Not Trump, not guns, but... worth a look

[RegisterMe]

Not safe for work, and... (good, imho) challenging.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=43gm3CJePn0

[theeclownbroze]

This one is also deep

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hRVOOwFNp5U

[mrbadger]

Not safe for work, and... (good, imho) challenging.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=43gm3CJePn0

Nice, well, nice isn't the right word. Interesting.

[Skism]

This one is also deep

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hRVOOwFNp5U

My mind is still reeling from this and the OP!

[mrbadger]

This one is also deep

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hRVOOwFNp5U

My mind is still reeling from this and the OP!

That's poetry set to music, an entirely valid art form that isn't considered to be 'proper' poetry in the literary world because of who it's written and performed by.

Whereas so called 'real' literature and poetry is now sometimes so divorced from our current everyday world that it's nearly impossible to understand without it being explained in detail or spending a long time analysing it. Also, you're not really supposed to make much money from proper poetry, not if you're a real poet, not these days. I'm not sure how that works, but that's how it is.

In short it's mostly not fun without a lot of work. Not always, but far too often I find. And how dare these rappers make coin from poetry, it can't be real, how vulgar of them. I bet half of them haven't even read Keates

[Morkonan]

<-- Hates "rap."

It's pretentious... It doesn't know what it "is." The "Beatnick Generation" tried it an they were more hated than mimes for crying out loud!

I watched some of the first vid, out of courtesy for a fellow forumite, but I could only stand a little of it.

These people would be better served by actual, real, "poetry." Not this "I'M ANGRY" crap. "Controvery" is the rapper's bread-and-butter. But, most of it is all surface and no depth. I have heard some interesting bits and pieces, though. There is some artistic and expressive merit in some lyrics, no doubt about it.

But, whatever value it may hold is destroyed by the presentation, in my opinion.

So... my entire commentary is just focused on criticizing the medium, not the message. And, as far as the message goes, there's nothing new I could see. It's all the same juvenile "I'm angry and you don't know me" stuff.

They need Montaigne. Where have all the good essayists gone these days?

[mrbadger]

If they wrote 'real poetry' who would publish it?

[mrbadger]

'Real publishers'?

Even 'proper' poets struggle for ages to get anything published, and when they do, print runs are limited. It just isn't viable, not when they want to express their poetry via rap music, which thanks to Youtube has a potential audience of millions, if they have the talent.

It works, their peers relate to it, and ultimatelly the same rules apply, the awful stuff sinks, the good stuff sticks around.

The conventional world of poetry was created for a different time. It still has a place, it always will have, but one size does not fit all.

I very much doubt Maya Angelou, herself an unconventional poet, and the only one whose work I have a book of, would disaprove of rappers. That's not to say she'd have liked them all, but it does seem she was the inspiration for a lot of the good ones A Brief History of How Maya Angelou Influenced Hip Hop

[Morkonan]

If they wrote 'real poetry' who would publish it?

If it was good? Who wouldn't?

For performance art, I'd rather watch an impassioned oration than something that claims it's "music."

<--- Opinionated bartard.

But, at least there's no way I can have more than a few more decades left in life, surely no more than a handful, if that. So, culture will go on, it will grow, and there will be something in it that the older generation finds vulgar once I'm gone... That's guaranteed.

[theeclownbroze]

@Morkonan

Maybe this one would make you turn to the dark side?

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qggxTtnKTMo

[mrbadger]

If they wrote 'real poetry' who would publish it?

If it was good? Who wouldn't?

It's not that simple, go look how the poetry publishing world works.

I won't iterate it here, but it's a laborious process that reaches a limited audience untill you reach the top of the game.

Or you could set your poetry to music and put it on Youtube. There's already a type of singer that does that, rappers I think they're called.

Lots of singers are poets of course, you can't like them all.

[Morkonan]

@Morkonan

Maybe this one would make you turn to the dark side?

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qggxTtnKTMo

Nope. I would have rather heard what he had to say without the theft of the theme to "Love Story" playing in the background as part of some... dub/remix/whatever they'd want to call it. That's not his song. He didn't write it. Is he paying Francis Lai, Carl Sigman or Henry Mancini, the original composer, lyricist and performer of that music that was "sampled?" Probably not. Is that right? No. Are there any credits to these performers in what appears to be the "official video?" Not that I could see. That's "theft."

So, show me where they're paying royalties to the original artists for the music that they "sampled."

And, if they aren't? They're stealing...

And, you want me to approve of that?

Oh, golly, let's look: http://www.mtv.com/news/2118296/immorta ... -arrested/

So, he got upset when some vendors were selling t-shirts with his trademarked image/name on them because they weren't paying him any royalties to use those things. Gosh!

