Humane dispatch.

[greypanther]

Can there be such a thing as " humane dispatch " when it comes to killing an animal? It has always struck me as odd concept, surely dead is dead? As long as no intended or extended cruelty is involved, does it matter?

This has come to mind recently because we have started, again, to feed the wild birds over this winter, I like songbirds you see, they are a nice sound to wake up to in the morning. I like to increase the likelihood of their survival.

The thing is that there is a side effect to this feeding usually, Rats; other rodents and Grey Squirrels in particular. Now I would never put poison down, even though it is always suggested and used by most, that is just way too cruel because of the length of time it takes for the creature to die in a very painful way. Therefore I considered trapping them in in a cage trap and releasing them a mile or two away. Fits my ethics as a veggie too!

Thing is I have now just found out it is illegal to release a trapped squirrel in the UK, you are obliged to humanely dispatch it. Which brought the odd phrase to my mind. The law almost seems to be encouraging killing of animals, which is odd. I would say from my experience, most people would be neither equipped or willing to kill the squirrels in a non cruel way, which surely means the increased use of poison. Which is one reason I considered trapping in a cage and remote release.

From the above link:

The grey squirrel is regarded as an invasive non-native species following its inclusion under Schedule 9 of the WCA. Grey squirrels are also listed in the IUCN international list of 100 worst invasive non-native species. This highlights the damage that grey squirrels cause to our native flora and fauna; a problem severe enough to be recognised at a level of global significance. As such, the grey squirrel is regarded as a pest species and is afforded no protection under the WCA. Under Schedule 9 of the WCA, it is illegal to release a grey squirrel into the wild, or allow one to escape.


This means if you trap one, you are obliged to humanely dispatch it. You must not let it go as this act would be illegal.

This all seems an odd way of going about things. I am fairly certain if I was to set a caged trap for rats etc, I would end up with a grey squirrel at some point too, they infest the area. Which means of course I will now not be doing so!

It also brought the whole issue of " Meat is murder " to mind. I have always considered Halal and Kosher killing methods to be excessively cruel, where is the concept: " Humane" in that then?

I would be particularly interested in how meat eaters think about the lives they are taking to satisfy their needs. Do many even consider how their meat dies? Does it matter how it dies? I mean for the very vast majority in the " first world ", there is a huge disconnect between the food and the source, which is unhealthy in my opinion.

So what do people think about this? Or does it not even cross your mind? Is all on the earth and beyond, put there for human use?

Lastly, I am confused by the use of the word Humane in all this. Just what is Humane and how does it fit here? My opinion of humans is generally very poor, so I find it all odd. Does it matter how someone or something dies? It is going to happen to all life after all.

[burger1]

There's feeders which are intended to deter squirrels, etc... either by weight mechanisms or design. You can also buy attachments like squirrel baffles and seed catchers to prevent seeds (some of the seed) from falling on the ground. Some baffles can prevent some song birds from being able to use the feeder which is not obvious. There's also different types of bird seed. Some is a no waste mix which can produce less waste.

Don't use ground feeders.

[Alan Phipps]

".. most people would be neither equipped or willing to kill the ...... in a non cruel way .."

This I can support. You probably would not be too surprised at the resistance and sometimes inability of many of the public (and even some allegedly more hardened folks such as the military etc) to kill a 'cute' or 'defenceless' creature even if they intend to eat it or just to end already present suffering.

Sometimes it is just lack of knowledge of how best to do the deed, other times it is just squeamishness causing them to botch or unnecessarily extend the task. Still other times it may be that they have a concern that what they need to do may be unethical or illegal and that they will get into trouble with some authority.

Sometimes the people on the spot consider themselves damned if they do, and damned if they don't.

Then there are those few who deliberately go out to cause unnecessary suffering for such animals (think of incidents such as with slow poisons, snares, airguns and maybe crossbows targeting wildlife or pets) - but we needn't go there.

[Masterbagger]

I think I am far less cruel than nature would be. Speaking of nature, your rat problem could be solved with an outdoor cat.

