced** » Thu, 5. Jul 18, 06:45

There are other powers that have a huge interest in destabilizing our 'western' world.

Remember Kennedy? There are rumors Israel was involved ...

Post by **Tamina** » Thu, 5. Jul 18, 08:34

Observe wrote:If it's not Russia, then who else gains by pointing the finger with possibility of strengthening NATO? Ukraine? Or am I just talking BS with that idea?

Turn the question around. List all the countries that do not benefit from this in any way. It is always a matter of what you want to accomplish and are willing to pay for it.

In this case it sounds more like they got in contact with the disposed nerve agent by accident. Remember that it is not necessarily a gas but could also be in powder or liquid form.
The media also indicates they could be drug addicts. I guess inhaling strange unknown substances is daily business for them.

pjknibbs · Post by **pjknibbs** » Thu, 5. Jul 18, 09:09

Tamina wrote: In this case it sounds more like they got in contact with the disposed nerve agent by accident.

Or, it could be a Russian attempt to "prove" the Skripal attack wasn't them, because some random pair has been hit with the same substance? We'll have to see how this unfolds.

muppetts · Post by **muppetts** » Thu, 5. Jul 18, 09:47

They are not drug addicts, the people who initially found them in that state 'thought' it was drugs, which either booze or drugs would be a normal assumption.

'Oh look at that man, disgusting!'
'Yep been on the Novo dust again!'

This agent is only available in one place in the world, so either it is Russia or they sold it someone.

But lets be honest here, Putin put a hit on a traitor to Russia, same as he has done before, not really that complex.

UK will do what it always does with Russia, act like the little bitchez our government are. Russia owns us, they own our gas requirements, they know it, we know it and if they double the price of gas or turn off the pumps, we are in royal fking trouble.

God forbid we develop an energy strategy that does not completely compromise us with a supplier, that would be waaay to smart.

ATTACK_HAMSTER · Post by **ATTACK_HAMSTER** » Thu, 5. Jul 18, 11:20

muppetts wrote: UK will do what it always does with Russia, act like the little bitchez our government are. Russia owns us, they own our gas requirements, they know it, we know it and if they double the price of gas or turn off the pumps, we are in royal fking trouble.

God forbid we develop an energy strategy that does not completely compromise us with a supplier, that would be waaay to smart.

The UK apparently gets about 1-2% of our gas from Russia, so based on that information i don't think we are in that much trouble. If Qatar gets arsey we will be screwed.

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-43421431

"We estimate less than 1% of our gas comes from Russia and are in no way reliant on it"

The Germans however get a significant amount of their gas from Russia through the Nord Stream pipeline, which is soon to be expanded upon with Nord Stream 2 and i assume most of Western Europe will get their supplies this way.

Bishop149 · Post by **Bishop149** » Thu, 5. Jul 18, 12:57

silenced wrote:I think it's about time that Porton Down is stripped and controlled. That thing is too close to both incidents.

As someone who has had direct contact with that institution let me tell you, it is.
They are called OPCW inspections and were conducted pretty regularly. Take any type of audit you may have experienced and intensify by about 100-fold and you’ll have a good idea what an OPCW inspection feels like.
Portion Down is THE facility in the UK for this stuff and is a major focus of regulatory attention. If the UK government or anyone else wanted to deploy a nerve agent using Portons facilities to do so would be an act of INCREDIBLE stupidity, chances of being found out would be 100%. Similar facilities could be found in any University chemistry lab. Which leads on to the next point.
Porton is a laboratory not a chemical plant, it’s supplies and facilities are not suited to production on any kind of scale. Chemical plants that ARE and that buy certain chemicals in quantity are also subject to inspection
Down the road from Porton however is a public health England facility which is actually licensed for the large scale production of a biochemical weapon. One called Botulinum Toxin which apparently vain people like to inject it into their faces.

I hear that their OPCW inspections make Portons look lax.

In addition to the regular inspections any signatory to the CWC can request inspection of any facility of any other signatory at any time with near zero notice. This almost never happens but I imagine it might now. Wouldn’t be surprised if the UK and Russia both did it tit for tat.

Morkonan · Post by **Morkonan** » Thu, 5. Jul 18, 16:22

Observe wrote:If it's not Russia, then who else gains by pointing the finger with possibility of strengthening NATO? Ukraine? Or am I just talking BS with that idea?

Ukraine wouldn't gain anything out of this. NATO has long had an informal relationships with Ukraine, conducting some joint exercises, some cooperation, etc.. Just enough to keep Russia thinking. Ukraine never exhibited a huge push in interest towards NATO membership status. EU membership/further integration, however, is a different story.

Ukraine is in a truly weird position. They've been riding the fence for years, playing all sides. And, how'd that work out for them?

