Jumpdrives got me into X3, highways just dropped me off XR, and we're legion

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wellmadman
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Post by wellmadman » Fri, 30. Mar 18, 16:12

That's a nonsense argument. Especially for X games, which are always rather hardware demanding and where your goal is empire building, thus amassing more assets.
No its not, yes I will say you right about getting more assets, but If you or they have a low end PC, then they can STOP getting ship assets after they get a Main ship and fleet, where as under a teleport system they MUST get more fleets, which would add to the lag on those low end systems. This is true.

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The Q
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Post by The Q » Fri, 30. Mar 18, 17:19

Yes, it's true, that more assets have a negative impact on performance. But it's not a proper argument against Teleportation. Or any other gameplay aspect for that matter. The aim of every game development should be to create an interesting and fun to play game, and once you have that optimise it so that it runs on a range of hardware combinations. And not to design a game which runs on every hardware possible, which is nonsensical anyhow, and design the game afterwards. Following your logic they would have to remove station building, make the universe super small, and remove the feature of flying multiple ships, as this will likewise just lead to the player amassing more assets, which will have a negative impact on performance.

What you described, putting thousands of identical ships everywhere, is one possible way that people who do not like the removal of jumpdrive and the implementation may follow. More likely, however, is that people will adopt to the change either by using the new gameplay aspects or by modding their game.
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Post by MegaJohnny » Fri, 30. Mar 18, 17:37

In your experience, how did this play out in XR, if you played it? I always assumed OOS activity was pretty efficient on memory and CPU.

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Post by wellmadman » Fri, 30. Mar 18, 17:38

Following your logic they would have to remove station building, make the universe super small, and remove the feature of flying multiple ships, as this will likewise just lead to the player amassing more assets, which will have a negative impact on performance.
My logic? Stations and Fabs use MUCH MUCH less CPU data then ships do as stations DONT move so the game does not have to run OSS movement or IS movement, I will say in system FABS/ and stations use a LOT more GPU, but most people on lower spec machines more worryed about CPU over GPU its only at higher comp specs they matter, and you dont have to make it smaller, as you said the more you have the more game will slow down. So I am RIGHT in saying that teleportion WILL lead to more lag later in the game, due to more ships running about. This IS true, in my X3 game even tho I could have a fleet running happyly in EVERY system, I dont just in case it lags my game, but having Teleportion WILL force me to do that in my game? Why would I wish to be FORCED to place a fleet in everysystem, also I know JJ with will modded or added into the game, but really to make it so you have to (in an unmodded game) have a fleet everywhere will Raise the bar for the base game, which will in turn lead to less players = less money made for ES and even tho you may wish otherwise, Money does in fact make the world go round.

**** Just added ->
In your experience, how did this play out in XR, if you played it? I always assumed OOS activity was pretty efficient on memory and CPU. **

yes it is, but on the lower end systems every little helps and as a player who was Once at that end of the specurm I can tell you it hurts the game play a lot. when you get over the limit and I sure even you will admit that once you get 4-10-20 fleets to cover systems/areas in the game it will add to the lag on these lower specs? I pretty sure my current computer could handle 2 fleets per system, but I do like to think of everyone.
P.s I play XT for 10 mins and really disliked the Highways and was like WTF I am in a ship called Shunk(a name for DRUGS) and I cannot EVER get out of it hashetag uninstall, delete

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Post by LittleBird » Fri, 30. Mar 18, 18:22

@wellmadman
You describe a problem specific for X3 and before. With X-Rebirth egosoft created a new engine so new X games use multicore. Just the thought about OOS activity could slow down your game is absurd now.
If you have more ships and fleets near your location it will have an effect. Sure.
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Post by The Q » Fri, 30. Mar 18, 18:29

A smaller universe means that you and the AI have fewer sectors and overall fewer assets. Thus also fewer scripts running on them. Ergo better performance. No Station building means trading is super limited, ergo again reduces required calculation of station production and trading (ships flying between your own and AI stations). Not having multiple ships to fly can lead to a reduced amount of assets. Thus a smaller amount of remote and autonomous traders. Thus again, there are not as many scripts to run resulting in better performance.