Yeah... no, I am not impressed. And, even if the label is paying royalties or even if the industry has managed to cobble together some legal wrangling that decriminalizes theft... it's still a bunch of crap. If he wants music to sell, he needs to either write it or get someone to write it for him. And, if he broadly samples something, he needs to pay someone for that. Or, he needs to prepare for all the artists he's ripping off to "assault and rob" him for not observing their rights. Fair's fair, right?

Yeah, "rap"... not a fan. The original stuff probably had decent roots and intentions, a sort of raw "spirit," but it's morphed into just a bunch of garbage with people trying to promote a rebellious, often criminal and controversial, image in order to make some quick money.

[theeclownbroze]

"Rappers who rap about rape, drugs, crime and
Violence are not good examples of good human beings"

Colour me surprised there morkonan

I had no intention of seriously convincing you to like it in anyway I just wanted to play around with how brutal some of these lyrics are.

[Morkonan]

"Rappers who rap about rape, drugs, crime and
Violence are not good examples of good human beings"

Colour me surprised there morkonan

I had no intention of seriously convincing you to like it in anyway I just wanted to play around with how brutal some of these lyrics are.

Let us demonstrate how controversy and "shock" enter into "art" -

http://www.tate.org.uk/art/artworks/duc ... ain-t07573

"Fountain" by Marcel Duchamp

OK, I could have picked something a bit more shocking, a bit more controversial, a bit more... vulgar. But, I didn't want to get banned.

OK, is this "art?"

IMO, it is. But it moves from just being a urinal to "art" due to its title and, somewhat, due to the signature of an "artist." In other words, exactly speaking, it intentionally communicates something more than just the sum of its parts to an intended audience. It's making a "statement" of sorts.

Yet, he didn't make the urinal himself. And, it would seem there's no "craftsmanship" present here - He just turned it on its side and gave it a name. Clever? Yes, but only "clever" if one can see it in its entirety and comprehend it. Worth paying money for? Heck no! Maybe some collector would, but not me. It's enough to have seen and understood, as best as I can, the "intent."

So, "rap." Is "rap" just turning a urinal on its side? Some of it is, but there could still be "artistic intent" there. I can appreciate that if it's actually there.

But, then again, there's a great deal of non-artistic intent in rap. There's a large number of "artists" producing "rap art" that is nothing more than a urinal turned on its side with the title of "urinal" on it.

That's the key difference. Imagine the allegorical following examples:

1) A rap song that is a urinal turned on its side with the title of "urinal."

2) A rap song that is a urinal turned on its side with the title of "Fountain."

See the difference? See why one is "art" and the other is... a urinal?

To me, IMO, most rap is just a bunch of urinals turned on their side with no intent to communicate anything more than "urinal." It's my "opinion" only. I'm no music critic so maybe those guys have some insight that I don't. And, if they do... Well, good for them, but that doesn't mean I'm going to start listening to rap music.

[mrbadger]

So, show me where they're paying royalties to the original artists for the music that they "sampled."

And, if they aren't? They're stealing...

And, you want me to approve of that?

Oh, golly, let's look: http://www.mtv.com/news/2118296/immorta ... -arrested/

What about Terry Pratchetts Going Postal, which is a literal copying of Harry Harrisons Stainless Steel Rat, he mashed together several books and created Moist Von Lipvig.

A great read, but in no way original. Just a retelling of the same story, which was very much still in copyright.

No-one accused him of theft, because He was Sir Terry Pratchett.

And of course before the US went insane about patents and copyright, copying the work of others was the accepted way of doing things. Outright ripping someone off wasn't ok, but copying someone? Of course that was fine.

[Morkonan]

What about Terry Pratchetts Going Postal, which is a literal copying of Harry Harrisons Stainless Steel Rat, he mashed together several books and created Moist Von Lipvig....

You can not copyright an idea.

What is being done in rap with "sampling" is a direct copy of a performance being included in a song without, IMO, proper attribution or acknowledgement of the original creator.

In the song I was speaking to, it was a recording of Henry Mancini's performance that was sampled and put into a completely different song.

It wasn't someone doing a "cover" or "their own version" of a song. It was someone taking the performance of another artist, which that artist owns as "their very own special thing" and then using it for their own purposes, seeking to legitimize that use as some sort of "commentary" or for "artistic reasons."

That can be done with such things, but it can't be "sold" without recourse. I can take Mancini's performance and create an animation of Donald Duck borking a goat and then put it up on youtube and claim "artistic license." HOWEVER, I can not monetize that. I can not sell it. I can not exploit it for financial gain without violating copyright law and, honestly, without violating ethical or moral principles that I firmly believe in.

