Russian poisoning

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Post by Nanook » Wed, 4. Apr 18, 21:46

JSDD wrote:
pjknibbs wrote:... since they didn't seem inclined to do anything about Russia's blatant meddling in the American elections.
is there a law that says that this is probibited?...
U.S, election laws prohibit fraudulent activity. The Russians were proven to have committed such fraud by pretending to be US citizens while promoting the election of Trump and others through various electioneering activities. In order for foreign nationals to attempt to influence elections, they must declare themselves as such and be subject to various restrictions on their activities. By not doing so, they committed a number of felonies over the course of the elections. So, yes, there are laws that say it's prohibited.
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Post by Len5 » Thu, 5. Apr 18, 00:12

So the elections were approaching, Putin let someone, he wanted dead anyway, kill with a nerve agent that clearly leads to Russia.
Putin knew the West would blame Russia and because he erased all traces he could deny it and play the victim.
"You see, the West blames us without any proof and someone wants to make it look like we did it, they're all against us. Vote for me. I'll make glorious nation of Russia."

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Post by felter » Thu, 5. Apr 18, 16:11

So Russian television Rossiya 1 which is owned by no other than the Russian government which really means Putin is the real owner. Anyway they said they had a recording of a phone conversation between Yulia Skripal and her cousin; The conversation goes:
Viktoria: Hello?
Alleged Yulia: Hello. Do you hear me?
Viktoria: Yes, I hear you.
Alleged Yulia: It is Yulia Skripal.
Viktoria: Oh, Yulka [diminutive of Yulia] it is you! I recognise from your voice that it is you but cannot understand. So, they gave you a telephone, didn't they?
Alleged Yulia: Yes, yes.
Viktoria: Thanks God! Yulyash [diminutive of Yulia], is everything okay with you?
Alleged Yulia: Everything is ok, everything is fine.
Viktoria: Look, if tomorrow I get a (British) visa, I will come to you on Monday.
Alleged Yulia: Vika, no-one will give you the visa.
Viktoria: Well I thought so too. Oh well.
Alleged Yulia: Most likely.
Viktoria: If they give it, I need you to tell me whether I can visit you or not, tell me that I can.
Alleged Yulia: I think no, there is such a situation now, we'll sort it out later.
Viktoria: I know it, I know it all.
Alleged Yulia: Later, we will get it sorted later, everything's fine, we'll see later.
Viktoria: Is it your phone?
Alleged Yulia: It is a temporary phone. Everything is fine, but we'll see how it goes, we'll decide later. You know what the situation is here. Everything is fine, everything is solvable, everyone (he and her father) is recovering and is alive.
Viktoria: Clear! Is everything ok with your father?
Alleged Yulia: Everything is ok. He is resting now, having a sleep. Everyone's health is fine, there are no irreparable things. I will be discharged soon. Everything is ok.
Viktoria: Kisses, my bunny.
Alleged Yulia: Bye.
I have a couple of things about the phone call. Have you ever phoned your cousin and had to use your surname to let them know who you are, I've never had to, I may go hey Richard it's John and he would know exactly who he was talking too. Then the conversation itself is so cardboard for someone who has just about died talking to a family member, who they must be pretty close to for them to phone them. There is no real concern at all, there is no real detail about how they are doing or feeling or even how her father is doing. they actually seem to be more concerned about how they got a hold of a phone than anything else. And it is so friggin short.

I suppose one of the main questions though is, how did they get a hold of a phone conversation in the first place, let alone one that had just been made just a couple of hours earlier.

To me it's as fake as they come.
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Post by fiksal » Fri, 6. Apr 18, 07:01

Morkonan wrote: "You are making a big mistake, so I will eat this cookie for you so you can't have it and you won't end up with diabeetus..."
Going to steal that analogy now :)
felter wrote: To me it's as fake as they come.
If you have to give someone your last name, that person doesnt know you or your voice.

What's the point of recording anyway? Implicate the cousin?