[greypanther]

The squirrel prof feeders do indeed keep some birds away and worse still they took a neighbours one down and dismantled it to get to the peanuts. We use the Sunflower hearts for instance, which reduce the mess but do not stop it, especially when you consider we also provide Niger seed for the many Gold finches, which is very messy. We have never used a ground feeder, but do use raised flat feeders, which the squirrels love.

I am not at all surprised Alan, I used to know an ex Para sergeant, who described how when he first arrived on a survival type course, many of his mates struggled to kill the cute rabbit. He went on to fight in the Falklands. When I knew him he really didn't care about animals and I witnessed him dispatching feral pigeons, quickly and humanely. He said he had no problem on the course either, but that as he had shot at Argentinians, a pigeon was never going to cause him pause!

We have a cat, though not really an outdoor one. There are many cats in our area, the rats are in charge though...

[Len5]

Some animals like rats are spread over the world by humans and in many places, especially in cities, they don't have (m)any natural enemies, so we have to take that place.
Also rats breed like crazy and are a health hazard to us, so just kill them.
I don't like the idea, but maybe that's because we tend to humanize animals too much. (If that's the right way to say it.)

I would be particularly interested in how meat eaters think about the lives they are taking to satisfy their needs. Do many even consider how their meat dies? Does it matter how it dies?

To me it's more important how it lived than how it died.

[Hank001]

Here we have all kinds of problems with wild animals that were either introduced by wildlife officials with no clues on the impact or simply released into the wild and their populations exploded. For instance when I grew up here if you'd told me we'd have huge problems with packs of wild coyotes, I'd have called you crazy. There wasn't Coyotes dor a thousand miles from Southern Illinois outside of the Saint Louis zoo! Now. their yips and howls go on all night! Not to mention their dangers to domestic animals and even humans crazy enough ro stomp the woods at night.

Humane or not, trapping or otherwise dispatching these beasts I don't loose much sleep over. But good luck with that. Now there are thousands of them. And don't get me started on bobcats, wild boars and other problems we have here now that we didn't have or were rare 20 years ago.

[greypanther]

Yes it seems I will just have to " man up " and get things done. Or so I was told today in the real world, not a problem actually. Just I am still confused by the wording of the law and do not understand the governments logic behind it. ( Yet I guess I do, I just think it is pointless. ) I know for a fact that the grey squirrel is very destructive and harmful to the flora and fauna of the UK, so am baffled as to why the damn things have not been culled already, especially considering the culling of Badgers, that the powers that be, deem necessary.

[Morkonan]

....So what do people think about this? Or does it not even cross your mind? Is all on the earth and beyond, put there for human use?

Lastly, I am confused by the use of the word Humane in all this. Just what is Humane and how does it fit here? My opinion of humans is generally very poor, so I find it all odd. Does it matter how someone or something dies? It is going to happen to all life after all.

It is also illegal to "relocate" most pest-classed "trapped" animals in most places in the US.

Grey Squirrels are territorial. If you have a squirrel problem, relocating or even "humane killing" of them will not achieve any results if you're trying to clear a small area of "pest" problems. Another squirrel will take its place, competing for the area that is now free of competition... Squirrel problems "inside" the house, typically in attics and crawlspaces, are solved by limiting access. Cut away any branches or trees that help enable access, block possible access points with steel mesh, etc. Placing things that might scare squirrels, like "Owl dummies" might help, too.

Rats are attracted by food and safe nesting areas. Remove both and you solve the problem. ie: No easy food and an area that attracts their predators is a good choice. Keep grass low, access to the house blocked, no easy "cover" for them to nest in, etc..

There are scents you can use, too, to discourage certain pests. A somewhat popular choice is "fox scent" which is basically fox urine. But, it stinks and its effectiveness might not be that great. It also has to be reapplied.

Also of possible use are "mothballs." This can really irritate the sinuses of small rodents and the like. But, it's also irritating to humans and can, at certain levels, have health-effects. If you can smell it in your living spaces after putting it in places where pests are likely to be, it's probably very effective at helping to discourage nesting, but it's also likely to be hazardous to your own health..

