Jumpdrives got me into X3, highways just dropped me off XR, and we're legion

[ajime]

I very much doubt it was to satisfy children that didn't want to lose, more they didn't think about making it all inclusive, or maybe it was more complex to roll it out entirely?

I just realized the sell price bar in XR can't sell lower than average price last night while trying to figure out why it wasn't selling. I remembered i can always dump stuff for loss to save space in X3 though. Interesting.

[Honved]

Being able to sell for below Average price, but still above Cost, was viable in X3, not sure about XR. You could buy something for 3 credits below average price, sell it for 1 credit below average, and turn a profit, even though you were technically "dumping" it at a price below average. It's not "dumping it at a loss to save space" if you're making money by doing it.

Having every NPC in the game with their own "wallet" isn't necessary if more than half of them are connected to corporations, factions, or trade cartels which have a communal "wallet". Adding a dozen or more "mini-Corporations" with 2-20 traders each could significantly reduce the number of "owner-operators" that require a full set of financial stats just for a single ship.

[Falcrack]

Having every NPC in the game with their own "wallet" isn't necessary if more than half of them are connected to corporations, factions, or trade cartels which have a communal "wallet". Adding a dozen or more "mini-Corporations" with 2-20 traders each could significantly reduce the number of "owner-operators" that require a full set of financial stats just for a single ship.

Exactly my thoughts

[sd_jasper]

Average price fluctuates based on the current market. I know that I have been able to sell below average in my Warehouses. But their is a minimum price, and I can guess that some products that are saturated in some sectors have the "average" price near or at the minimum.

[Graaf]

Why not complain about the unlimited amount of money readily available for NPC's?

So, what you're saying is we should give every NPC in the Game their own wallet?

Question is, would adding a wallet to every NPC in the game to buy and sell, wouldn't that put untold pressure on any players PC Performance to do that? Thousands of little ai's working at once?
If the hit on our PC is minimal, then i'm all for it.

Does it matter if they retain their ability to have infinite amounts of money?

But sure, why not? We had it with the Shady Business storyline.
And when they run out of money GOD steps in and decommissions a station.

I did see a Habitation Module on the station builder. Maybe we even get Overhead Cost when you build a station.

And do asteroids still spawn in? Because that too would fall under your complaint.

Only imagination in this respect is required to fill in those blanks, not a black and white issue here, Graaf.
There are Certain areas where Procedural Generation is necessary, asteroids fall into that group areas to which it is not, like Stations, Ships etc.

CBJ and others have gone into great detail about that and why Asteroids need to respawn and at the rate they spawn, so not really interested in bringing up an old debate.

I don't know about an old debate, but common sense tells me we need them, otherwise the game will grind to a halt due to lack of minerals.

Sure, some products are spawned inside Trading Stations. And for the immersion factor we can explain that it was produced at and transported from the planet beneath. Does that suddenly make X3 a bad game?

Only, no ships are seen coming to and from a Planet to give us that imagination of wares coming to Stations, they just 'POOF' appear in the holds of stations.
This is what i'm trying to get through to you.
An Asteroid can come from anyway in the great Void of the Universe,
That's the imagination I can get with rather than knowing they are actually Procedurally Generated at a rate that stops the minerals Market from getting Exhausted and breaking the Games Economy.
If you can think of a better way to make Asteroids appear and not run out and break the entire Economy? I'm open to your ideas.

So when A appears on a station but you didn't see it get there it breaks your imagination, but when B appears in space and you didn't see it get there it doesn't break your imagination? This is why discussions are so difficult. That double standard.

Do missions still spawn ships? Do spawned ship drop loot? Do you use loot, dropped from spawned ship at you workshop to make items you use during further gameplay? Does this also make Rebirth a bad game?

From what I read I still consider the X3 way better.

X:Rebirth is not a perfect game if that's what you're implying?
But neithers X3, that I have to repeat that statement to you is annoying.

But I've had the privilege of playing both X3 and Rebirth while you haven't even bothered to play X:Rebirth, therefore you cannot make a valid decision everytime you say that "It's Better" it just falls on Deaf Ears.

X: Rebirth was an attempt to improve on X3's Economy, it attempted to make everything that originated from something and on many fronts it succeeded.
It simply didn't have enough time to add everything People wanted, it was enough for me and People out there genuinely liked it, some didn't.
That's why I've played X:Rebirth allot longer than X3, it's good in it's own right.

Nicely done. Using the last part of one paragraph and the beginning of the next paragraph as a single statement.