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Post by Morkonan » Sat, 7. Apr 18, 00:43

felter wrote:So Russian television Rossiya 1 which is owned by no other than the Russian government which really means Putin is the real owner. Anyway they said they had a recording of a phone conversation between Yulia Skripal and her cousin; The conversation goes:...

I have a couple of things about the phone call. Have you ever phoned your cousin and had to use your surname to let them know who you are, I've never had to, I may go hey Richard it's John and he would know exactly who he was talking too.
For the record, I don't believe this is a true recording of such a conversation, just given the source.

However, there are things in spoken Russian that deviate from common English convention and I know one of them is how surnames, diminutives, as you point out, and other proper-name things are used. I can't remember if you're Russian or Eastern European or not. My sincere apologies for that, I should be more attentive to such things.

If you are fluent in conversational Russian, then I accept your analysis regarding their conversational use of surnames. If not, I would certainly like a fluent forum-member to comment on that conversation.
Then the conversation itself is so cardboard for someone who has just about died talking to a family member, who they must be pretty close to for them to phone them. There is no real concern at all, there is no real detail about how they are doing or feeling or even how her father is doing. they actually seem to be more concerned about how they got a hold of a phone than anything else. And it is so friggin short.
Yeah, it doesn't seem natural at all, regardless of any language differences. I can see how someone may be surprised that, given the sensitive nature of the political situation, that a key civilian "player" would be "allowed" to make an "unrestricted call." That is something I could imagine someone else might question. ie: If it was a friend or relative of mine, I might say "I'm surprised they're not asking or requiring restricting your communications right now, at least a little bit, given how tense things may be. Have they said anything to you about that?"

In fact, I'd be surprised if she hasn't been advised to lay low right now and stay out of the public eye. Then again, the last I heard of her condition, she wasn't in any condition to talk to anyone. That's another reason why I don't really think this is legit. And, if she'd call her cousin after all this, surrounded by all this, I agree it'd be assumed they were close enough that she wouldn't announce herself.
I suppose one of the main questions though is, how did they get a hold of a phone conversation in the first place, let alone one that had just been made just a couple of hours earlier.

To me it's as fake as they come.
It's an expression of power and authority - "We know all and see all, thus we are in control of the situation and you should be confident about us being in control of this situation."

No government, even in a "free society," will willingly express its lack of control over a situation. In fact, they'll often claim a measure of control or knowledge just to calm and reassure the public, even if they don't really have any clue what's going on. :)

"WTF just happened?"

"I dunno, but we had better tell everyone we're already working on a solution!"

"We have top people working on the situation, right now. Rest assured, we know about what is going on and are working on the issue right now."

Said everyone, anywhere, at any time there was any doubt about the legitimacy of their oversight or control over... anything.

I bet everyone's ISP or even common utility provider has made a similar statement whenever something "goes wrong." OR... they deny anything is wrong at all. :)

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Post by fiksal » Sat, 7. Apr 18, 19:40

Morkonan wrote: If you are fluent in conversational Russian, then I accept your analysis regarding their conversational use of surnames. If not, I would certainly like a fluent forum-member to comment on that conversation.
I didnt hear the recording, but to the question of the surnames, - Russians only use them in conversation with people who dont know them, as you'd expect.

As in, I'd introduce myself with my last name and first name when speak to someone for the first time on a phone.

It is also polite to address someone by their first and "second" name, which you'd do with people who are much older than you.

From the quote above it seems neither.

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Post by Morkonan » Sun, 8. Apr 18, 02:57

fiksal wrote:..It is also polite to address someone by their first and "second" name, which you'd do with people who are much older than you.
Ah! That explains some conversations I've heard and wondered about! Thanks!
From the quote above it seems neither.
Many thanks for your expert opinion!

A likely unrelated question, but I'd like to know - Would a Russian use the diminutive of their own name when calling someone? ie: A 'Murican might say "Hello Jim, this is Bob." With "Jim" being the diminutive of "James", usually, and "Bob" being the diminutive of "Robert." Or, would a Russian calling a friend introduce themselves with their proper first name, as in "James" and the receiver of the call using the more friendly and intimate diminutive "Bob." In which case, one assumes, the friend would respond, "Hello, Jim, how are you" or something like that.

