Planetary Protection

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Observe
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Planetary Protection

Post by Observe » Sat, 28. Apr 18, 19:57

If we land humans on Mars, how much risk do we have of contaminating the Martian environment and the search for life there? Likewise, what are the possibilities of contaminating Earth with Martian life-forms (if they exist) when astronauts (or soil samples) return to Earth?

NASA and others are spending big money on plans for Mars, yet at the same time we are funding a Planetary Protection Agency whose purpose is to prevent such a mission from happening.

There is something called the United Nations Outer Space Treaty, which has been ratified by 104 nations. Article IX of this treaty states:
Outer Space Treaty Article IX wrote:States Parties to the Treaty shall pursue studies of outer space, including the Moon and other celestial bodies, and conduct exploration of them so as to avoid their harmful contamination and also adverse changes in the environment of the Earth resulting from the introduction of extraterrestrial matter and, where necessary, shall adopt appropriate measures for this purpose
Should certain planets such as Europa, be permanently off-limits so that it remains a pristine environment? It's one thing to sterilize robotic probes as we have done, but it's not possible to sterilize humans in the same way (without killing them).

How do we respond if some 'rogue' nation or private company decides to send humans somewhere in a way that violates planetary protection? Would military action to stop them be appropriate?

Thoughts?

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Post by mrbadger » Sat, 28. Apr 18, 20:49

It's already too late I should think. Not too late to stop making things worse, but there are almost certainly earth born microbes on Mars now due to former missions.

Almost certainly there will be a few tardigrades on Mars already, don't know what they'd eat, what do they eat?

But according to Panspermia such transfer of life from planet to planet is natural. We'd just be accelerating it.

there is a possibility that life came to Earth from Mars, though there's no proof that stands up to close inspection yet. Not that it matters where life started, it could have started in several places in the same way.
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Post by pjknibbs » Sat, 28. Apr 18, 23:07

Yeah, there are already a number of probes on the Martian surface that were sent long before anyone cared to ensure they were scrubbed of Earth life, so the planet's already soiled goods. In the case of Europa, I think it's pretty certain that any life that might exist there will be in the deep ocean, not on the frozen surface, so landing probes there shouldn't be an issue.

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Post by euclid » Sat, 28. Apr 18, 23:54

My first thought is:

Can any micro organism attached to a probe survive a trip in space exposed to low (or no) pressure, extreme temperatures and radiation? I strongly doubt that.

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Post by Observe » Sun, 29. Apr 18, 00:40

euclid wrote:Can any micro organism attached to a probe survive a trip in space exposed to low (or no) pressure, extreme temperatures and radiation? I strongly doubt that.
Supposedly the 'gold standard' is 'dry heat sterilization'. That's what they did with the Mars Viking lander back in the late '80's. Here they subject the spacecraft to 125deg C for 30 hours.

Image

Trouble is, most modern spacecraft can't handle that kind of temperature. And then what to do about the millions of micro-organism accompanying every human being?

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Post by red assassin » Sun, 29. Apr 18, 01:15

euclid wrote:My first thought is:

Can any micro organism attached to a probe survive a trip in space exposed to low (or no) pressure, extreme temperatures and radiation? I strongly doubt that.

Cheers Euclid
Yup. The general term for species that fall into the "there's no way they can survive that... oh" bracket is extremophiles, and for pretty much any value of "that" there's something out there that can survive it in one form or another, interplanetary travel and even standard methods for sterilising spacecraft included.
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Re: Planetary Protection

Post by Chips » Sun, 29. Apr 18, 01:26

Observe wrote:How do we respond if some 'rogue' nation or private company decides to send humans somewhere in a way that violates planetary protection? Would military action to stop them be appropriate?

Thoughts?
Military action? What on earth...?

You could, you know, impose fines, or even take control of the company into the public domain if necessary, or put sanctions if a nation etc.

And what'd be the point in making a location off limits to preserve a pristine environment if there's no life there. I'm all for not intentionally degrading it, but we are talking about barren lumps of rock without atmosphere - it's not quite the same as the Great Barrier Reef in terms of biodiversity.

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Re: Planetary Protection

Post by pjknibbs » Sun, 29. Apr 18, 08:06

Chips wrote: And what'd be the point in making a location off limits to preserve a pristine environment if there's no life there. I'm all for not intentionally degrading it, but we are talking about barren lumps of rock without atmosphere - it's not quite the same as the Great Barrier Reef in terms of biodiversity.
In the case of somewhere like Mars, it's not so much that there might be life there *now* which will get contaminated, but that there might be traces of life that once existed there which would be incredibly nice for scientists to find. If we were to find traces of such micro-organisms and we hadn't made sure everything going there was clean, we wouldn't be able to distinguish genuine traces of extra-Earth life from the stuff we took there ourselves.