Lastly - In using "kill traps" and poison, one must understand that there are very good reasons for eliminating "pests." Animals that are classed as pests are classed that way for good reasons. Rats and squirrels can carry diseases that are dangerous for humans. Their droppings can be health hazards and the parasites that infest these mammals would just as happily infest humans. If you have a pest problem with these animals, you are increasing the chances your family will have possibly dangerous health problems if these pests are not eliminated.

On "human killing" - One has to judge whether or not one's own needs are sufficient enough to override one's own concern about "causing death." If that need isn't great enough, in one's own opinion, then one may be better served by becoming a Vegan. In any event, I think that most people would agree that limiting the suffering of any animal, especially food animals, is desirable and regarded as "a morally and ethically good thing to do." Hunters, who may be more practically minded, will also point out that it preserves the taste of the meat.

General advice - Place food and feeders in such a way as that food for the birds you find desirable is not easily available to pest species. There are plenty of feeders out there that have mechanisms to prevent access by rodents. Placing them in areas where only birds are likely to find them accessible is a good idea too. That means placing them out in the open, where pests won't have cover from predators, is a good idea. Place them in clearings, away from trees and shrubs and tall grass. But, some might consider a tall pole with a bird-feeder on it in the middle of a nice yard isn't "desirable." So, they hang the bird feeder from a tree, easily accessible by squirrels, or they put it near their house or window, so they can see it, which just attracts rodents to the house...

[burger1]

Just an fyi putting up bird feeders may also increase the number of predator birds in your area. I have birds killed and eaten at my feeders often enough. Falcons, hawks, owls, shrikes, magpies and a crazy/murderous Northern Flicker have all killed stuff. This might help decrease the number of squirrels/rats?

[Morkonan]

Just an fyi putting up bird feeders may also increase the number of predator birds in your area. I have birds killed and eaten at my feeders often enough. Falcons, hawks, owls, shrikes, magpies and a crazy/murderous Northern Flicker have all killed stuff. This might help decrease the number of squirrels/rats?

True, so long as the rats don't have much cover near areas where they might like to go and there aren't any good nesting trees/attics for squirrels. A few extra cats in the area might help, too...

But, the sorts of predators likely for rats and squirrels are likely to be opportunists and wouldn't mind eating a bird or three, either. If one attracts prey animals, one attracts the predators, too.

Predators that are fairly exclusive to birds might be a problem, but birds are pretty common prey items, so unless it was an unusual concentration of birds, I wouldn't worry too much about trying to discourage their predators. (It's almost impossible, anyway, to discourage these animals without also discouraging the desired ones - Birds.)

[red assassin]

I know for a fact that the grey squirrel is very destructive and harmful to the flora and fauna of the UK, so am baffled as to why the damn things have not been culled already

In an all out humans vs grey squirrels war, my money's on the squirrels. Crafty little buggers.

[Chips]

Yes it seems I will just have to " man up " and get things done. Or so I was told today in the real world, not a problem actually. Just I am still confused by the wording of the law and do not understand the governments logic behind it. ( Yet I guess I do, I just think it is pointless. ) I know for a fact that the grey squirrel is very destructive and harmful to the flora and fauna of the UK, so am baffled as to why the damn things have not been culled already, especially considering the culling of Badgers, that the powers that be, deem necessary.

Badger culls are not country wide and very targeted to areas - in the attempt to protect livestock from TB (allegedly). Fairly sure you need a license.

Youtube has ways to do "humane" traps and then killing. My Uncle swears by the Shovel for rats (as in wallop them with the flat side, kills them) and must admit we've always shot squirrels rather than trap them. However, if using air rifle, shoot rats/squirrels in head only. They're very tough ... it won't be a clean kill otherwise and that's where I'd say "humane" means I'd find an alternative method.

[Morkonan]

Side-note: Boric acid, sometimes known in the US as "Roach Pruf" works on more than just insects. It's a good irritant for small mammals, too. The advantage is that it can be tactically placed and doesn't have the odor that some other chemicals can have. It does have to be reapplied, though, from time to time, especially if it's an area that is subject to climate conditions, I would think. (Attics and basements and the like. In interior spaces, it lasts a long time.) It is also non-lethal for small rodents, so rats and squirrels won't be dying in one's crawlspaces. (A very common thing if one uses poison and something to be avoided at all costs, since decaying bodies are very unhealthy...)

