Jumpdrives got me into X3, highways just dropped me off XR, and we're legion

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ZaphodBeeblebrox
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Post by ZaphodBeeblebrox » Sun, 1. Jul 18, 08:16

gbjbaanb wrote:
If you tick off the Argons and jump a fleet in, the Argons will use their own fleets and static defences to blow you to little bits.
This may have been true of X3, but the Argons are no longer a single entity.
They no longer have race response fleets or any other magically produced defenders. Each faction will have fleets but they have to move to defend an enemy action, if they are destroyed then replacements have to be built. This requires resources and friendly shipyards.

So you want to attack an Argon faction, you can plan ahead and first of all cripple their supply lines. Reduce the resources actually getting to shipyards. This should work properly in X4 as everything is built out of the underlying economy.

Attack/cap their trade ships and steal those resources for yourself. Thus reducing their trade fleet and their ability to build more.

When you move to attack you know that the enemy cannot just jump in reinforcements. This gives you time to wage a war of attrition.
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Post by Sparky Sparkycorp » Sun, 1. Jul 18, 09:04

Graaf wrote:
linolafett wrote:
Imagine to fly f.e. from Kingdom End to Queen's Harbour... once maybe fun, twice not really, later just annoying.
You will not need to fly for an hour straight. Thats what the travel drive is good for. An argument for the highways, too.
You still have to fly through 26 systems to get to your destination. That gives you an average of 138 sezuras for every system. If you're flying the stock Mercury at 100m/s, it would give you about 13,8km per system. That is barely enough distance to clear the gate. You won't even cross the smallest system with that limited amount of time. And I'm using the "small box" systems from X3 here.

The only way to cross that distance in an hour using an Ore Transporter is through the Xenon Hub.
You're also using the X3, which I'm pretty sure you understand makes the false comparison pointless.

Graaf wrote:
linolafett wrote:Trades are reserved for you already in space (if you have planned it) no npc will then take away your deal. Like in Rebirth.
That doesn't make it better. Why would I want to fly 27 systems if I could possibly sell it in CBNW or CBSE? Because I made a deal and now I have to watch paint dry until it is completed?
It doesn't sound like you understand how Trade Deals works in XR. I'm sure you're aware of the free XR v4.00 demo, if you wanted to test your assumption.

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Post by Simpelton » Sun, 1. Jul 18, 09:10

ZaphodBeeblebrox wrote:gbjbaanb wrote:
If you tick off the Argons and jump a fleet in, the Argons will use their own fleets and static defences to blow you to little bits.
This may have been true of X3, but the Argons are no longer a single entity.
They no longer have race response fleets or any other magically produced defenders. Each faction will have fleets but they have to move to defend an enemy action, if they are destroyed then replacements have to be built. This requires resources and friendly shipyards.

So you want to attack an Argon faction, you can plan ahead and first of all cripple their supply lines. Reduce the resources actually getting to shipyards. This should work properly in X4 as everything is built out of the underlying economy.

Attack/cap their trade ships and steal those resources for yourself. Thus reducing their trade fleet and their ability to build more.

When you move to attack you know that the enemy cannot just jump in reinforcements. This gives you time to wage a war of attrition.
Which is all rendered meaningless if you can just drop a massive force into their key sectors and obliterate their shipyards one by one. Not that hard to do in X3, even with magical race response fleets. A horde of expendable fighters to keep the enemy fleet busy, and then enough bombers or missile frigates to reduce the shipyard in a couple volleys. Simple.

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Post by ZaphodBeeblebrox » Sun, 1. Jul 18, 10:46

Simpelton wrote:
Which is all rendered meaningless if you can just drop a massive force into their key sectors and obliterate their shipyards one by one.
So first off this massive force has to be built and paid for. It has to come out of the underlying economy. Assuming you didn't just cheat them in.

So your going to need quite a large empire to do this, its going to take some time. Or your going to have to spend a lot of time capturing and refitting all of these vessels. Even then, they still need to be produced somewhere, so that's going to mean a lot of time and resources to build them.

Then there is no just drop a fleet into key sectors. You actually are going to have to fly there. Potentially flying through a lot of enemy territory to get there. On top of this stations can have some very powerful defenses of their own. Destroying one is not going to be easy.

