Jumpdrives got me into X3, highways just dropped me off XR, and we're legion

[LittleBird]

There are jumpdrives in Star Trek?

Maybe you can count in the spore drive of the new Star Trek series

[Karvat]

I absolutely want the teleportation, it's fascinating, and it will allow us to always be present in all the situations in which our subordinates will meet

[Skeeter]

Ok well warp drive I ment when i said st had em, similar things, faster than light to get to vast distances etc. If you want to be technical tho they also had warp 10, transwarp, slipstream,time travel, etc.

[PowerPC603]

They looked at the auto-jump feature like in X3.
They want to give the NPC's the same features the player has, and our ships leave your station, jump to the destination and dock, to sell the products being produced on your station.

Now, if the NPC's all have that same feature, nobody is flying anymore from A to C, passing B.
Nobody would fight anymore because they just jump over the enemies.

So they just remove the jumpdrive altogether because only the player is allowed to use it and can be considered cheating.
The player can have thousands of ships, jumping from A to C, while every NPC ship has to fly from A to B to C.
So every player using the auto-jump feature is actually cheating, me included.

Also, this way, without a jumpdrive, the player can't get from A to C if there is a major battle at point B.
He'll have to fight his way through to get assets at point C. When those assets are in place, the player can teleport from A to C.

The same applies to the NPC's. They can't simply jump in behind your defense lines, they have to fight their way through.

It adds strategy to the game, which wasn't really there in previous titles.

Whenever you were exploring and you came in an enemy sector, you had lots of enemies between North and South gate for example (you're coming from the North gate and you want to go South).
You just needed to get in range of the South gate so your targeting reticule can select it and make it appear on the map, then just jump over the enemies, appear at the South gate and fly through the South gate, evading the fight.

Even exploring was a shortcut using the jumpdrive.

The only difference between jumpdrive ald teleportation is that you didn't need an asset at the target destination with the jumpdrive, you only needed to have the target explored and selectable on the map.
Using the teleporter, you need an asset at the destination.

How many times did you get the warning one of your ships was being attacked and even with the Springblossom, you couldn't get there in time?
It's because you lose precious time jumping to a jumpgate and you still need to fly from the jumpgate to the ship in distress.
Teleporting there, you're on the ship in distress immediately without wasting time to get from a jumpgate to the ship.

And with our scripters, a real jumpdrive script will still be coded someday, so no worries. Everyone will get what they require.

[Vandragorax]

Reasons why Jumpdrives are being REPLACED with other more interesting features (notice I didn't write that they are being removed because they are actually being replaced with other comparable things):

• Makes the galaxy feel too small
  - Because the player can be almost instantly at any point at any moment, there is no need to actually "travel" anywhere after obtaining a jump drive. It trivialises the scale of the universe. We all know this feeling from "free roam" games with quick travel points, like FarCry or the Witcher - least of all X3.
• Trivialises sector combat by having a fleet anywhere at any time
  - If you can have a fleet of capital ships be anywhere at any time, there is absolutely no option for the devs to create tactically interesting sectors or gate placements. If your fleet has to actually travel there, then you need to be prepared and need to think carefully before expanding outside your current sphere of influence. I.e. more challenging to defend two stations at opposite ends of the galaxy.
• Causes a symptom where the player will stay in their largest ship at all times
  - Most players will always be in control of their largest ship because it means they can jump anywhere and help whatever is going on. This leads to a lack of variety. Changing this for a feature such as the teleportation means that we will regularly be able to take charge of a multitude of different ship types when we need to flit from sector to sector dealing with whatever is going on there with the ships that we've placed in that area already.

Things that will now be possible without jumpdrives that WERE NOT POSSIBLE BEFORE:

• Want to blockade a travel lane/gate and destroy anyone trying to enter YOUR space?
  - Now we will be able to do this. Control a sector of space, nobody can enter if you don't want them to because you know exactly where they will try to enter from and can literally blockade it with a fleet. The key difference here is that you will also stop anyone from travelling THROUGH your space, whereas before the AI could just jump past you ignoring the blockade all together. This could cause some real fun disruption and interesting emergent gameplay.
• Want to pull capital ships off their travel routes to engage in a bit of piracy?
  - Now this will be a lot easier since you won't only be finding ships travelling within the zone like with XR, but ALL ships travelling through the world without jumping directly to their destination.
• Want to build in the opposite end of the galaxy?
  - Now you need to think carefully how to protect that asset, greater distances between areas will be more challenging to control until you build up presence in both.