If you create something, no matter what ideas it borrows from, that creation is yours. As long as you're not simply copy-pasting something, but are honestly creating something "new" from it, that creation is yours. BUT, that does not entitle you to treat the creations of others that you have used in this "new thing" as being "yours." They're not. It's only the new work that is yours. And, if you seek to exploit this new work by monetizing it? You have to arrange that with the creators of the works that you have directly incorporated in your own, now monetized, work.

That's fair, right?

I can not sell an "Iron Man" action-figure that is a reproduction of the famous comic-book character without first negotiating the license to do so with Marvel. However, I can sell an action-figure called "Tin-Can Man" that is a completely new product with its own look, even if it "borrows" from the "idea of" the Marvel character, but does so in a humorous way.

Nobody owns an idea. But, the ideas and even artistic products of others can be used in some ways without infringing upon the rights of the original creators. Just as long as you're not trying to sell someone else's work... ie: Fair Use (A great vid on the subject - Fairy Use)

But, that's not my main gripe with "rap." Instead, it all boils down to the culture and social norms it normally projects.

I was young once. (It's true!) And, when I was young, just like most young people, I sought out groups and social definitions like all my contemporaries did.

Music "evokes." That's what it does. Like poetry, music isn't about telling a story, so-to-speak, even if it's a ballad. It "evokes" emotions, imagery, gives new context to mere "words." And, if its an instrumental, it's entirely about evoking an emotional response. Some would say there is a primitive, musical, part of our brains that is uniquely effected by music. If so, this is what it is trying to reach.

Predictably, young people are drawn to this emotional medium. They will often find that a particular musical taste ties them to a particular social group or, at least, one that they recognize as such. It's one of the few "things in common" a young person can have with their peers that is specific, distinct, meaningful. "Do you like the band X?" That's a much more significant question to answer than "What school do you go to."

IMO, there is no intrinsic thing in "music", despite the number of protestations I expect I'll get, that "tells" a person "you like this more than the other type of music." Instead, there's "something else" going on, here. There's something about the young person's individual experience, the newly discovered "culture" that they have found exists, the social environment and the audience the music is generally targeted to... IOW, when it comes down to a preference in music, or someone's "tastes," it's because of the variables they bring to the experience, not the music itself.

Music has a target audience. And, it has "cultural meaning." Commercial music strives to build upon these things. More importantly, to strengthen its audience and, in turn, to try to serve it better, it promotes certain things. It, in general, tends to have a "theme."

What is the theme of "Country Music?" "Heavy Metal?" "Blues?" "Reggae?" They all have distinctive themes that make them "unique." And, they generally style their musical composition to support these themes, even if there are no lyrics involved.

What is Rap's "theme?" What does it do to distinguish itself from other genres that is more than just a distinctive composition style? And, how does it maintain its audience, form it, promote itself within it?

Music is a powerful device. It is so strong, so emotionally involving, that tyrants and conservative movements, even religions, have BANNED some forms of it. Banned them... like books or political writings that could have social, cultural or political destructive potential. Why? Answering that question tells one how powerful music can be.

And, that ability to project or evoke is powerful, especially for young people. And, if the cultural or social values it seeks to align with in order to define and promote itself is destructive?

THAT is what I have a problem with.

Anyone attempting to defend the entirety of "rap" by armoring it in the protections we reserve for "artistic license" must first acknowledge the cultural values that most of it appears to promote. Is some rap deserving of such protections? Sure, just like all nudity is not "pornography." But, those worthy works of social commentary are not what the mainstream commercial rap focuses on exploiting and promoting.

But, I'm starting to become an old fart... So, my reaction is predictable, just as the older generation's reaction to every new medium, every new form of expression, that has been adopted almost exclusively by the younger generation. There isn't a period in written history where some old fart didn't complain, with different degrees of effect, about the tastes and possible socially destructive values being adopted by a contemporary younger generation in their choices of art and music.

I dislike Anime, too... I am a very dyed-in-the-wool "old fart." History and culture will pass me by without a blink.

[clakclak]

[...]What is the theme of "Country Music?" "Heavy Metal?" "Blues?" "Reggae?" They all have distinctive themes that make them "unique." And, they generally style their musical composition to support these themes, even if there are no lyrics involved.

What is Rap's "theme?" What does it do to distinguish itself from other genres that is more than just a distinctive composition style? And, how does it maintain its audience, form it, promote itself within it?[...]

Could you give an example for let's say the "theme" of Heavy Metal because I really don't understand what you mean.

[Morkonan]

..Could you give an example for let's say the "theme" of Heavy Metal because I really don't understand what you mean.

Hard emotions, branching out into different experiences, like "dread" or even "Evil" as well as all the "Good Things" you can sing about, but with a hard-hitting, very emotionally driven, bit of music. There's generally "conflict," too, and then some bands like to combine these things with "ballads," some going so far as "rock operas."