I recall a thread in the X3 forums where someone documented their attempt to destroy one of the races. He built a massive fleet as you suggest, IIRC it did not end well.
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Post by Graaf » Sun, 1. Jul 18, 20:23

Sparky Sparkycorp wrote:
Graaf wrote:
linolafett wrote:
Imagine to fly f.e. from Kingdom End to Queen's Harbour... once maybe fun, twice not really, later just annoying.
You will not need to fly for an hour straight. Thats what the travel drive is good for. An argument for the highways, too.
You still have to fly through 26 systems to get to your destination. That gives you an average of 138 sezuras for every system. If you're flying the stock Mercury at 100m/s, it would give you about 13,8km per system. That is barely enough distance to clear the gate. You won't even cross the smallest system with that limited amount of time. And I'm using the "small box" systems from X3 here.

The only way to cross that distance in an hour using an Ore Transporter is through the Xenon Hub.
You're also using the X3, which I'm pretty sure you understand makes the false comparison pointless.
AFAIK both Kingdom End and Queen's Harbor are not part of Rebirth. The only things not properly place in the above quote's are "Travel Drive" and "Highways".
But are you telling us both of those make it able to transfer through a system within 138s?

Sparky Sparkycorp wrote:
Graaf wrote:
linolafett wrote:Trades are reserved for you already in space (if you have planned it) no npc will then take away your deal. Like in Rebirth.
That doesn't make it better. Why would I want to fly 27 systems if I could possibly sell it in CBNW or CBSE? Because I made a deal and now I have to watch paint dry until it is completed?
It doesn't sound like you understand how Trade Deals works in XR. I'm sure you're aware of the free XR v4.00 demo, if you wanted to test your assumption.
No, I don't. But apparently it is too difficult for you to explain it to me.

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Post by MegaJohnny » Sun, 1. Jul 18, 22:52

Graaf wrote:AFAIK both Kingdom End and Queen's Harbor are not part of Rebirth. The only things not properly place in the above quote's are "Travel Drive" and "Highways".
It's not "only" travel drive and highways, though. Those are the ways you go fast in X4.

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Post by Varyah » Mon, 2. Jul 18, 21:22

Graaf wrote:No, I don't. But apparently it is too difficult for you to explain it to me.
I can help you out: you can at any point in time decide to cancel the deal and sell your cargo elsewhere. The system just prevents NPCs or your own NPC controlled trade ships to fulfill demand before your cargo arrives. In essence you get a contract to deliver fixed amount of cargo at fixed price that you can cancel without repercussions. Only profits allowed.


On the topic of jumpdrives. I think we have established that for anything besides trading it doesn't really matter if you have a jumpdrive or a teleporter (unless for excessive role playing reasons you never want to change ship). It may require more time and resources to setup since you have to position your favorite ships with respective loadout in all relevant sectors; on the upside the NPC pilots can keep them stocked with missiles and stuff, repair them while you already teleported elsewhere which you'd have to do yourself via flying somewhere or jumping in a supply ship when going with a jumpdrive. Want to control all sectors militarily? Build large fleets for each sector. Things may just become more expensive or larger in scope which may be a good thing unless it becomes a stupid grind.

What remains is TRADE. Moving cargo is something teleporter can't provide. The obvious solution is to balance trading such that local trading is profitable enough. Does it really matter if each of your NPC controlled trading ships only visits 2-3 zones/sectors or does every ship need to fly through the whole known universe (while you aren't even watching)? As for building stations for trading: Build production in places where it is locally profitable instead of one giant complex that supplies the whole universe.

As long as it is similarly profitable to run local trade routes without jumpdrive as running global trade routes but with jumpdrive, honestly, what is the difference? And even if there is a extremely profitable sink on one side of the universe you can only supply from the other side, why not build a station close to the sink producing that stuff, then make it self sufficient on the resource side and increase profitsss even more? And if it was just a one-time thing, why bother?


As for highways, I don't find them particularly interesting. But I think it is a good decision to go for larger systems (more room for content, most X3 sectors were just tiny) which need some form of fast transportation method that doesn't bore you to death (which unfortunately highways do sometimes), even with jumpdrive you have to fly to a station. From a technical perspective it is a much easier computational task to give the computer controlled ships fixed corridors to fly through instead of having completely free path finding, especially in densely populated zones. Sure, you could make the highways invisible and non-interactive for the player, but this may be a purely aesthetic problem with the introduction of the travel drive.