[Masterbagger]

In an all out humans vs grey squirrels war, my money's on the squirrels. Crafty little buggers.

This man does not have dachshunds.

[Hank001]

Now hold on here. You all are missing something, especially you in the UK. That's one point about the grey squirrel that has me wondering "What's the problem?" So I'll let you in on what everybody out in the sticks knows: They are Mighty Tasty! Roast em up!

One bite after a good cooking? They'd be in demand and soon, no more grey squirrel problem. If that sounds awful, try it and find out.

[Morkonan]

Squirrel in a stew = OK.

Squirrel by itself = A bit greasy and gamey, methinks. But, IIRC, very lean, almost too lean?

There's also the parasite problem... It'd have to be very "well done."

Tree-rats are a scourge, no doubt about it. They will literally destroy a house and cause a tremendous amount of damage and safety issues.

My house one came under attack by the little @$@$^'ers... I developed a product that would, given some testing and tweaks, practically make it "incredibly unlikely" a squirrel, and many other similar pests, would ever try to infest a house armed with it. But, I left the business world to take care of an ill relative and never finished it. (I needed some lab-controlled testing and some studies done in order to get certain coverages on it before I dared started trying to get it to market.)

IOW - I developed a secret weapons program in order to fight... squirrels. I don't mind watching them from a window, but the pitter-patter of their little clawed paws in my attic made me reach for shotgun more than once. I was literally once involved in personal combat with the little @$%@$%@'s in the deep of the night, when I had "had enough"...

[Hank001]

Good point about parasites, forgot about those. They didn't used be a problem. They are now, so sorry. You're right about attics, wall spaces, etc. But here the racoons tend to keep them out of their territory.

[greypanther]

We have no problem with them in the house, luckily enough, I do not envy you Mork, having met someone who had similar problems with Dormice, again an introduced species. ( Edible too! ) The UK native one is unlikely to be a problem.

I too was told that Grey squirrels were nice eating, but no parasites were mentioned, so perhaps that is mostly a US problem. Certainly the person who told me about their edibility had eaten thousands over the years, without any ill effect. Having said that, I have also been told that Rats are perfectly edible too!

You do need a licence to cull Badgers, indeed I think the people doing it are paid by the government. One dairy farmer I spoke to ages ago though said it was ineffective and a vaccination scheme would probably be better and more efficient. He had cases of TB after a culling. Air guns are all to easy to obtain in the UK, even by children. Problem is they are no where near powerful enough for hunting, unless you are literally on top of your victim. They should be banned from sale, not least because they are mostly pointless.

I disagree Red, no matter how crafty they are, ( which they are, ) They would loose. There are already areas where a cull has been successful, in a local area, to protect the native Red Squirrel. ( Though it did take 18 years! ) I also agree with Masterbagger, though not about Daschunds, I have no knowledge of them, but the best vermin control I have witnessed, is by a gang of Jack Russell Terriers! The local clan of cats are a push over and are often cowed by the bullying Magpies!

As for predators in our area, well we do get Buzzards and Pergrine Falcons, neither of which are interested in Squirrels. I have seen Magpies take down a Wood Pigeon, but they leave the squirrels alone. We also get Tawny owls, but they would struggle as Squirrels are not nocturnal as far as I know, except for attics maybe!

squirrel vs rattle snake ( Though I think it would have no chance against a Jack Russell! )
Squirrel Vs Snake, the Rematch and the loser get's EATEN!

[Hank001]

Badgers! Another critter that showed up in our woods! Together with every kind of Stote and Ferrit sold in pet stores until the stopped it.
Crocidiles and Alligators found trapsing around farm ponds, parana pulled out the Mississippi and Ohio Rivers. Introduced species. And now Southern Illiniois has some nasty bugs too. Like scorpions and tarantulas that just 30 years ago were 1000 miles from here.

And I know people in Florida who just Love all the exotic reptiles that suddely showed up, like every constrictor in the books and a few nastier coustomers like cobras and such.

Must make life lots more interesting...