As was pointed out, this event so close to the NATO summit raises certain questions. This kind of stuff just doesn't happen accidentally involving random civilians. If some researcher ended up dead in his garage, that's one thing. A couple of random people getting exposed and nobody else?

So far, AFAIK, nobody has directly commented on any possible signatures showing this has similar characteristics (or, more likely, very close to exact) as the previous material that was found. If it does, I don't think there's any doubt, at least as far as who is ultimately responsible.

I don't see how this can be some sort of secondary, tertiary, fallout from the original appearance of this agent in the UK. IOW, I don't see how they could have just accidentally stepped into this stuff as "leftovers" on the sidewalk.

As for the UK being responsible, itself, that's just not very likely. IF these people were related to any laboratory agency, then maybe. I could see research being stepped up, thanks to the original appearance of this agent. But, Russia is making "false-flag" claims, here, and that's just not sensible.

RegisterMe · Post by **RegisterMe** » Thu, 5. Jul 18, 17:05

Home Secretary comment from earlier today "The home secretary said he was "comfortable" the "exact same nerve agent" had been used in both the Salisbury and Amesbury poisonings - but added it was not yet known they were from the same batch".

From this link - https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-44721558

Post by **radcapricorn** » Thu, 5. Jul 18, 19:47

muppetts wrote:This agent is only available in one place in the world, so either it is Russia or they sold it someone.

Uh-huh, and then somehow the Porton Down had a control sample as well... You do realize that the creator of that substance doesn't even live in Russia?

But lets be honest here, Putin put a hit on a traitor to Russia, same as he has done before, not really that complex.

A "hit"? With a nerve agent? You watch too many cheesy spy movies. If our CI wanted someone dead, they'd be dead, end of story. Employing a nerve agent that apparently may not work, has quite obvious history and is easily traceable would've been the dumbest "hit" in the history of "hits". Get real.

This sort of reasoning reeks of "highly likely" propaganda BS. People, please use your head, not tabloids.

Hank001 · Post by **Hank001** » Thu, 5. Jul 18, 20:02

After reading the UK news I'm thinking that this might be recontamination from from the first incident as the police there seem to think:

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-4472719

Testing every possible comtamination point.... Hardly possible. Well that and depending on manufacture the Lethal Level Persistance of Novichok from the chemistry could be as high as 3 to 5 years.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Novichok_agent

https://www.sciencedirect.com/topics/ne ... chok-agent

https://www.independent.co.uk/news/scie ... 33166.html

One thing I can say. Whomever is using this chemical agent in the manner they did KNOWS that there will collateral damage. I ask only rhetorically why not just shoot their targets in the traditional manner? Becase this way sends out a message and actually killing the targets wasn't the point. The message was the point. Or rather messages. Message one was to Skripal (Of course) but message two was, "If you harbour traitors you will suffer too".

Observe · Post by **Observe** » Thu, 5. Jul 18, 20:18

I've read that no one besides the Russians know how to make Novichok. That in itself seems a bit dubious, but even then, I wonder how many of their people know the secret and are they all accounted for (we wouldn't know of course)? Is it possible that some rogue scientist is making this stuff for someone besides the Russians?

Hank001 · Post by **Hank001** » Thu, 5. Jul 18, 20:28

Observe said:

I've read that no one besides the Russians know how to make Novichok

You combine several Russian household products (which would not normally come into contact with each other) using some special gear and bang, you have Novichok. That much the CIA let out after the Skripal attempt. Since the link I posted above shows the compound, yes a place like Porton Down could most likely whip up a batch in no time.

Post by **radcapricorn** » Thu, 5. Jul 18, 20:58

Oh my goodness, guys, why does it have to be a conspiracy?

"Message one, message two, if you harbor traitors, blah-blah" - if we needed Skripal dead, he won't have been pardoned and let go live where he wanted in the first place. It amazes me how people come up with all sorts of spooky fantasies out of nowhere.

Occam's razor, people. Some numb-nut, "highly likely" in UK, less likely elsewhere (transportation would be iffy) is selling or otherwise playing with the stuff. Out of grievances, for personal gain, to manifest personal sociopathy?.. That is literally the simplest explanation.

Scratch that, simpler one would be UK using what they have at Porton Down for some obscure political agenda, but that would be going back into conspi-retard territory.

Then again, Porton Down is exactly how far from both locations? As opposed to Russia?

Russophobia is being actively marketed and on the rise since late 2013. We're at a point where if mr. Not-Russian-Name-At-All Johnson farts, it'd be declared "highly likely" a Russian nerve gas. If there are any messages at all here, it's that the West lost all need to have reasons to blame Russia for anything.

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Russian poisoning