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Post by UniTrader » Sun, 29. Apr 18, 08:44

euclid wrote:My first thought is:

Can any micro organism attached to a probe survive a trip in space exposed to low (or no) pressure, extreme temperatures and radiation? I strongly doubt that.

Cheers Euclid
just some examples how resilent life can be:
=> There are Fungi in Chernobyl which use the local Radiation for as substitute "Photosynthesis" - so basically they "eat" Radiation. And there are also Species which can survive 15.000 Gray (yes, fiften thousand) - for comparision 5 Gray is lethal for Humans.
=> There were some Experiments of putting Bacteria into a Centrifuge ans see how extreme Gravity would affect them. In the weeks under 400.000 G (yeah, four hundred thousand times Earths Gravity) and they Thrived. and these were just common Soil Bacteria.
I know, this is not equal to Vacuum or 0G, but still surprisingly extreme. and it surely also goes in the other Direction.
=> Also there are many Bacteria which easily survive the standard cleaning Procedures for Interplanetary Spacecraft and the Trip through Space Afterwards. see https://motherboard.vice.com/en_us/arti ... -kill-them
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Re: Planetary Protection

Post by Morkonan » Sun, 29. Apr 18, 09:30

Observe wrote:If we land humans on Mars, how much risk do we have of contaminating the Martian environment and the search for life there?
Right now? Not much risk. Later, when we begin to exploit it? A greater risk.
Likewise, what are the possibilities of contaminating Earth with Martian life-forms (if they exist) when astronauts (or soil samples) return to Earth?
Given the procedures planned, little. And, even if there was life somehow transported, that doesn't mean it would survive on Earth. There's also a chance Earth has already gotten dosed with Martian microbes, especially in the distant past. (Trump's hair has always looked suspicious, right?
NASA and others are spending big money on plans for Mars, yet at the same time we are funding a Planetary Protection Agency whose purpose is to prevent such a mission from happening.
What do you mean its purpose is to prevent such missions?

https://planetaryprotection.nasa.gov/about

There is something called the United Nations Outer Space Treaty, which has been ratified by 104 nations. Article IX of this treaty states:
..Should certain planets such as Europa, be permanently off-limits so that it remains a pristine environment? It's one thing to sterilize robotic probes as we have done, but it's not possible to sterilize humans in the same way (without killing them).
IIRC, that's one of the plans for Europa inasmuch as any research there must take the highest precautions.
...Thoughts?
We are going to exploit space and other planets. We have to. Yes, we should do that responsibly and should try our best to avoid damaging living alien ecosystems.

But, we're going to go there and we're going to exploit what we find.

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Re: Planetary Protection

Post by Chips » Sun, 29. Apr 18, 13:11

pjknibbs wrote: In the case of somewhere like Mars, it's not so much that there might be life there *now* which will get contaminated, but that there might be traces of life that once existed there which would be incredibly nice for scientists to find.
We're still finding undiscovered life/organisms and more on Earth at present, so I doubt there'd be much concern about the entire planetary mass of Mars being compromised in short time frames.

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Post by felter » Sun, 29. Apr 18, 16:41

I got to say this.

What is the point of discussing something that concerns a treaty with an American, when America has shown in the past year and a bit that when it comes to treaties America will not and does not honour such things, especially when the treaty is against their betterment over any and everyone else on the planet.
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Re: Planetary Protection

Post by Skism » Sun, 29. Apr 18, 17:28

Chips wrote:
Observe wrote:How do we respond if some 'rogue' nation or private company decides to send humans somewhere in a way that violates planetary protection? Would military action to stop them be appropriate?

Thoughts?
Military action? What on earth...?

You could, you know, impose fines, or even take control of the company into the public domain if necessary, or put sanctions if a nation etc.

And what'd be the point in making a location off limits to preserve a pristine environment if there's no life there. I'm all for not intentionally degrading it, but we are talking about barren lumps of rock without atmosphere - it's not quite the same as the Great Barrier Reef in terms of biodiversity.
Interplanetary War and the plot of the Expanse in 3..2..1 ;)

And yes we are not talking barrier reef here.

It is imperative we expand to other planets ASAP Mars most likely in particular. ‘Planetary Protection’ is a secondary concern
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Post by Morkonan » Tue, 1. May 18, 13:36

felter wrote:I got to say this.

What is the point of discussing something that concerns a treaty with an American, when America has shown in the past year and a bit that when it comes to treaties America will not and does not honour such things, especially when the treaty is against their betterment over any and everyone else on the planet.
I'm curious as to exactly what motivates your statement. So, in brief, since it may be off-topic, what exactly prompts your opinion here?