Whether you like my examples, which follow exactly your logic of the need to reduce assets in order to guarantee a stable performance on low end hardware, or not, your logic is still flawed. If your system is already hardly able to run X Rebirth, then following the experiences from previous X game releases, it will have a hard time running X4. (Successors usually have at least slightly higher system requirements.) Also, if your previous x games (featuring the jumpdrive) were limited by your system's performance, then not having the jumpdrive cannot be the argument for performance problems in the future. Likewise if you previously compromised in your playing style to guarantee a proper framerate, having to compromise to maintain a stable framerate in X4 cannot be a counter argument to teleportation. (If it was previously possible, why shouldn't it be now?) As for your thousands ships argument, who says that you even need that many ships around the universe?! Ten, parked in key locations, in combination with the travel drive could be enough to get anywhere in your favourite ship. If they are just parked at a station or idling in space, they hardly have an impact on performance. (No movement == no OOS or IS calculation, right?) As for fleet battle, that's exactly the part Egosoft wants to limit. The player shouldn't be able to bring their own fleet to every combat situation in mere seconds or few minutes. Instead you will have to plan ahead, build up logistics and position your assets smarter. And yes, that means that you will have to change your playing style from what you're used to in X3.
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Post by gbjbaanb » Sun, 1. Apr 18, 18:43

The whole argument about JDs affecting trade is easy to resolve: make them expensive to buy and/or operate.

If my trade ship stocked full of Boron plankton travelled a few sectors to sell them for 1000c profit, it'll be sent to slowly fly there. If it could jump there and sell them for 1000c but the fuel cost 1200c, then I won't. Add the cost of the JD itself as 1 million c, and no trader will bother to put them on.
It really is that simple.

As for warships, making your battle fleet slowly fly where you want it (ie pirates who will be long gone by the time it gets there) means you won't bother to have battle fleet - and that's boring for a game. alternatively, you'll create lots of small battle fleets, but if they cannot fight back to protect your ships from pirates, then that too is pointless, and suddenly, its looking like the game is simply one of making enough money to cover costs of losing ships. and that will be both frustrating and dull.

CBJ said that trade was overcome with a handful of NPCs running universe trader scripts. Fair enough. There are ways to overcome this - but they reduce the enjoyment of playing, like if you have universe-wide comms, then trade will be more consumers and suppliers talking to each other and the only trade the player gets is hired as delivery duties for a fixed price. If you want trade to be opportunistic, then you have to scrap universe-wide comms so players pick up what they think they can make a profit on, and take it places they think they will sell it at a good price for. NPCs can do the same, but that will be a lot less predictable. Or you can have delivery contracts (without crazy time limits) and you then get trade available to all without any concept of being undercut by the opposition.

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Post by Leszek » Sun, 1. Apr 18, 19:37

Just as I loved XBTF from the first moment, I loved the whole X series too. I spent thousands of hours on X games. Perhaps there are many rational reasons for the changes that were made in X-R, but the fact is that this is the first and only game in the series in which, after finishing the story (one month after the premiere) I stopped playing and I never came back. It was not bugs that was a problem - I omitted them by manually editing scripts. The main sin of X-R was the lack of immersion. For anyone who has some knowledge about the construction of the universe, the idea of space pipes connecting planets and planetary systems is absolutely nonsensical. The creation of space pipes in X-R, automatically placed it in my mind at the level of arcade games. While from the previous games of the X series I still remember many great moments spent during sleepless nights, unfortunately when I think about X-R, I see only coloured pipes, drawing some nonsense spiral corridors. Of course, developers have the full right to create their own vision of the game, but I still feel a huge regret that something that filled my imagination for so many years, evolved into such a great simplification, only to improve some game mechanisms, which in reality were the least important.
I would like to point out that this is only my personal opinion and I did not intend to offend anyone, especially the developers of games that have given me so much pleasure for so many years. However, the fact is that, if the creators of this game could come up with a different kind of mechanics than cosmic tubes and bring back a sense of being in space, (not in the flipper :), it would give me a lot of joy. In the X-BTF - X3 series, developers managed to create something that developers games like ED or SC do not have a chance - a piece of our own (discovered and managed by us) realistic universe. I still hope to get it back.

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Post by LittleBird » Sun, 1. Apr 18, 20:00

gbjbaanb wrote:The whole argument about JDs affecting trade is easy to resolve: make them expensive to buy and/or operate.