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Post by Graaf » Mon, 2. Jul 18, 22:34

Varyah wrote:
Graaf wrote:No, I don't. But apparently it is too difficult for you to explain it to me.
I can help you out: you can at any point in time decide to cancel the deal and sell your cargo elsewhere. The system just prevents NPCs or your own NPC controlled trade ships to fulfill demand before your cargo arrives. In essence you get a contract to deliver fixed amount of cargo at fixed price that you can cancel without repercussions. Only profits allowed.
So you can spend all your time flying over to the station just to sell it before you arrive because you see a better deal. Why should that be allowed? Someone expected that delivery.

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Post by spankahontis » Mon, 2. Jul 18, 23:43

Graaf wrote:
Varyah wrote:
Graaf wrote:No, I don't. But apparently it is too difficult for you to explain it to me.
I can help you out: you can at any point in time decide to cancel the deal and sell your cargo elsewhere. The system just prevents NPCs or your own NPC controlled trade ships to fulfill demand before your cargo arrives. In essence you get a contract to deliver fixed amount of cargo at fixed price that you can cancel without repercussions. Only profits allowed.
So you can spend all your time flying over to the station just to sell it before you arrive because you see a better deal. Why should that be allowed? Someone expected that delivery.

In a Free Market Space Sim, how would turning away a deal be policed?
Would there be a Legal Team Feature where they would send a lawyer to sue you for breaking a Contract?

But I agree that a simple reduction in Reputation that would effect prices would suffice. Hardly anything to be bothered about.
Ragna-Tech.. Forging a Better Tomorrow!

My most annoying Bugs list 6.0 Beta 4 + [All DLC]
--------------------------------
Nvidium Worshop Animation Enlarge Broken :(
Building Modules causes low frame rate :o
Massive Framerate drops freezing game! :doh:
Save Corrupted Fixed the Crash! :-D

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Post by Graaf » Tue, 3. Jul 18, 06:59

spankahontis wrote:
Graaf wrote:
Varyah wrote:
Graaf wrote:No, I don't. But apparently it is too difficult for you to explain it to me.
I can help you out: you can at any point in time decide to cancel the deal and sell your cargo elsewhere. The system just prevents NPCs or your own NPC controlled trade ships to fulfill demand before your cargo arrives. In essence you get a contract to deliver fixed amount of cargo at fixed price that you can cancel without repercussions. Only profits allowed.
So you can spend all your time flying over to the station just to sell it before you arrive because you see a better deal. Why should that be allowed? Someone expected that delivery.

In a Free Market Space Sim, how would turning away a deal be policed?
Would there be a Legal Team Feature where they would send a lawyer to sue you for breaking a Contract?

But I agree that a simple reduction in Reputation that would effect prices would suffice. Hardly anything to be bothered about.
Then why not use the old "first come, first served" principle?

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Post by spankahontis » Tue, 3. Jul 18, 17:52

Graaf wrote:
spankahontis wrote:
Graaf wrote:
Varyah wrote:
Graaf wrote:No, I don't. But apparently it is too difficult for you to explain it to me.
I can help you out: you can at any point in time decide to cancel the deal and sell your cargo elsewhere. The system just prevents NPCs or your own NPC controlled trade ships to fulfill demand before your cargo arrives. In essence you get a contract to deliver fixed amount of cargo at fixed price that you can cancel without repercussions. Only profits allowed.
So you can spend all your time flying over to the station just to sell it before you arrive because you see a better deal. Why should that be allowed? Someone expected that delivery.

In a Free Market Space Sim, how would turning away a deal be policed?
Would there be a Legal Team Feature where they would send a lawyer to sue you for breaking a Contract?

But I agree that a simple reduction in Reputation that would effect prices would suffice. Hardly anything to be bothered about.
Then why not use the old "first come, first served" principle?
I never made that comment, Varyah did.

But to explain.. "First Come First Served" is just that, just like in X3 the price of a ware in Rebirth fluctuates and you make an order for THAT current Price which the player deems "A good deal"
If you don't make the sale in time, some other ship will steal it from under your nose and you'll lose that cheap stock or just have to pay a little more for it than planned; no difference to previous X Games, only that most the stock came from somewhere while in previous X Games, the number of stock is spawned in by the God Engine to maintain a steady economy.

If however, the order is cancelled, that stock returns to the pile and the current amount is recalculated to the new price to which it will rise or fall in value because other NPC's are making deals before/after you and in doing so that "First come, first served" special offer is gone.
Of course you could be talking about the "Trade Extension Software" to which you don't have any insider knowledge of price fluctuation if you have a trade agent inside the station you use the console rather than fly near a station and check it's prices.. So you can have both options.
Once you cancel the order, that price you negotiated is gone and you'll have to wait till stocks fill up again for the price to drop.