There are bunches of movies with Russian language in them and I've always had trouble understanding when its appropriate to use diminutives. They certainly seem, at least in these sorts of films, to be reserved almost exclusively for close friends or in intimate or emotional situations.

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Post by fiksal » Tue, 10. Apr 18, 05:59

Morkonan wrote:Many thanks for your expert opinion!
np )

I started writting the response, then I realized... my terminology is lacking... at least I am running out of words to define all the variations of names.

Thinking about my name and few others, and without proper terms, lets go with - Russian versions of names by fiksal:

1) proper / full first name
2) commonly shortened version
3) uncommon short (if exists)
4) modified / familiar / street (if exists)
5) close / family (if different from (2))
6) diminutive / family (if exists)

My first name has: (1), several (4), (5), and (6)
Morkonan wrote:
A likely unrelated question, but I'd like to know - Would a Russian use the diminutive of their own name when calling someone?
(6) Diminutive versions are very informal. Most commonly they'd be used around family only.

(5) the 'close / family' version can extend to very close friends.



Morkonan wrote:
Or, would a Russian calling a friend introduce themselves with their proper first name, as in "James" and the receiver of the call using the more friendly and intimate diminutive "Bob." In which case, one assumes, the friend would respond, "Hello, Jim, how are you" or something like that.
For men introductions are almost always non diminutive versions, if you arent going with polite version (of first name + second name) - it's usually (1) proper full name.

For those who have it commonly would switch to (2) version of names, the shortened, after initial introduction.

Women could potentially switch to calling someone recently met by a (5) 'close/family' name, but I think in practice that is on case by case / name by name basis and age dependent as well. Some names are also more prone to be turned to (5) than others.

By the way, in the example above, "Yulka" would be one (6) diminutive version or (5) family version of that name, for someone that is very familiar with the person. Cant use it for the person you just met, and not everyone may even like you to.
"Yul i a" with a longer "i" would be (1) version, proper
"Yulia" with short "i" would be (2), common short

Morkonan wrote: There are bunches of movies with Russian language in them and I've always had trouble understanding when its appropriate to use diminutives. They certainly seem, at least in these sorts of films, to be reserved almost exclusively for close friends or in intimate or emotional situations.
Yep, that's about right.

I dont use diminutive names almost at all. With women I can switch to their (2) shortened name, but I dont consider that a diminutive name.

With guy friends, we never use diminutive names, and we also go by (2) shortened or (3) uncommon, or near slang modified (4). I personally avoid (4) though. My name is prone to alternatives, so, my friends included, use other various forms of my name and almost never the full/proper one.

Same with girl friends for me. The other way around, I've heard the (5) family or (6) diminutive version of my name from some of them before, but it's rare, and usually in specific context.

Then within my family I am exclusively referred to as (5) family version.




This maybe a longer reply that you needed.

In short though, if we just concentrate on the (1) versus (2), the shortened version, then you could switch to it, if you are same age or who you are talking to if way younger and you want to be friendlier. If being friendly is inappropriate - then you dont.

You can never really do it with someone older than you.

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Post by Morkonan » Tue, 10. Apr 18, 06:55

fiksal wrote:....This maybe a longer reply that you needed.
...
NO!

This is "internet gold" to me! I love this stuff! Your responses were awesome and extremely informative! Why wouldn't I love every bit of it? It's about daily practices in a culture and in a language I'm unfamiliar with, so it's wonderful stuff!

Now, when Russia finally conquers the US by buying it outright from Amazon using hacked Bitcoins, I will know how to properly address our blockchain overlords...

Yeah, I know, I sound overly excited. But, darn, that's what "learning" is all about, right? I should be excited to get such privileged and personal information related directly to me in response to my questions. This is why open, multinational communities, are "good" and why closed, echo-chamber, communities are "bad."