This has been discussed at great length elsewhere. But for all the reasons above, the game mechanics will be far more interesting and challenging without jumpdrives.

Suffice to say that STRATEGY and TACTICAL PLACEMENT OF ASSETS are now a thing, whereas in previous X games there was absolutely zero possibility of this.

It will force us to THINK more cleverly, BUILD in more strategic and tactical places, FIGHT more selective battles so we don't piss off everyone along our path, and TRADE more efficiently as well as having to actually weigh up the pros and cons of trading risky routes.

All-in-all I believe it will be a HUGE boon to the game series, and I personally believe that all the jumpdrive fossils will be quickly coming to realise how much more enjoyable the game will be without the jumpdrives being a thing.

And hell, if after 6 months of the game being out you really decide to prove me wrong and still whine about jumpdrives, I'm sure someone will have modded them in by then for you

[mr.WHO]

Not to mention it will probably be easy for modders to port the jumpdrive code from X-Rebirth...if someone will need it.

IMO on paper, the X4 teleportation device seems to be good direction - the jumpdrives were always OP. With TD you can still swiftly react to events with your ships present, but will not kill distance/exploration feeling.

Not to mention JD kill any defence strategy as you can bypass any blockade.

[Graaf]

Reasons why Jumpdrives are being REPLACED with other more interesting features (notice I didn't write that they are being removed because they are actually being replaced with other comparable things):

That is like replacing my Ibiza with a Ferrari. It has the same functionality, it's just that I find that the Ibiza is better.
If it isn't going to be removed, it will still be there. As in I get both the Ibiza and the Ferrari.

[*] Makes the galaxy feel too small
- Because the player can be almost instantly at any point at any moment, there is no need to actually "travel" anywhere after obtaining a jump drive. It trivialises the scale of the universe. We all know this feeling from "free roam" games with quick travel points, like FarCry or the Witcher - least of all X3.

And how exactly is the teleporter improving on this. Because to me is does exactly the opposite. You're not going to "travel" either.

[*] Trivialises sector combat by having a fleet anywhere at any time
- If you can have a fleet of capital ships be anywhere at any time, there is absolutely no option for the devs to create tactically interesting sectors or gate placements. If your fleet has to actually travel there, then you need to be prepared and need to think carefully before expanding outside your current sphere of influence. I.e. more challenging to defend two stations at opposite ends of the galaxy.

Why would you place you 2nd station on the other side of the universe?
But if you do, that is why you have a local defense force.
And there was no need to take your fleet somewhere else anyway, ever.

[*] Causes a symptom where the player will stay in their largest ship at all times
- Most players will always be in control of their largest ship because it means they can jump anywhere and help whatever is going on. This leads to a lack of variety. Changing this for a feature such as the teleportation means that we will regularly be able to take charge of a multitude of different ship types when we need to flit from sector to sector dealing with whatever is going on there with the ships that we've placed in that area already.

Speak for yourself. My preferred ship is TS-class. And IMHO the stock Mercury is one of the best.
But I see the main focus of the teleporter is not getting the player to where the action is. Or to instantly travel to the other side of the universe, with pinpoint accuracy. It's to have the player experience other ships, provided they are not replica's of your original ship?

Things that will now be possible without jumpdrives that WERE NOT POSSIBLE BEFORE:
[*]Want to blockade a travel lane/gate and destroy anyone trying to enter YOUR space?
- Now we will be able to do this. Control a sector of space, nobody can enter if you don't want them to because you know exactly where they will try to enter from and can literally blockade it with a fleet. The key difference here is that you will also stop anyone from travelling THROUGH your space, whereas before the AI could just jump past you ignoring the blockade all together. This could cause some real fun disruption and interesting emergent gameplay.

In my experience this has always been possible, in your own little system. Problem was, your system wasn't on a main trade route so you only got the blockade your own customers.
As I see it, this is only going to work if we get to take over systems.