The concept of putting down a deposit when you purchase the wares is an intriguing idea though; Immersive as well.
But what seems to be the problem here? X Games have always had this order placing system, it just differs from the console, in X3 you make the order, someone beats you to it, you pay more or wait, in Rebirth you see the price on offer click on the buy before the price changes and you purchase that ware according to how it's advertised.
Ragna-Tech.. Forging a Better Tomorrow!

My most annoying Bugs list 6.0 Beta 4 + [All DLC]
--------------------------------
Nvidium Worshop Animation Enlarge Broken :(
Building Modules causes low frame rate :o
Massive Framerate drops freezing game! :doh:
Save Corrupted Fixed the Crash! :-D

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Post by Graaf » Tue, 3. Jul 18, 22:27

spankahontis wrote:But to explain.. "First Come First Served" is just that, just like in X3 the price of a ware in Rebirth fluctuates and you make an order for THAT current Price which the player deems "A good deal"
If you don't make the sale in time, some other ship will steal it from under your nose and you'll lose that cheap stock or just have to pay a little more for it than planned; no difference to previous X Games, only that most the stock came from somewhere while in previous X Games, the number of stock is spawned in by the God Engine to maintain a steady economy.

If however, the order is cancelled, that stock returns to the pile and the current amount is recalculated to the new price to which it will rise or fall in value because other NPC's are making deals before/after you and in doing so that "First come, first served" special offer is gone.
Of course you could be talking about the "Trade Extension Software" to which you don't have any insider knowledge of price fluctuation if you have a trade agent inside the station you use the console rather than fly near a station and check it's prices.. So you can have both options.
Once you cancel the order, that price you negotiated is gone and you'll have to wait till stocks fill up again for the price to drop.

The concept of putting down a deposit when you purchase the wares is an intriguing idea though; Immersive as well.
But what seems to be the problem here? X Games have always had this order placing system, it just differs from the console, in X3 you make the order, someone beats you to it, you pay more or wait, in Rebirth you see the price on offer click on the buy before the price changes and you purchase that ware according to how it's advertised.
Why not complain about the unlimited amount of money readily available for NPC's? And do asteroids still spawn in? Because that too would fall under your complaint. Sure, some products are spawned inside Trading Stations. And for the immersion factor we can explain that it was produced at and transported from the planet beneath. Does that suddenly make X3 a bad game?
Do missions still spawn ships? Do spawned ship drop loot? Do you use loot, dropped from spawned ship at you workshop to make items you use during further gameplay? Does this also make Rebirth a bad game?


From what I read I still consider the X3 way better. When you buy something, you actually buy it. You can't undo that simply because you see a better offer on your way to pick up your "trade".

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Post by ZaphodBeeblebrox » Wed, 4. Jul 18, 15:50

@Graaf

My missus would entirely and utterly disagree with you. I've known her go out shopping and not buy a single thing "just in case its cheaper somewhere else" so maybe its a female thing to look for bargains. Real men know what they want and just go out and buy it. Once its bought that's it deal done.

Maybe Egosoft are trying to appeal to your feminine side!
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Post by gbjbaanb » Wed, 4. Jul 18, 16:19

spankahontis wrote: In a Free Market Space Sim, how would turning away a deal be policed?
Would there be a Legal Team Feature where they would send a lawyer to sue you for breaking a Contract?

But I agree that a simple reduction in Reputation that would effect prices would suffice. Hardly anything to be bothered about.
Of course, if we assume this is normal, then NPCs can do it too. So if you have a factory and you make a deal for energy cells to be delivered so you can manufacture your grommits for sale, and the NPC flies by a factory offering a better price, they can cancel the deal and sell them too. And then you're left having to wait for another trader to decide to fulfil your order - hopefully.

So unless you have a system of contracts with penalties for breaking them, then you're effectively back to first-come-first-served anyway.

But if this is something only the player can do, then its dumbed down for children who don't want to ever lose.

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Post by spankahontis » Thu, 5. Jul 18, 23:24

Graaf wrote: Why not complain about the unlimited amount of money readily available for NPC's?
So, what you're saying is we should give every NPC in the Game their own wallet?

Question is, would adding a wallet to every NPC in the game to buy and sell, wouldn't that put untold pressure on any players PC Performance to do that? Thousands of little ai's working at once?
If the hit on our PC is minimal, then i'm all for it.