Heavy Metal is relatively young and certainly eclectic. As a result, it has been appropriated and changed pretty drastically. There's a huge number of very specific types/genres. Some border on the incomprehensible, something like Thrash-Metal-Punk... Energy, emotion, often overwhelming too. Some of the Scandinavian stuff isn't really possible for me to figure out. It's readily identifiable as some sort of "Heavy Metal" though.

Rap is sort of like Punk's really creepy younger brother who just doesn't give a crap, anymore. Punk violates conventions, declares anarchy, points the finger at the establishment, embodies and embraces the whole "teen angst" thing to the upmost. And, of course, pushes it with a lot of energy. But, I think it is/was more about young people being fed lies by the older generation and suddenly finding out that the dreams they were handed were just that - dreams. It was pretty angry about that.

Rap, though? What does it talk about? What does it "say" and what does it appear to value?

David Bowie gets caught doing drugs. "You shouldn't be doing that, Dave. but, OK, we know how it is, we guess."

Keith Richards is permanently preserved thanks to intravenous injections of unknown substances, helps destroy a few hotel rooms - "Dang, Keith! OK, look, try to get clean, man. And, stop friggin' wasting hotel rooms! Woohoo, Keith got clean, way to go Keith! Well, except for a little pot.."

Ozzy bites head off a bat - "Holy crap! A bat? WHY? Oh, wait, he didn't know it was real? HE KNEW IT WAS REAL? Wut... That's friggin' gross. "Metal" but gross, man. Glad you're not doing hard drugs anymore... probably."

Rapper gets shot while participating in drive-by-shooting-drug-deal-gone-bad - "Oh, yeah, gotta stay in the scene my____, 'cause the fans need to know u legit, feel me?"

...

[clakclak]

[...]

Rapper gets shot while participating in drive-by-shooting-drug-deal-gone-bad - "Oh, yeah, gotta stay in the scene my____, 'cause the fans need to know u legit, feel me?"

...

You see there is the problem. You assume that everone in the metal scene is all for metal bands getting clean and you assume that everyone in the hip hop scene thinks shootings are cool. Both of those are simply wrong. I would simply like to quote an Eminem on this topic.

[...]
Entertainment is changin', interwinin' with gangsta's
In the land of the killers, a sinner's mind is a sanctum
Holy or unholy, only have one homie
Only this gun, lonely cause don't anyone know me


[...]

They say music can alter moods and talk to you
Well can it load a gun up for you , and c*** it too
Well if it can, then the next time you assault a dude
Just tell the judge it was my fault and I'll get sued

See what these kids do is hear about us totin' pistols
And they want to get one 'cause they think the s***'s cool
Not knowin' we really just protectin' ourselves, we entertainers
Of course the s***'s affectin' our sales, you ignoramus

But music is reflection of self, we just explain it, and then we get our
Checks in the mail
It's f***ed up ain't it
How we can come from practically nothing to being able to have any f***in'

Thing that we wanted
That's why we sing for these kids, who don't have a thing
Except for a dream, and a f***in' rap magazine
Who post pin-up pictures on their walls all day long

Idolize they favorite rappers and know all they songs
Or for anyone who's ever been through s*** in their lives
'Til they sit and they cry at night wishin' they'd die
'Til they throw on a rap record and they sit, and they vibe

We're nothin' to you but we're the f***in' s*** in they eyes
That's why we seize the moment try to freeze it and own it, squeeze it and hold it
'Cause we consider these minutes golden
And maybe they'll admit it when we're gone

Just let our spirits live on, through our lyrics that you hear in our
Songs and we can
[...]

Edit: Also a bit strange to see that they censored the words pistol and gun in the radio version I linked above.

[mrbadger]

The nature of poetry is changing. Just like the nature of literature has changed.

It use to be, at its core, all about writing an an awesome relevent story.

Now it's like a pedigree dog breed, you have to get everything right, match all the 'rules'.

Even Pratchet suffered from this. People who considered themselves to belong to the world of real literature still spoke of him as being 'reasonable for a person who wrote fantasy'.

Douglas Adams was, and largely still is, disregarded in the literary world as a satirist.

The rules have changed. Obviously if you want to write something to appeal to a certain audience you must write for that audience. I couldn't write rap either. Nor can my son, thankfully he realised this and stopped. Well off happy white boys can't write good rap songs, it's not a thing, he'd be mocked, and he'd have deserved it.

I couldn't submit something with awful grammer and poor structure to an agent and not expect them to delete it. But I don't have to follow all the rules, because rules change.

What doesn't change is, does what you have to say mean something, and can you say it well.