If my trade ship stocked full of Boron plankton travelled a few sectors to sell them for 1000c profit, it'll be sent to slowly fly there. If it could jump there and sell them for 1000c but the fuel cost 1200c, then I won't. Add the cost of the JD itself as 1 million c, and no trader will bother to put them on.
It really is that simple.
In that case the JD becomes a powerfull tool the longer you play. Later on you have the credits. And I can not see that jump trading would be loss-making everytime. Especially later on when you trade with expensive stuff. On top of that your ability of jumping your fleets will hurt the game balance.
Besides using JD to jump a few sectors instead of flying the distance is not the big problem. But using JD to jump many sectors is.


Following your suggestion making JD using expensive I think about time costs instead of money. Because with credit costs you have all the problems described above. But no matter how rich you are you can not buy time. So what about recharge time depending on the jump distance?
In any case it should be: recharge time > time you need for back travel.
Using such a JD for trading would be one way only. Moving your fleet with it means it will be stucked for a wile.
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Post by ajime » Mon, 2. Apr 18, 05:04

Leszek wrote:Just as I loved XBTF from the first moment, I loved the whole X series too. I spent thousands of hours on X games. Perhaps there are many rational reasons for the changes that were made in X-R, but the fact is that this is the first and only game in the series in which, after finishing the story (one month after the premiere) I stopped playing and I never came back. It was not bugs that was a problem - I omitted them by manually editing scripts. The main sin of X-R was the lack of immersion. For anyone who has some knowledge about the construction of the universe, the idea of space pipes connecting planets and planetary systems is absolutely nonsensical. The creation of space pipes in X-R, automatically placed it in my mind at the level of arcade games. While from the previous games of the X series I still remember many great moments spent during sleepless nights, unfortunately when I think about X-R, I see only coloured pipes, drawing some nonsense spiral corridors. Of course, developers have the full right to create their own vision of the game, but I still feel a huge regret that something that filled my imagination for so many years, evolved into such a great simplification, only to improve some game mechanisms, which in reality were the least important.
I would like to point out that this is only my personal opinion and I did not intend to offend anyone, especially the developers of games that have given me so much pleasure for so many years. However, the fact is that, if the creators of this game could come up with a different kind of mechanics than cosmic tubes and bring back a sense of being in space, (not in the flipper :), it would give me a lot of joy. In the X-BTF - X3 series, developers managed to create something that developers games like ED or SC do not have a chance - a piece of our own (discovered and managed by us) realistic universe. I still hope to get it back.
Damned the tubes. They are so fun to align it perfectly. :D

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Post by Honved » Mon, 2. Apr 18, 16:12

I've got to agree with the sentiment about the stupid tubes cluttering space. They're an eyesore, and nonsensical in so many ways that I can't get past. If they were replaced by a line of "accelerators" spaced about 5-10Km apart, each boosting your speed by 500-1000m/s or something, that's 1% of the materials and costs, and merely "immersion stretching", rather than "breaking".

JDs could be kept if they restricted them to only a handful of points, or to a limited range. The latter could be done through E-cell cost, where it takes at least 10X the current amount of E-cells to jump. A capital ship could only carry enough E-cells to jump 3-5 sectors, and many light fighters would only be able to jump one sector without stripping out guns and shields to fit the E-cells. That presents a steep cost for traders to offset, making most long distance high-speed transport of goods unaffordable, but still possible for some high-value items. A fleet could jump a few sectors to reach a nearby threat, but they'd have to resupply with E-cells in order to get home, or take the slow way back.

In essence, that would allow one to make longer trips with a few stops along the way for refuelling, if it was important enough to justify the cost, but not something you would do on a routine basis. It would also mean that "regional" fleets would need to be placed to cover scattered assets, rather than one central fleet that could jump anywhere at a moment's notice, as is the most sensible answer with unlimited jump capability.

The unrestricted jumpdrive as in X3 just creates too many unbalanced and unbalanceable issues. The fact that most missions were designed with it in mind, and therefore all-but required it, meant that you had no choice but to use it.

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Post by Silla » Mon, 2. Apr 18, 16:44

the game isnt even out now and people are already complaining :roll:

There are people complaining about realism in a game that isnt realistic to begin with.

There are people complaining about a fast travel method akin to gates because they wont allow something different from other games and television.