Graaf wrote:And do asteroids still spawn in? Because that too would fall under your complaint.
Only imagination in this respect is required to fill in those blanks, not a black and white issue here, Graaf.
There are Certain areas where Procedural Generation is necessary, asteroids fall into that group areas to which it is not, like Stations, Ships etc.

CBJ and others have gone into great detail about that and why Asteroids need to respawn and at the rate they spawn, so not really interested in bringing up an old debate.
Graaf wrote:Sure, some products are spawned inside Trading Stations. And for the immersion factor we can explain that it was produced at and transported from the planet beneath. Does that suddenly make X3 a bad game?
Only, no ships are seen coming to and from a Planet to give us that imagination of wares coming to Stations, they just 'POOF' appear in the holds of stations.
This is what i'm trying to get through to you.
An Asteroid can come from anyway in the great Void of the Universe,
That's the imagination I can get with rather than knowing they are actually Procedurally Generated at a rate that stops the minerals Market from getting Exhausted and breaking the Games Economy.
If you can think of a better way to make Asteroids appear and not run out and break the entire Economy? I'm open to your ideas.
Graaf wrote:Do missions still spawn ships? Do spawned ship drop loot? Do you use loot, dropped from spawned ship at you workshop to make items you use during further gameplay? Does this also make Rebirth a bad game?

From what I read I still consider the X3 way better.
X:Rebirth is not a perfect game if that's what you're implying?
But neithers X3, that I have to repeat that statement to you is annoying.

But I've had the privilege of playing both X3 and Rebirth while you haven't even bothered to play X:Rebirth, therefore you cannot make a valid decision everytime you say that "It's Better" it just falls on Deaf Ears.

X: Rebirth was an attempt to improve on X3's Economy, it attempted to make everything that originated from something and on many fronts it succeeded.
It simply didn't have enough time to add everything People wanted, it was enough for me and People out there genuinely liked it, some didn't.
That's why I've played X:Rebirth allot longer than X3, it's good in it's own right.
Graaf wrote:When you buy something, you actually buy it. You can't undo that simply because you see a better offer on your way to pick up your "trade".

Finally, we get a response to the actual point!! Hurray!!!

And yes you can, it's called a Derivative.
gbjbaanb wrote:
Of course, if we assume this is normal, then NPCs can do it too. So if you have a factory and you make a deal for energy cells to be delivered so you can manufacture your grommits for sale, and the NPC flies by a factory offering a better price, they can cancel the deal and sell them too. And then you're left having to wait for another trader to decide to fulfil your order - hopefully.

So unless you have a system of contracts with penalties for breaking them, then you're effectively back to first-come-first-served anyway.

But if this is something only the player can do, then its dumbed down for children who don't want to ever lose.
I very much doubt it was to satisfy children that didn't want to lose, more they didn't think about making it all inclusive, or maybe it was more complex to roll it out entirely?
Ragna-Tech.. Forging a Better Tomorrow!

My most annoying Bugs list 6.0 Beta 4 + [All DLC]
--------------------------------
Nvidium Worshop Animation Enlarge Broken :(
Building Modules causes low frame rate :o
Massive Framerate drops freezing game! :doh:
Save Corrupted Fixed the Crash! :-D

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Post by ajime » Fri, 6. Jul 18, 03:59

I very much doubt it was to satisfy children that didn't want to lose, more they didn't think about making it all inclusive, or maybe it was more complex to roll it out entirely?
I just realized the sell price bar in XR can't sell lower than average price last night while trying to figure out why it wasn't selling. I remembered i can always dump stuff for loss to save space in X3 though. Interesting.

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Post by Honved » Fri, 6. Jul 18, 15:49

Being able to sell for below Average price, but still above Cost, was viable in X3, not sure about XR. You could buy something for 3 credits below average price, sell it for 1 credit below average, and turn a profit, even though you were technically "dumping" it at a price below average. It's not "dumping it at a loss to save space" if you're making money by doing it.

Having every NPC in the game with their own "wallet" isn't necessary if more than half of them are connected to corporations, factions, or trade cartels which have a communal "wallet". Adding a dozen or more "mini-Corporations" with 2-20 traders each could significantly reduce the number of "owner-operators" that require a full set of financial stats just for a single ship.