[*]Want to pull capital ships off their travel routes to engage in a bit of piracy?
- Now this will be a lot easier since you won't only be finding ships travelling within the zone like with XR, but ALL ships travelling through the world without jumping directly to their destination.

This has been an activity I do not use nor care for. Unless I actually start a game as Bankrupt Assassin.
FIGHT is a necessary part, but I find it a boring player activity.

[*]Want to build in the opposite end of the galaxy?
- Now you need to think carefully how to protect that asset, greater distances between areas will be more challenging to control until you build up presence in both.

Again. Local defense forces.

This has been discussed at great length elsewhere. But for all the reasons above, the game mechanics will be far more interesting and challenging without jumpdrives.

Suffice to say that STRATEGY and TACTICAL PLACEMENT OF ASSETS are now a thing, whereas in previous X games there was absolutely zero possibility of this.

Brute Force is a valid strategy and tactic. And most of the time very effective.
And without the jumpdrive, there will only be 1 tactic and strategy available. We already discussed it.

It will force us to THINK more cleverly, BUILD in more strategic and tactical places, FIGHT more selective battles so we don't piss off everyone along our path, and TRADE more efficiently as well as having to actually weigh up the pros and cons of trading risky routes.

All-in-all I believe it will be a HUGE boon to the game series, and I personally believe that all the jumpdrive fossils will be quickly coming to realise how much more enjoyable the game will be without the jumpdrives being a thing.

Just like Rebirth was an improvement?
Apparently, for some unknown reason, everyone was forcing you to use the jumpdrive in the previous games. I don't know how, but that is not important. Although I believe that most of the time you didn't have a jumpdrive available in Rebirth. It was only put in because the community asked.

Lets see...
We didn't need multiple pilotable ships in Rebirth because we had remote drone control.
We don't need a jumpdrive because we have a teleporter.
We don't need Borons because we have walking.
What would be the next bad decision?

And hell, if after 6 months of the game being out you really decide to prove me wrong and still whine about jumpdrives, I'm sure someone will have modded them in by then for you

You assume I will buy Rebirth 2? What gave you that idea?

[Fedora01]

That is like replacing my Ibiza with a Ferrari. It has the same functionality, it's just that I find that the Ibiza is better.
If it isn't going to be removed, it will still be there. As in I get both the Ibiza and the Ferrari.

That's also assuming your Ibiza can instantly teleport you anywhere (that there's a gate/beacon of course). Whereas your Ferrari can teleport you into any other car, house, office, plot of land, lawn chair, tricycle, etc... The difference is bigger than you think. (maybe not that extensive, but you get the point.)

[Skeeter]

Very well said graaf

[spacecoyote99]

Player jump drives were modded into XR and will be modded into X4. Problem solved.

[Vandragorax]

@graaf obviously our opinions on the necessity of jump drives differ

There are too many points to address individually there but I want to comment on the trivialising aspect because I see where you are coming from saying that teleportation is also instant travel, but that's sort of the point. It IS instant travel, but without the additional benefits of a jump drive which can:

* move any ship from a -> b including:
- cargo
- docked ships
- weapons/armaments

It's not the act of jumping alone that trivialises the game, but rather those extras that can come with it, and that is what teleportation will counteract. Sure you can effectively have another identical ship in the other sector, so you might as well have a jump drive you say? Wrong. Because teleporting there instead will NOT allow the player to bring cargo, docked ships, and weapons/armaments with them instantly. That is the key difference, and it's a very big difference in strategy. The player has to actually have bought and placed assets in the destination already, they won't just magically appear there through the act of jumping.

Take a trading gameplay approach as an example. You want to trade from a -> b and there is a quick direct route but it is full of pirates/xenon, or there is a longer safer route through friendly territory. With a jump drive, you don't care about any of that, you just jump directly from where you bought wares, to where you want to sell them and your only consideration is where you restock on jump fuel, or where jump beacons are.

It trivialises the entire interim game content. But without jump drive, you have to actually physically fly those wares to the destination sector. You have a choice then, to take the safe route or the dangerous route. Both have advantages and disadvantages, differences required in escorts, and a whole load of other interesting things for the player to consider and deal with - such as the possibility of pirates intercepting you along the route or whatever.