There are people complaining that they wont play the game.

There are people complaining that they have to play something differently even so they havnt even played it yet.

There are people complaing about X4 being the same as XR in every regard even so it obviusly wont be.

There are people complaining because they think to know better.

There are people complaining because they cant stand the idea that someone else thinks differently.

People like to complain alot. :roll:

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Post by Alan Phipps » Mon, 2. Apr 18, 17:52

@ Silla: Well that's complaining about people complaining! :D

Let's get back onto thread topic please.
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Post by Killjaeden » Mon, 2. Apr 18, 19:06

Silla wrote:the game isnt even out now and people are already complaining
The thing many people dont understand about game development is, that the major, game defining decisions are made at the beginning of development and - once decided - are often so difficult or labour expensive to change at a later date, that it is uneconomical to change after release because many things depend on the initial decisions.

Discussing core game concepts after release of the game is for the most part worthless, as it can only be considered for the next game (if there will be one).

Egosoft has already said that several decisions are not final/ some stuff has not beeing figured out how to do yet. That means NOW is the time to discuss it - for some stuff it will already be too late by now.

Doesn't mean all arguments are equally strong... and yet there is some things that Egosoft dont appear to have considered from the answers we have so far. No developer is perfect or considers everything during development, Egosoft is no exception - as has been demonstrated by certain weaknesses (popular opinion) in game design in Rebirth for example (e.g. small talk minigames and highway minigame) that are results of developer decisions and not result of lack of ressources. They recognized certain weaknesses - and this highlights the problems, nobody is perfect and can foresee everything.
Foresight is better than hindsight. Discussing game concepts is important in identifying key points one has not himself considered. Thinking that either side knows everything or has considered everything is a gross overestimation of this sides intelligence and experience. And that goes for both ways. Discussing game aspects in detail reduces the chance of overseeing something

They havent completed and tested their universe mechanic ideas yet according to what they mentioned in the streams, so even they can't possibly tell yet, if they can manage creating all the other universe mechanic aspects in such a way, that no loss of game/simulation quality will occur when not using Jumpdrives (because having jumpdrives simplifies things for universe balancing algorithm/AI for example). I predict this will be a very very large challenge - as i described a few pages back.

Opinions are opinions - but there are several arguments in favor of not axing JD's in principle, that dont just rely on "i dont like <insert>". I haven't seen a single striking argument why a compromise of keeping the JD's but reducing their overpoweredness by imposing certain limits and restrictions would not be possible from gameplay / gamedesign perspective.

Just as reminder - teleportation would be just as overpowered if it wouldnt be restricted like Egosoft said they would in X4 (just people, limited range, unlocking only over game time, etc...). Same goes for Jumpdrive.
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I would already consider it a win (and reassuring gesture) if Egosoft would acknowledge that the JD in principle might have some merrit after all and consider that while designing their current universe mechanics, so that they dont lose the ability to implement it without major headaches at a later date, should their decision/opinion/need change in future.
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Post by A5PECT » Mon, 2. Apr 18, 23:05

I'm more partial to cruise drives as different ships having different cruise speeds and accelerations would be another avenue to diversify and balance ships. It would also allow for interception rather than forcing defenders to meet attackers at gates/beacons in every instance.
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Post by Fleabum » Mon, 2. Apr 18, 23:29

Jump drives is just one aspect, from a lore perspective, how will it be explained that jump drives suddenly disappeared from the X universe in-between X3 and X4 and this magical bumper lane system appeared... I am sure you can come up with some story, but how realistic and logical will it be.

When a developer announces another release in a series, there are certain expectations that it will be continuation of the series. Look at it this way, there is X3 and XR, they are set in a parallel universes, its got to be, there are no jump drives. No Khaak :)

X3 and XR have have different target markets, for me one is more strategic, to be played with HOTAS, keyboard, mouse, amassing massive fleets of ships and stations and one is more arcade, designed with minigames, useless eyecandy (loot boxes? what the....) and a controller in mind. If you read the forums at the time of XR release, there was a lot of X3 players that expressed dissatisfaction with XR. This maybe was due to the fact they were wanting the next X game to be released to be X4 and it wasn't. Yes, a fault of the X3 players expecting a product that wasn't being designed. But this time its different, its X4!