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Post by felter » Tue, 1. May 18, 17:30

Morkonan wrote:
felter wrote:I got to say this.

What is the point of discussing something that concerns a treaty with an American, when America has shown in the past year and a bit that when it comes to treaties America will not and does not honour such things, especially when the treaty is against their betterment over any and everyone else on the planet.
I'm curious as to exactly what motivates your statement. So, in brief, since it may be off-topic, what exactly prompts your opinion here?
Honestly you want to got there, okay I'll be brief and use one word there are others but one is enough.

PARIS
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Post by Morkonan » Tue, 1. May 18, 18:14

felter wrote:...Honestly you want to got there, okay I'll be brief and use one word there are others but one is enough.

PARIS
I agree it was stupid and irresponsible of Trump... But, it is not a "treaty." It's an "Accord." (Called the "Paris Agreement" because it is reaching an accord, or an "agreement", on certain obligations, obligations which are not enforceable. These things used to be called "Accords" but I guess they thought that sounded too much like some kinda "treaty" that would alarm people or something, so they called it what it is - An "Agreement.")

According to the "Agreement" the US will be be able to "withdraw", formally, in 2020. But, because the accord was, IMO, less than what most would have hoped, specifically as it was first proposed, there is really no inducement for anyone to actually comply with it. Thus, Trump can just say "Me want sausages" to it and not attempt to influence industry or put "carbon taxes" and/or "carbon credit" rewards in place or attempt to incorporate those ideas.

In short - It's not a treaty, has no enforcement measures, was only a shadow of what it was originally intended to be in the first place, and does't require anything more than a promise and a report. It looks good to the press, sometimes, and makes for a nice group photo...

HOWEVER...

Your protestation does raise an issue - The Outer Space Treaty is exactly that, a "Treaty." But, the ramifications of violating that are a bit unclear. Likely, it would give other countries an easy excuse for sanctions or even more... vigorous action in response to a violation.

But, it's a "feel good" treaty with practical benefits that more level-headed people, like those intimately involved in space programs, have enforced on their own. They have a tendency to do stuff like that, especially since cooperation with one's peers in a very tiny industry, even competing ones, is often necessary. For example, even when Russia and the US were arguing pretty heatedly, the joint ventures in their space programs were not greatly effected by that. The interdependence there, right now and for the foreseeable future, requires cooperation, even if under-the-radar.

What is the most important aspect of a treaty?

It's not absolute compliance.

It is the "good faith" effort that is important. Yes, a treaty has, hopefully, specific terms. But, what if some of those terms, due to limited foresight, are not achievable? That's a frequent occurrence. So, what then? There are always extension options added, ways to escape penalty for incidental non-compliance in voluntary treaties, etc, else nobody in their right mind would ever sign one! So, at the end of the day, while everyone wants the treaty to be successful and for everyone to be fully compliant, what matters in the practical sense is that signatories strive to maintain the spirit of the treaty, to try in "good faith" to achieve compliance. THAT is measured more-often-than not.

You can't have a perfect treaty, a perfect accord, that stands the test of time stretching across all circumstances. And, knowing this, any such instrument must be maleable to the point where signatories can still demonstrate positive "good faith" efforts for compliance in the face of new circumstances.

If, for instance, we land something on Mars that gives the whole darn planet "the flu" is that justification for war if there is a treaty we signed that specifically states we must not do that? What if it can be shown that every effort to comply with that treaty was done "in good faith?"

We are going to Mars. We will exploit it. We must make "good faith" efforts to not contaminate it with the flu... But, we're going and it is hoped we will eventually have some form of settlement on it, even if it's only scientific or industrial. And then... it will be contaminated, no matter our "good faith" efforts.

The whole point of all of the above is this - Is it a "good faith" effort if we send out probes and vehicles and missions to other planets if our formal obligations and observances would prevent us from "contaminating" them?

NO.

The truth is that those are largely feel-good aspects of such agreements. We are contaminates to these systems. We will bring our own little buddies with us to contaminate them, as well, no matter what efforts we make.

But, it is part of our "good faith" effort that we will do all we can in practical terms to comply with such ideals, spending a lot of money and manpower and forcing exploration limits upon ourselves to do so.

The only way we can do all we can to ensure that no ecosystem, if one exists, is contaminated by Earth life-forms is to never go there and to never send any physical object there... ever. And that ain't gonna happen if our own solar-system is any proof of that.

In the end, all such notions, while laudable, fall flat when faced with the ominous eventuality of "if we want to do something, we will find a way to do it."