That is why removing jump drives will greatly benefit the gameplay experience, because it opens up so many more interesting decisions for us as players. Yes teleportation IS instant travel, and I agree that we NEED a version of an instant travel to get the most out of the game. However we do NOT need instant travel of: goods, docked ships, and weapons, only instant travel of the player's presence - so teleportation seems like absolutely the right decision.

Finally, you say I'm assuming you will buy X4 and you seem to say that you won't. So I'm wondering, why do you even care about if jump drives are or are not in X4 in that case? Go and play X3 and be happy, but if you won't even think about buying X4 then please stop trying to influence the game for the rest of us who are very much looking forward to it and the gameplay changes that Egosoft have come up with for us, which I believe are a step in very much the right direction.

[wellmadman]

Another Point I would like to make in FAVOUR of jumpdrives is this.

Others have said using teleport you can get to the action in seconds, Well to be fair I only like my m6, and also THE FIRST SHIP of any type you buy in game is special, it has the same stats as any other of the same you buy but it has a personal feeling of well I saved and got this. its my first m0-m1-m6 tp-ts etc.

So teleporting into another M6 EVEN if it has all the same stats, will feel different to the players, and I think to myself, WHY must I be forced to buy 10000000000s m6s to place everywhere and gear/stat them all the same, just because I dont have jumpdrive. Also even if I did have 1 of the same ship in every system, they would not be my FRIST ship and would have less feeling to it.

**
Someone also said about AI having to go from A-B-C, where play can jumpdrive A-C to get around the battle.

Well without Jumpdrives you have to PWNED destory and take over sector B, So there was no battle, FORCING you to place army in that sector, and then trading from B to A and C. Which is pretty much the game as it stands at the moment.*not aimed at x4*

[Honved]

I see the removal of the jump drive, and its replacement by long-distance "teleporting" as a necessary evil. I don't like it, but it solves a lot of balance problems by making the player and AI use the same rules.

Mainly, it means that one mega-fleet can't control all of known space. Either you and the AI concentrate your fleets and only control one small area, or else spread them out and have to contest multiple areas with equally scattered opponents. A lesser power can still be viable in a small area. With expanded economics and the AI actually having to BUY its fleets, it prevents an easy takeover of the universe by a single faction.

In most X3 campaigns, I couldn't wait to get a TM, TL, or ideally an M7 with hangers. That gave me the potential to switch between that and M3 and M5 fighters on the fly for different purposes or missions, while having something capable of resupplying missiles and E-Cells quickly. With mods, adding a repair laser allowed it to serve as a combined fleet tender, mobile repair facility, and field base. With long-range teleportation in X4, I won't have to return to close proximity of the carrier to switch between ships.

To me, it's not "better" or "worse", just "different". I just hope that X4 doesn't force the use of the "highways", which seemed like a terrible idea from the moment I first heard about them.

[Graaf]

That is why removing jump drives will greatly benefit the gameplay experience, because it opens up so many more interesting decisions for us as players. Yes teleportation IS instant travel, and I agree that we NEED a version of an instant travel to get the most out of the game. However we do NOT need instant travel of: goods, docked ships, and weapons, only instant travel of the player's presence - so teleportation seems like absolutely the right decision.

So only in favour of those who prefer FIGHT, but not TRADE.

I see the removal of the jump drive, and its replacement by long-distance "teleporting" as a necessary evil. I don't like it, but it solves a lot of balance problems by making the player and AI use the same rules.

So make the AI use the jumpdrive too. Was it really that hard to think of this?

Finally, you say I'm assuming you will buy X4 and you seem to say that you won't. So I'm wondering, why do you even care about if jump drives are or are not in X4 in that case? Go and play X3 and be happy, but if you won't even think about buying X4 then please stop trying to influence the game for the rest of us who are very much looking forward to it and the gameplay changes that Egosoft have come up with for us, which I believe are a step in very much the right direction.

I would love to buy X4. It's just not what's being made.

[Nanook]

...
Finally, you say I'm assuming you will buy X4 and you seem to say that you won't. So I'm wondering, why do you even care about if jump drives are or are not in X4 in that case? Go and play X3 and be happy, but if you won't even think about buying X4 then please stop trying to influence the game for the rest of us who are very much looking forward to it and the gameplay changes that Egosoft have come up with for us, which I believe are a step in very much the right direction.