But fine, don't listen to me. You can look at the statistics.
Just because Rebirth has a newer engine and is of a later date, that doesn't make it an improvement on the previous game.

In comparison to X3 I thus far see 4 improvements in Foundations: Expanded production requirements, Shipyards producing ships, Station Builder & Game Engine. But gameplay-wise I see Rebirth, and that is not an improvement.

From what I read I still consider the X3 way better. When you buy something, you actually buy it. You can't undo that simply because you see a better offer on your way to pick up your "trade".

Finally, we get a response to the actual point!! Hurray!!!

And yes you can, it's called a Derivative.

Since I was talking about trading in X3, this option is invalid. And it is also linked to the least interesting part of X3AP: the Stock Market.

[Ringkeeper]

Or why don't just limit the jumpdrive range at 3 or 4 systems?
I agree it's too powerfull to alow player to jump from one point to the far edge of the map in 1sec. But if we limit the range of the jumpdrive, you have no more this problem.

Remember the map and layout of the universe is very different from the old gird of boxes. We don't know enough about the new map, but using X Rebirth as an example, you can get from any system to any other by passing through no more than 3 gates.

The base+DLC of XR is "only" 8 Systems. These systems have a total of 25 sectors which have nearly 200 zones. The systems are linked by 18 gates IIRC, (9 linked pairs), which means that there are multiple paths from to/from most Systems. So, such a limit would still allow jumping "anywhere".

I'm not sure if X4's map will have the same designations, but based on the talk of Gates, Orbital Accelerators, and Highways, I'm going to guess we are still using the System-Sector-Zone. But really, till we get our hands on the game, I don't know if any of us can really know what impact removing (or adding back) the JD really will have.

https://youtu.be/1NFl8Yn7guE?t=15m22s

watch the next minute or so... there you see all travel methods within a sector.
Travel drive for short distance.
Trade Lanes for long distance (with drop out at 17:13 by a pirate).. that section is then also offline for a minute or so.

You could also fly all the way in normal space, don't need to use trade lane (just way faster )

And then there would be jumpgates between sectors. There are 49 Sectors in the Universe.

Universe Map with sectors: http://freelancer.wikia.com/wiki/System ... er_Map.svg

One "zone" within a sector http://freelancer.wikia.com/wiki/New_To ... _Tokio.jpg

Still flying from one Sector to another far away took looong. Didn't matter much in Freelancer as the prices where fixed (but stock not, NPC trader) but you couldn't automate stuff, so you could either fight / play story or trade on one evening.

Oh and some goods started spoiling while you where flying, so better not get disrupted by pirates much or spend your time idling.
Missing that a bit in X3.

Now imagine such travel with the NPC traders from X3. You have spoiling wares, fluctuating prices, limited stock and long ass travel distances.....
Yeah, not much fun then.

[spasov33]

Egosoft, please bring back the gates and jumpdrives! It's so space like. And highways are so earth like. Why degrade the way of travel?! I love X games, it's the best thing that happened do space games, but I did't play XR, because of the highways. I was so happy discovering gates. And now there are these fluidish streams through space. It's bad. Please, make the X games great again! (but for real, not like that blond carrot .

[boreas.real]

1. there are jumpgates in X:R and there will be in X4.

2. Highways are a good way to travel between diferent points in space.
They allow a ship to travel fast and large distances, without the need to use thier own engine.
In real life that would save fuel and increase the cargo capacity. Sadly that is not represented in X:R and probably will not be in X4.

I still like the highways and that wont change anytime soon.

(and yes, there are actual real life concepts for interstellar highways)

[A5PECT]

I like the idea of highways. But I had issues with how they were implemented in XR.

The "haphazard noodle" layout bothered me, and the devs have stated and shown that issue has been fixed. Highways in X4 are more-or-less straight lines, with only gradual curves to them.

Activity being restricted to proximity to highways bothered me, and that's been addressed by redesigning the universe layout and giving all ships boost/travel drives and SETA.

[tatakau]

deleted

[spasov33]

Well, I am sure that you know much more of XR than me. As I said I didn't play it.

However, I have read theories about how the UFO-s travel trough space. They do not use thrust or highways. The extraterrestrials experience the universe as a navigation map and use their minds to materialize with their ships at any point, even looks like they fly pretty fast and make hard turns. I don't think that traveling between the stars and planets will ever be possible like in the Startrek movies or even using highways. On short distances - maybe. The real travel will be much closer to using jumpdrive.

Anyway, I just don't like highways. If they remain, please, Egosoft, don't make them like fluids.

[spankahontis]

Putting my support in with OP.