It's like engaging a professional consultant, except I didn't have to pay anyone! In consideration for your wonderful reply, a... funny dog pic as "payment." Funny dog pic I didn't want to have to resize

:)

When addressing people in 'Murican, it's customary to address friends using derogatory references. "Hey, @$%#head, how's it hanging, you @$$% slobbering @$%$puncher!" But, only "close friends." Addressing anyone else in such a manner is why we have the Second Amendment, which allows us to carry firearms... Uh, so, maybe just don't use that until you're really sure they're a close 'Murican friend. :)

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Post by pjknibbs » Tue, 10. Apr 18, 09:39

It's reported that Yulia Skripal is being discharged from hospital (or already has been yesterday, it's a bit unclear which), and it's also said that she's likely to apply for political asylum rather than returning to Russia...can't really blame her!

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Post by fiksal » Wed, 11. Apr 18, 02:31

pjknibbs wrote:It's reported that Yulia Skripal is being discharged from hospital (or already has been yesterday, it's a bit unclear which), and it's also said that she's likely to apply for political asylum rather than returning to Russia...can't really blame her!
Have I misread earlier and they are both recovering? What of all the bystanders?



Morkonan wrote: This is "internet gold" to me! I love this stuff! Your responses were awesome and extremely informative! Why wouldn't I love every bit of it? It's about daily practices in a culture and in a language I'm unfamiliar with, so it's wonderful stuff!
Glad to help,

Funny dog, accepted!
Morkonan wrote: When addressing people in 'Murican, it's customary to address friends using derogatory references. "Hey, @$%#head, how's it hanging, you @$$% slobbering @$%$puncher!" But, only "close friends." Addressing anyone else in such a manner is why we have the Second Amendment, which allows us to carry firearms... Uh, so, maybe just don't use that until you're really sure they're a close 'Murican friend. :)
I have noticed that actually, and that was a bit of a shocker. At first I expected in reply - "what did you say to me?"

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Post by Morkonan » Wed, 11. Apr 18, 04:37

pjknibbs wrote:It's reported that Yulia Skripal is being discharged from hospital (or already has been yesterday, it's a bit unclear which), and it's also said that she's likely to apply for political asylum rather than returning to Russia...can't really blame her!
I think she could easily be granted asylum as it's largely already proven she's "allergic" to Russia. (Imagine having to do that, to leave your family, friends, familiar home, all your stuffs... because of what amounts to a Cold War grudge against your father. Pretty darn sad, really.)
fiksal wrote:I have noticed that actually, and that was a bit of a shocker. At first I expected in reply - "what did you say to me?"
:)

It's weird, though. In the "South" it's not as widely accepted an informal greeting. But, it may be accepted if it was sort of "silly" and not immediately derogatory. "Hi jerkieboy, what's up?" Not really an insult, just a playful word. But, from a Southerner's point of view, the word might be much more crude and derogatory, as I expressed earlier. But, both would be received the same way. (By close friends) In fact, come to think of it, the Northern friends I've had are the ones to introduce that more coarse greeting in our circles and find it much easier to use than the Southerners do.

Anyway, we're all human and we have this "culture" thing we insist on dragging around with us. It may differ, place to place, but at least there's always some sort of interesting culture going on.

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Post by pjknibbs » Wed, 11. Apr 18, 08:32

fiksal wrote: Have I misread earlier and they are both recovering? What of all the bystanders?
They're both recovering, yes--the elder Skripal is still in hospital but he's apparently been awake and communicating for a while now. The only "bystander" who was seriously enough affected to land in hospital himself was a policeman who attended the scene, and he was only in for a few days, AFAIK.

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Post by Bishop149 » Wed, 11. Apr 18, 12:57

There is a whole bunch of reporting along the lines of "miraculous recoveries" and "incredible medical care"
These all makes for very nice headlines but are simply not true. There is no reason at all that a person who survives poisoning by nerve agent wouldn't be expected to make a near full recovery.

Nerve agents function by shutting down the proper function of neuromuscular junctions, this causes a whole bunch of acute effects that can kill or injure the affected person, primarily paralysis preventing breathing. But they are ACUTE effects, no long lasting damage is done to the affected cells and if the person manages to survives them they will likely be fine.
The treatment is utterly standard, maintain breathing by artificial respiration and treat with drugs* that help flush the agent from the patients system.