It's not for you to decide if someone should post their opinions or not. Please refrain from doing so in the future. EVERY opinion is valuable, not just those that agree with yours.

[Sandalpocalypse]

So make the AI use the jumpdrive too. Was it really that hard to think of this?

I'm not sure you know what you are asking for.

The AI is deliberately crippled in x3, if they all used the same scripts as player have access to, there would be little TRADE at all.

So only in favour of those who prefer FIGHT, but not TRADE.

TRADE is what's *by far* most trivialized by jump drives in x3. The dynamic economy is completely flattened by, essentially, the removal of distance as a factor.

[Falcrack]

So make the AI use the jumpdrive too. Was it really that hard to think of this?

I'm not sure you know what you are asking for.

The AI is deliberately crippled in x3, if they all used the same scripts as player have access to, there would be little TRADE at all.

So only in favour of those who prefer FIGHT, but not TRADE.

TRADE is what's *by far* most trivialized by jump drives in x3. The dynamic economy is completely flattened by, essentially, the removal of distance as a factor.

I've never bought the argument that if the AI had access to the player trading scripts, and jumpdrives, that trade would be eliminated. It would certainly be more competitive, and profit margins would be more thin, but it would still exist, both for players and NPCs.

What I think a good solution to the jumpdrive overpowered issue would be to have players and AI have and use jumpdrives, but greatly limit the number of gates in the universe. You can use the jumpdrive to jump to gates, which mostly serve to connect different solar systems. But within those systems, there would still be vast distances to cover which would be handled by highways or boost drives. So limit the number of systems, make each system bigger which necessitates non-jump drive travel, and allow jump drives to jump to gates, so that at least some component of travel (travel between systems separated by multiple gates) is reduced.

[Graaf]

So make the AI use the jumpdrive too. Was it really that hard to think of this?

I'm not sure you know what you are asking for.

The AI is deliberately crippled in x3, if they all used the same scripts as player have access to, there would be little TRADE at all.

All I'm asking for is that the NPC's are playing with the same possibilities we do.
I'm not asking to remove the infinite money cheat NPC stations use. That would really break the game.

So only in favour of those who prefer FIGHT, but not TRADE.

TRADE is what's *by far* most trivialized by jump drives in x3. The dynamic economy is completely flattened by, essentially, the removal of distance as a factor.

Well, at least in X3 distance is a factor. In Rebirth you can buy and sell without even having your ship at the station.

[LittleBird]

What I think a good solution to the jumpdrive overpowered issue would be to have players and AI have and use jumpdrives, but greatly limit the number of gates in the universe. You can use the jumpdrive to jump to gates, which mostly serve to connect different solar systems. But within those systems, there would still be vast distances to cover which would be handled by highways or boost drives. So limit the number of systems, make each system bigger which necessitates non-jump drive travel, and allow jump drives to jump to gates, so that at least some component of travel (travel between systems separated by multiple gates) is reduced.

The problem still exist.
You can buy goods in solar system A and sell it in B without distance between A and B. The only distance you have is inside the solar system.
By game logic goods in solar system A are rarer in B. If not there would be no point in different systems.
Also you can jump from A to C,D,E,F,G. If solar systems are huge and you can jump to few gates only then jumps cover large distances.

[GCU Grey Area]

Well, at least in X3 distance is a factor. In Rebirth you can buy and sell without even having your ship at the station.

Completely incorrect.

Although in XR trade deals can be initiated remotely, freighters still have to physically travel to stations to collect & deliver wares. The distance between the stations at each end of a trade run in XR is a critical factor in determining how profitable the trade run is. Unlike X3, freighters in XR have to travel through each & every gate along the route when engaging in long distance trade. Needs careful consideration to determine whether a single high margin long distance trade will make more profit than multiple lower margin short distance trades.

Takes several times longer to do a trade run between, say, Omicron Lyrae & Home of Light, than to trade between adjacent sectors in one of those systems, whereas in X3 all that matters is the distance between the destination station & the nearest gate. Doesn't matter where the ship's coming from, next sector or the other side of the universe, if you use a jumpdrive the flight time will be identical.