Some of my own notes...

It is a bad user experience, to have 4 different layers of maps in X:R, as opposed to the 2 that we were used to from previous X titles.

It makes no sense that jump drives in previous X titles could jump directly to any gate or jump beacon anywhere in the universe, but in X:R they could only jump one sector at a time, and gates had to be flown through manually. That makes absolutely no sense.

A lot of X:R was built on tedium, and annoying the player and causing delays and waiting. These highways are just tedious.

Everything was cluttered in the X3 Map, it was going the route of Systems with accelerators, like in the Sol System, 1 System (Sector) with 7-12 Sectors inside.
If they did that with the 300+ Sectors in X3 there would be a mess.. You would have to change the very map design itself, X:Rebirth did that, cause Sectors are no longer 1 Background with gates, you can now explore systems; all Systems will need their own Map Level to contain it's Sectors and Zones or it'll be a 600-1000+ Sector cluster ****.

And not all Spacefaring Vehicles are large enough to have Jumpdrives or Travel Drives.
Highways are for the Core sectors that are established, to help millions of colonists travel from A-B, consumers that can only afford Civilian sized Small Vehicles.
They are not for unexplored/tiny colonies on the border.. You don't see Super Highways in the middle of the Amazon Rain Forest, you see them in Cities/towns connected to other cities and towns where civilization is established; highways are supposed to reflect that image, like it or not they are not going to go away because they are just too important for immersion and realism for highly populated areas.

So lets rather have a discussion on how to make them more user friendly and find ways to make them better.

Plus I like the Highways, because of what they are supposed to represent.
I know there is People in here that Love/Hate the Highways, but there has to be a compromise to satisfy both parties.
Saying "I don't like them and everyone agrees with me" Is not going to make them go away, because there are plenty of those that either love them or wished they were improved, Egosoft already said there was areas with no highways to appeal to your group of X Fan, there's enough space for all of us.

[spankahontis]

Does it matter if they retain their ability to have infinite amounts of money?

But sure, why not? We had it with the Shady Business storyline.
And when they run out of money GOD steps in and decommissions a station.

I did see a Habitation Module on the station builder. Maybe we even get Overhead Cost when you build a station.

That was all scripted for those factions, it played no part in the economy as a whole, GOD Engine still did what it did in previous X3 titles, nothing wholly changed other than you had the opportunity to cripple some Empires.

But again, I would love to see that added to X4, to sabotage Corporations to being shut down.

I don't know about an old debate, but common sense tells me we need them, otherwise the game will grind to a halt due to lack of minerals.

Procedural Generation is a double-edged sword, works in some aspects of a game, but not in others.
Why I look at each part of X-Rebirth and X3 and see both games with their own double-edged swords, aspects that make them great with sides that let them down.

One decision they either create Spawning Asteroids through procedural generation or they go the extreme route of creating an insane amount of content to make sure there is enough asteroids out there in the X Universe to last for millions of hours of gameplay which I feel (Unless proven otherwise) is a waste of resources and time.
But i'm not going to take sides about this, it's a necessary evil.

So when A appears on a station but you didn't see it get there it breaks your imagination, but when B appears in space and you didn't see it get there it doesn't break your imagination? This is why discussions are so difficult. That double standard.

As I pointed out in my last reply to you above, this isn't a Black and White Issue, or "You're either for or against? Therefore you have Double Standards", I find what you said just now a bit childish.
It's a more complex issue of what place Procedural Generation has in a game?
Like it or not Procedural Generation is here to to stay, but what parts belong in the X Universe is the real question far beyond saying it's "Double Standards"; not here to score points.

Nicely done. Using the last part of one paragraph and the beginning of the next paragraph as a single statement.

But fine, don't listen to me. You can look at the statistics.
Just because Rebirth has a newer engine and is of a later date, that doesn't make it an improvement on the previous game.

In comparison to X3 I thus far see 4 improvements in Foundations: Expanded production requirements, Shipyards producing ships, Station Builder & Game Engine. But gameplay-wise I see Rebirth, and that is not an improvement.

Frankly, it could be a carbon copy of the X Trilogy and I question whether that would satisfy you?
I've talked to those that love Rebirth, to those that hate it and those that are undecided, but they all shared something in common, they had legitimate claims to their argument that I agree with or thought hard about before disagreeing, but those were good debates.
But it's always the same with you. You ignore X3's flaws, hold it up as the Gold Standard to bash Egosoft in general without any contribution other than "BRING BACK X3", you might claim you don't but, everytime it's the same old game you play, leading to the same outcome.
To this you are on your own, even negative critics are reasonable and offer something of value.