Fifteen-minutes after the establishment of a real-and-for-true "Starfleet Prime Directive" some crew somewhere will justify breaking it. Guaranteed. :)

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Post by Bishop149 » Tue, 1. May 18, 18:41

red assassin wrote: Yup. The general term for species that fall into the "there's no way they can survive that... oh" bracket is extremophiles, and for pretty much any value of "that" there's something out there that can survive it in one form or another, interplanetary travel and even standard methods for sterilising spacecraft included.
Yeah pretty much one of the lessons learned in this process is that something will almost always manage to survive conditions that a scientist at one point decided would "absolutely and utterly kill any bloody thing!".

The current gold standard to sterilise things is to use a LOT of radiation (more than you would typically find in space) but I wouldn't be surprised if some hardy little bugger managed to live through it.

Its interesting you bring up the Outer Space Treaty.
This is something that until recently wasn't really worth the effort to violate, so was pretty easy to maintain. Now, however, with serious talk afoot about landing people on Mars and the cost effective exploitation of asteroid resources I feel its going to get an actual test or two. I suspect it will just be torn up and replaced with something more permissive, probably after someone just ignores it and does something it prohibits anyway.
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Post by Morkonan » Tue, 1. May 18, 19:05

Bishop149 wrote:...This is something that until recently wasn't really worth the effort to violate, so was pretty easy to maintain. ..
I have to disagree. The "ease" with enforcement is that there were only two nations that really had the capability to violate it. And, neither wanted to because the results are too terrible to contemplate.

A satellite armed with nuclear warheads would almost certainly spell "instant first-strike-doom" against any nation it was targeted against. Ludicrously short travel time, very little warning, no chance to really do anything except to bend over and kiss everything goodbye... The "reward" there is undeniable, but only for the country that did it first and, before anyone could protest or launch one of their own, used it first.

Terrorizing in the extreme. Valuable in terms of its finality, in the extreme. But, an "escalation option" to be avoided at all costs. Even the threat of such launching such a thing is enough to start a nuclear war. Instead of a rifle casually aimed in your direction, like a nuclear silo or submarine, it's pistol planted right against your head...

A nuclear-capable satellite would be the most valuable, most destructive, practical weapon in existence. For this reason, if for none other, a treaty banning such a monstrosity was absolutely necessary to ensure our continued survival on this darn rock even with all the other "niceties" included in the treaty. (IMO)

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Post by Hank001 » Wed, 2. May 18, 15:31

felter it's not as linear as all that. Any agreements like the Paris Accords were the pendulum swinging left. Beaking the Accords, trashing the Enviromental Protection Agency and denying Global Warming is that pendulum swinging right. Hard science is now seen as a left swing, gearing up to go to Mars is swinging right since to floods money into the contractors and gives a good sound bite. "Sure let's get to Mars first so we can claim the mineral rights, start subdivisions and build some factories...." :roll:
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Post by Bishop149 » Wed, 2. May 18, 15:50

Morkonan wrote:A satellite armed with nuclear warheads would almost certainly spell "instant first-strike-doom" against any nation it was targeted against. Ludicrously short travel time, very little warning, no chance to really do anything except to bend over and kiss everything goodbye... The "reward" there is undeniable, but only for the country that did it first and, before anyone could protest or launch one of their own, used it first.
I don't see how it would be especially more effective than an MIRV, shorter warning sure, but what realistically can you do in that 20 odd minutes anyway (a lot less if launched from a sub sitting off your coast). A counter attack can be initiated within minutes and extensive measures are in place to ensure THAT ability can't be removed by a first strike, even if the warning was zero. All such a weapon would a achieve is a reduction in the already tiny number of people that might be able to get to safety in time.

Also satellites are incredibly predictable, being largely stuck on rails of gravity. You can bet that if such a weapon existed sufficient effort would be expended to ensure it was found and it's orbital path known at all times. Any change to said path would essentially give you one massive warning anyway, you'd even know precisely what the likely target was. It would also be realatively easy to shoot down . . . . a lot easier to eliminate than a silo anyway.
The reason such a weapon doesn't exist isn't the Outer Space Treaty, its a cost benefit ratio calculation, it just wouldn't be worth the effort.

Now if you want a REAL space weapon to be scared of, how about the ability to redirect a large asteroid to hit the Earth. Granted it would be total insanity, take a while and M.A.D. for everyone on the planet, but boy that's a BIG stick.

Edit: Hmmmm thinking about it the best way to place such a weapon would probably be in geosync. orbit in the optimal position to hit the target. It would be beyond the reach of all but the most determined efforts to shoot it down and you wouldn't ever have to re-position it . . . . BUT the trajectory and flight time of the missiles become rather long and complicated again. Also I'd imagine putting such a thing in such a place would be an immediate act of war. Like Cuba 10-fold.
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