Move on a few years and the next game has been announced, X4... Weee! At last! But due to the release of XR and expectations there is an issue, some avid X3 players have seen the showcased game, and noticed that its more of XR in it than X3. There are fears and they raise these concerns on the forums so their concerns can be heard, if a developer does not get feedback from their target customers before the game is released, then it is too late. If they hear the concerns during the development cycle then things can be (possibly) adjusted or tweaked prior to full release. Because you may disagree with what they say or their point of view, its not complaining.

The new game is based on the XR engine, with XR flight dynamics, XR travel systems, XR controller systems, XR ships, XR weapons and XR lore then it isn't really X4, its XR2. Its like XR with more ships, better trading systems, fleets and stations. I really, really hope it isn't but this is the gut feeling I get from what I have seen so far.

All in all though, it doesn't matter one way or the other so long as the XR engine is adaptable enough for modders to work their magic and implement jump drives.

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Post by X2-Illuminatus » Tue, 3. Apr 18, 12:17

Fleabum wrote:Jump drives is just one aspect, from a lore perspective, how will it be explained that jump drives suddenly disappeared from the X universe in-between X3 and X4 and this magical bumper lane system appeared... I am sure you can come up with some story, but how realistic and logical will it be.
Highways have been introduced in X3AP already, which also sees the first gate shutdowns. If one technology (gates and the gate dependent jumpdrive) fails, it makes a lot of sense for a society to research and use another.
While I understand the sentiment of receiving logical explanations for changes of ingame features, when it comes to game design it's usually much more important to get a consistent gameplay within one game than to provide explanations for every feature changed, removed or introduced since the last one.
Fleabum wrote:The new game is based on the XR engine, with XR flight dynamics, XR travel systems, XR controller systems, XR ships, XR weapons and XR lore then it isn't really X4, its XR2. Its like XR with more ships, better trading systems, fleets and stations. I really, really hope it isn't but this is the gut feeling I get from what I have seen so far.
Well, that Egosoft uses the XR Engine shouldn't be surprising to anyone. I think the advantages of a newly developed engine over one celebrating its 20th birthday soon are obvious. As for the flight dynamics, you can turn off the flight assist mode already in X Rebirth (since version 3.60), if that's what you're referring to. The travel system will be quite different to the one in XR in a number of ways. This has actually been discussed in great detail in this very topic here. X4 is developed with mouse and keyboard as the primary controllers in mind. Not sure where you have got the information from that XR ships are used? In this thread linolafett tells a bit about the design decisions and process of the new ships and also explains why reusing old models is not that simple. Additionally, we saw quite some new ships in the different livestreams already. (In the German forum Terraner X put some screenshots together.) Nothing has been said about specific weapon types so far, so again I wonder where you have got your information from? The last livestream even had a segment about a different weapon aiming behaviour. As for the lore it has actually been said that lore-wise X4 will play in the same universe, but in a different part than X Rebirth. X4 will also tell a different story, not connected to but playing after the events of XR. (So much for your parallel universe theory. ;))
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Post by GT182 » Sat, 7. Apr 18, 03:49

Bring back the TC jump drive. Highways as in X Rebirth don't impress me and many others as well. It was great being able to jump to different systems and not have to travel from one to the other after others were discovered. And after all were discovered it was even greater to jump across the whole system. It even helped you save your own bacon. Or at least give us the option.... we're the ones paying for it. When the developers don't listen to the requests of those buying their work, they suffer in sales.

And bring back being the Assassin. I never like being a Trader. Hunting down the enemy, escaped prisoners, and the like was a blast. And well worth the credits it paid.

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Post by LittleBird » Sat, 7. Apr 18, 09:12

GT182 wrote:Or at least give us the option.... we're the ones paying for it. When the developers don't listen to the requests of those buying their work, they suffer in sales.
Keep in mind we are only a few people on the forum. Speaking for all does not work. You can easily find people who are happy without the jump drives or who want a change in the jump system.
So who should they listen? Flip a coin? :wink:

No. The devs can listen to our suggestions. Not in terms of "20 people request X let us consider X not Y" but in "There is a discussion about game element X maybe there is a point we have not think of".
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Post by Jeraal » Sat, 7. Apr 18, 15:26

As much as I love JD's, I would be more than happy to give them up to get rid of the space tubes.
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