And you can post that Stat a million times over, it doesn't account for Offline or Pirated Copies.

When it comes to Game Sales, however.. X:Rebirth is the most successful game in the X Series.
Reviews on release were a disaster, it was a mess, Egosoft have constantly acknowledged that and keep fixing the bugs.
If there is a graphic for refunds that complete the picture then lets see it?
So it works both ways.

Since I was talking about trading in X3, this option is invalid. And it is also linked to the least interesting part of X3AP: the Stock Market.

Derivatives are the buying/selling of Stock from more than just the Stock Market.
Through Middle-men you can buy anything, it's about taking risks to whether what you buy is at good value to sell onwards.

This is how a real Economy works or at least Egosoft is building something near enough to it.
If that doesn't appeal to you? Find a Shop Simulator or wait for Star Citizen.

[Graaf]

Frankly, it could be a carbon copy of the X Trilogy and I question whether that would satisfy you?

Of course not. I want X4 to be an improved X3.
Rebirth isn't.
Foundation (although an improved Rebirth) isn't looking to be.

And you can post that Stat a million times over, it doesn't account for Offline ...

It doesn't have to. That's not how stats are used.

When it comes to Game Sales, however.. X:Rebirth is the most successful game in the X Series.

Which doesn't say much if the previous game looks te be the game that is being played.

If there is a graphic for refunds that complete the picture then lets see it?
So it works both ways.

A) If I can't complete the picture, it looks like the best sold game is being outplayed by its predecessor.
B) If I can complete the picture, it may look like the possibly not best sold game is still being outplayed by its predecessor.
How is that going to work out?

This is how a real Economy works or at least Egosoft is building something near enough to it.
If that doesn't appeal to you? Find a Shop Simulator or wait for Star Citizen.

Because it is more realistic doesn't mean it makes for better gameplay.
Why doesn't anyone ever tell me to go back to X3? It's always an inferior game you tell me to go play instead of Rebirth, but hardly ever X3.

[Mick Maidens]

I think Egosoft may have got an incorrect impression. I bought X Rebirth had a quick look and went back to X3 TC, I bought the game to support Egosoft I suspect I was not alone. Its a game, it has to be fun, I am not that interested in the science or making it "realistic", if that means it gets boring. Highways are boring, lets be honest they are boring is real life why would you want that in a game? Even in TC I avoid the Terran sectors. Even big sectors get boring it takes too long to do anything. The best things about X3 (in my opinion) Jump drives, huge map with of lots of sectors, the freedom of the sandbox, boarding with marines, flying multiple ships. And the fact it is difficult. So the balance is to keep things moving, but still make it complicated. Personally I hate missiles and Area effect weapons. I like the fact i can repair my own ship (but it is painful) or pay to have it repaired, I have a choice. In my opinion the economy side is fun but only so you can build more / bigger ships. I am not really interested in wandering around stations, but would love to be able to join my marines boarding a ship. Now there would be a mini-game.

[Erqco]

I think Egosoft may have got an incorrect impression. I bought X Rebirth had a quick look and went back to X3 TC, I bought the game to support Egosoft I suspect I was not alone. Its a game, it has to be fun, I am not that interested in the science or making it "realistic", if that means it gets boring. Highways are boring, lets be honest they are boring is real life why would you want that in a game? Even in TC I avoid the Terran sectors. Even big sectors get boring it takes too long to do anything. The best things about X3 (in my opinion) Jump drives, huge map with of lots of sectors, the freedom of the sandbox, boarding with marines, flying multiple ships. And the fact it is difficult. So the balance is to keep things moving, but still make it complicated. Personally I hate missiles and Area effect weapons. I like the fact i can repair my own ship (but it is painful) or pay to have it repaired, I have a choice. In my opinion the economy side is fun but only so you can build more / bigger ships. I am not really interested in wandering around stations, but would love to be able to join my marines boarding a ship. Now there would be a mini-game.

Like he said, YES YES AND YES. That minigame idea looks very good to me. I will fix the path finding that wasn't very good, I like the idea of the modular factories in Rebirth, the X3 system wasn't good.
I am wondering if Egosoft will be doing X4 or Rebirth 2, I can only wait and hope that they will make something fun.

[Vandragorax]

Wow this thread is still going? And getting rather off-topic...

[Honved]

On the one hand, flying across a huge sector was always boring in X3, even with SETA. You still had to keep an occasional eye out for anything in your way or capable of attacking you, and it got tedious. On the other hand, space is SUPPOSED to be big, and having it divided up into tiny sectors takes away the feel of vastness.