*Ironically many of these drugs work in a very similar way to the nerve agent, they bind to the same receptors and can cause the same problem but they bind with greater affinity than the nerve agent and don't do so for as long. You are essentially replacing a very nasty poisoning with a far milder version. When I worked in this field we had quite a problem with soldiers being a little trigger happy with their epipens as soon as they smelt something funny and ending up with atropine poisoning. :roll:
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Post by fiksal » Wed, 11. Apr 18, 18:07

pjknibbs wrote:
fiksal wrote: Have I misread earlier and they are both recovering? What of all the bystanders?
They're both recovering, yes--the elder Skripal is still in hospital but he's apparently been awake and communicating for a while now. The only "bystander" who was seriously enough affected to land in hospital himself was a policeman who attended the scene, and he was only in for a few days, AFAIK.
Ah okay.

Interesting though, isnt the poison supposed to be quite lethal? Something went wrong apparently, or British doctors are too good.

Morkonan wrote: It's weird, though. In the "South" it's not as widely accepted an informal greeting.
I actually lived in both south and north of US too, and you are right, southerners dont go for it.

Morkonan wrote: Anyway, we're all human and we have this "culture" thing we insist on dragging around with us. It may differ, place to place, but at least there's always some sort of interesting culture going on.
It does add something to talk about. My Russian side certainly comes out more often in conversation than my American.

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Post by Morkonan » Wed, 11. Apr 18, 21:06

fiksal wrote:...It does add something to talk about. My Russian side certainly comes out more often in conversation than my American.
I once lived where I had a Russo-American neighbor. His family had immigrated, I think, during the Cold War. He was an interpreter, worked in Intel, I think. Because of that, I really didn't ask him a lot of questions about Russian stuffs.

That's something worth bringing up - I've lived with or had neighbors or friends that have all sorts of cultural backgrounds. I mean... from everyone all over the planet! Where I live now, we have all sorts of parades celebrating different cultures. People get together and have these huge cultural food-fests, arts and crafts, music, yada yada.. There are games, mini-marathons, "walks", cultural center openings, special exhibits, cultural dress celebrations, etc..

And, there's an American flag flying over all of them.

Why in the F do some people get so friggin worked up about some other American's family heritage? There are probably five families within a stone's throw of me that have rich cultural heritages that lie outside of the US, but they're all happy Americans, go to work, pay their bills, smile and wave when I drive by... nice people.

And, we've got a leader who was elected partially because he's pointing at these other Americans and saying they're a threat? I'd happily rather stand by some Sikhs or Russians or Pakistanis or Chinese or Korean or German or Black/Brown/Yellow/Purple "Americans" and call them "brother" than to stand by him and call him a "man."

/sigh

Canada is looking pretty good about now. Then again, they probably have their own petty issues, too.

Anyway, enough of the OT rant.

The poisoning was bad.

It was likely "revenge" motivated and conducted by Russian operatives, probably with direct Putin approval, since it took place within the borders of a sovereign nation.

Yet, how are some additional "sanctions" going to do anything to prevent this sort of thing in the future? Sanctions haven't worked and Putin appears to still have broad support, which could even be due to things like sanctions... It's all a win/win for Putin and his machine.

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Post by felter » Thu, 5. Jul 18, 02:01

So it looks like the Novichok nerve agent has struck again.
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Post by Observe » Thu, 5. Jul 18, 02:14

felter wrote:So it looks like the Novichok nerve agent has struck again.
What the hell is going on and is it even Russia involved?

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Post by RegisterMe » Thu, 5. Jul 18, 02:44

Observe wrote:
felter wrote:So it looks like the Novichok nerve agent has struck again.
What the hell is going on and is it even Russia involved?
Yeah, very odd. Not sure what to make of it at the moment but I guess we let the dust (?) settle before jumping to any conclusions.
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Post by Observe » Thu, 5. Jul 18, 04:47

ON the Eve of the NATO summit no less.

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