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Post by Falcrack » Fri, 6. Jul 18, 16:29

Honved wrote:Having every NPC in the game with their own "wallet" isn't necessary if more than half of them are connected to corporations, factions, or trade cartels which have a communal "wallet". Adding a dozen or more "mini-Corporations" with 2-20 traders each could significantly reduce the number of "owner-operators" that require a full set of financial stats just for a single ship.
Exactly my thoughts

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Post by sd_jasper » Fri, 6. Jul 18, 19:23

Average price fluctuates based on the current market. I know that I have been able to sell below average in my Warehouses. But their is a minimum price, and I can guess that some products that are saturated in some sectors have the "average" price near or at the minimum.

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Post by Graaf » Sat, 7. Jul 18, 10:49

spankahontis wrote:
Graaf wrote: Why not complain about the unlimited amount of money readily available for NPC's?
So, what you're saying is we should give every NPC in the Game their own wallet?

Question is, would adding a wallet to every NPC in the game to buy and sell, wouldn't that put untold pressure on any players PC Performance to do that? Thousands of little ai's working at once?
If the hit on our PC is minimal, then i'm all for it.
Does it matter if they retain their ability to have infinite amounts of money?

But sure, why not? We had it with the Shady Business storyline.
And when they run out of money GOD steps in and decommissions a station.

I did see a Habitation Module on the station builder. Maybe we even get Overhead Cost when you build a station.

spankahontis wrote:
Graaf wrote:And do asteroids still spawn in? Because that too would fall under your complaint.
Only imagination in this respect is required to fill in those blanks, not a black and white issue here, Graaf.
There are Certain areas where Procedural Generation is necessary, asteroids fall into that group areas to which it is not, like Stations, Ships etc.

CBJ and others have gone into great detail about that and why Asteroids need to respawn and at the rate they spawn, so not really interested in bringing up an old debate.
I don't know about an old debate, but common sense tells me we need them, otherwise the game will grind to a halt due to lack of minerals.

spankahontis wrote:
Graaf wrote:Sure, some products are spawned inside Trading Stations. And for the immersion factor we can explain that it was produced at and transported from the planet beneath. Does that suddenly make X3 a bad game?
Only, no ships are seen coming to and from a Planet to give us that imagination of wares coming to Stations, they just 'POOF' appear in the holds of stations.
This is what i'm trying to get through to you.
An Asteroid can come from anyway in the great Void of the Universe,
That's the imagination I can get with rather than knowing they are actually Procedurally Generated at a rate that stops the minerals Market from getting Exhausted and breaking the Games Economy.
If you can think of a better way to make Asteroids appear and not run out and break the entire Economy? I'm open to your ideas.
So when A appears on a station but you didn't see it get there it breaks your imagination, but when B appears in space and you didn't see it get there it doesn't break your imagination? This is why discussions are so difficult. That double standard.

spankahontis wrote:
Graaf wrote:Do missions still spawn ships? Do spawned ship drop loot? Do you use loot, dropped from spawned ship at you workshop to make items you use during further gameplay? Does this also make Rebirth a bad game?

From what I read I still consider the X3 way better.
X:Rebirth is not a perfect game if that's what you're implying?
But neithers X3, that I have to repeat that statement to you is annoying.

But I've had the privilege of playing both X3 and Rebirth while you haven't even bothered to play X:Rebirth, therefore you cannot make a valid decision everytime you say that "It's Better" it just falls on Deaf Ears.

X: Rebirth was an attempt to improve on X3's Economy, it attempted to make everything that originated from something and on many fronts it succeeded.
It simply didn't have enough time to add everything People wanted, it was enough for me and People out there genuinely liked it, some didn't.
That's why I've played X:Rebirth allot longer than X3, it's good in it's own right.
Nicely done. Using the last part of one paragraph and the beginning of the next paragraph as a single statement.

But fine, don't listen to me. You can look at the statistics.
Just because Rebirth has a newer engine and is of a later date, that doesn't make it an improvement on the previous game.

In comparison to X3 I thus far see 4 improvements in Foundations: Expanded production requirements, Shipyards producing ships, Station Builder & Game Engine. But gameplay-wise I see Rebirth, and that is not an improvement.

spankahontis wrote:
Graaf wrote:From what I read I still consider the X3 way better. When you buy something, you actually buy it. You can't undo that simply because you see a better offer on your way to pick up your "trade".
Finally, we get a response to the actual point!! Hurray!!!

And yes you can, it's called a Derivative.
Since I was talking about trading in X3, this option is invalid. And it is also linked to the least interesting part of X3AP: the Stock Market.

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