Rather than have massive "constructions" (highways) to make crossing larger sectors faster, twin rows (one in each direction) of "boosters", (vaguely like accelerators) that increase the speed of your ship significantly (which then bleeds off over the course of the next minute or so) between significant groups of stations would make more sense. You fly through one of the booster rings and your ship speed jumps up to 1000+, gradually slowing until you reach the next booster to bring it back up again. You can still steer in or out of the lane at any time, and there's plenty of space to maneuver clear of the "lane" for passing, as long as you get back in the lane by the time you reach the next booster. There are no "mass constructions" cluttering space, just rows of booster rings spaced a few thousand klicks apart.

That doesn't require "spaghetti" highways cluttering up your view of space, just a few rows of widely spaced dots in straigh lines between the various local clusters of stations and the jump gates. And PLEASE, don't overdo the traffic in the lanes. MOST of the traffic would and should be local, traveling directly between the various stations in thier small local cluster, with some going along the "highways" (booster lanes) from one local area to another in the same general region, and a few going all the way to the jump gates to access other regions.

Heavy traffic makes no sense, as that depicts a densely settled area with no danger and nothing left to explore. X3 was primarily semi-"wilderness", poorly mapped, some areas heavily contested or totally unsettled, with pirate enclaves not being cleared out regularly, and frequent incursions by both Xenon and Kha'ak.

[Varyah]

I think Egosoft may have got an incorrect impression. I bought X Rebirth had a quick look and went back to X3 TC, I bought the game to support Egosoft I suspect I was not alone. Its a game, it has to be fun, I am not that interested in the science or making it "realistic", if that means it gets boring. Highways are boring, lets be honest they are boring is real life why would you want that in a game? Even in TC I avoid the Terran sectors. Even big sectors get boring it takes too long to do anything. The best things about X3 (in my opinion) Jump drives, huge map with of lots of sectors, the freedom of the sandbox, boarding with marines, flying multiple ships. And the fact it is difficult. So the balance is to keep things moving, but still make it complicated. Personally I hate missiles and Area effect weapons. I like the fact i can repair my own ship (but it is painful) or pay to have it repaired, I have a choice. In my opinion the economy side is fun but only so you can build more / bigger ships. I am not really interested in wandering around stations, but would love to be able to join my marines boarding a ship. Now there would be a mini-game.

Like he said, YES YES AND YES. That minigame idea looks very good to me.

I think minigames are almost always a terrible idea. It's fun to do them once or twice (e.g. solving a sudoku during one questline) or if they are completely optional and separated from the rest of the actual gameplay (e.g. Gwent in Witcher) such that you can engage when you feel like it. But if they are obligatory for some core gameplay feature it almost always get's annoying because minigames tend to interrupt the actual gameplay. It doesn't make sense to introduce a 30sec long shooter level to every boarding maneuver in a space sim where all you do is flying and commanding ships - unless the shooter thing is a larger part of the gameplay not only seen in the occasional boarding operation; of course then Egosoft would have to spend a few years developing an engaging shooter experience to add some real gameplay value.

[Tomonor]

I know I'm kind of late to chime in on this topic, and maybe this have been already said in the the previous 20 pages, but here I go:

In my opinion, the biggest flaw of the jumpdrive was that it was an instant travel method. You could have moved entire fleets in the blink of an eye, and that's what Egosoft also recognized.

And they did come up with a solution for it. However, I think they are still medicating it the wrong way; maybe it will work out, maybe not, I really don't know.

What I do know is that in previous X games, there was no sense of distance in the universe, only in a single sector/system. You could have jumped from Kingdom End to Omicron Lyrae in the same timespan than from Kingdom End to Argon Prime for example. There was no actual sense of travelling greater distances in the galaxy, and that's where the whole imbalance came from.

Now, I know that:
a, it was done this way because of a technical limitation, namely because of how the previous X games' engines were coded;
b, travelling in a warp tube really is a boring process. Greatest example is X Rebirth's highway system, which in fact was a sort of hyper tunnel similarly of how one imagines a wormhole. Now, imagine having to sit in that tunnel for maybe tens of minutes while there is literally nothing to do. That's realism for you.

I'm pretty sure it's too late to suggest groundbreaking ideas to Egosoft now that they have settled on this teleportation system. But if I were them, I wouldn't have eliminated the jumpdrive entirely. Especially since the jumpdrive was the driving force behind their first game that started the lore of our beloved universe. There must be a way to make it work.