what type of system will i need to run X4?

[pjknibbs]

Most enthusiasts get their stuff online, these days, AFAIK.

I've been buying my computer gear online for pretty much as long as I've *been* online--so, since 1996 or so?

[Morkonan]

Most enthusiasts get their stuff online, these days, AFAIK.

I've been buying my computer gear online for pretty much as long as I've *been* online--so, since 1996 or so?

I used to try to always buy local, just to support the mom&pops. (Small businesses.)

Back in the heady days of dialup and bbs's, I used to hang out in the backroom of a local computer shop with all the nerds and geeks. (A local bbs was run out of the shop.) Big plywood tables with servers on them, Gandalf modems screaming, beer being liberally poured, some guy using a crashed-together HAM radio setup to print out, actually "print out" ASCII pr0n... Yes, bo0bs can be transmitted over radio waves! Who'da thunk it? o.0

Anyway, those memories are why I always used to support local shops, even going so far as having them custom order parts and paying a little extra for them. But, they're a dying breed. The one I used to go to closed down recently. They had whole walls full of stuff you couldn't find anywhere else except online. (Cables, weird connectors, stuff they don't make anymore, etc.)

Progress is great, but there's a lack of humanity in it.

[jlehtone]

There is certainly a special feeling in local stores.

'90s had many small physical stores. Most vanished after a while, usually soon after I had bought something. (There was also a national bank that went under right after I closed my account there ...)

Some have survived, mainly by creating strong online presence.
Even on the online side there have been mergers, bigger ones buying competition/specialty out.

I almost always order online, but prefer to pick up from local outlet, if the store has one.


The main point was:
Yes, there are/were stores that sell components.
Yes, there definitely are online stores that sell components.
Some components can be found only from the online stores.

[Tamina]

Are there any cheap, elegant pc cases?
Still searching. 'Cheap' aparently often means bad processing with a window and RGB illumination.
I would like to have it the other way around, especially because I am planning to look 99% of the time on my screen and not somewhere else while it is turned on.

What I found so far is the BitFenix Shinobi, Sharkoon TG5 (non-bling version) and Cooltek TG-01. All three are currently available for 50£/55€ but the Shinobi only comes with one case-fan, while the TG5 comes with 4

[Yaunm]

There are two types of cases. 50E cheap black rectangles and 200E elegant cases. The problem with the latter is that is 150E that could be invested in better hardware. This is a fight i could never win and thus all my cases are black rectangles lol. And i would def not get the 4 fans one. 4 fans make 4 times as much noise as 1. And the non OCed systems needs 0.


I also buy small components in a local store if available. ( like kmcomputer ) The price is only about 2E more, meh. But they( local stores in general) often have local flash sales and some useful junk. And the sellers usually have some useful hints on compatibility and i can ask them some really dumb questions and still get an answer lol.

Problem with local sellers is that online sale is 2 weeks return no questions asked and local sale is technically final. ( It's crazy if you think about it).

[Hector0x]

4 fans make 4 times as much noise as 1. And the non OCed systems needs 0.

This is an interesting belief. If you simply multiply the decibel by four you roughly end up at the sound level of a pneumatic hammer

Each additional fan will increase the noise level by approximately 10%.
Without case fans the heat will build up greatly and your graphics card is going to be way louder than those outer fans. If you configure your onboard fan control settings they will never be louder than the rest of your components.

[Morkonan]

Just curious, by why are do so many hobbyists seem to be so very concerned with fan noise? I've never had a system where the noise from the fans was overbearing and I've had some pretty big cases with bunches of fans.

I do understand an afficianado's desire to min/max their perfect setup, but there comes a point where reality has to be accepted. "Moving air" is basically a loose definition of "noise" to begin with...

[Yaunm]

This is an interesting belief. If you simply multiply the decibel by four you roughly end up at the sound level of a pneumatic hammer

Decibel is a logarithmic unit and can't be multiplied like that. The fans generate sound pressure and it is measured in Pascal ( force/area), 4 times of that equals 6dB, not x4

But for the human there are really only two cases. Below room noise level. And above. Therefore any noise source is a problem, because a room is not a loud place.

Without case fans the heat will build up greatly and your graphics card is going to be way louder than those outer fans. If you configure your onboard fan control settings they will never be louder than the rest of your components.

No, computer cases are designed for air flow by default. If you take a look at the front panel it has small holes in it to allow air intake. The CPU/PSU fans will suck the air from the front and push the air outwards to the rear. That's how it works.

You can't suck in more air than it is pushed out though, so installing 100 fans will simply cause tons of stale hot air inside unable to escape. Resulting not only in an increase in temperature, but also in tons of noise due to all these fans with all their might trying to compress the air inside.


The multi fans cases have a simple purpose. Water cooling. Where the CPU fan is resettled to the front panel. Using them for anything else will worsen whatever you are trying to do.

[Tamina]

More fans can spin at a lower frequency in order to maintain a similar airflow, can't they? That means less noise, doesn't it?

Just an educated guess here:
m' = A * v * p
The higher Area (x*A) allows them to move air slower (v/x) in order to create the same air mass flow (m') and therefore further decrease their speed and noise level respectively.
p is density and v = f(frequency).

I've never had a system where the noise from the fans was overbearing and I've had some pretty big cases with bunches of fans.

So lots of fans =/= unbearable noise?
Next to airflow, look&bling, cable management and processing quality, the most commented category is indeed noise. It is always hard to tell how subjective this is from the comments but comments in all categories often sound like "unbearable" factors.

There are two types of cases. 50E cheap black rectangles and 200E elegant cases.

My impressions so far. I don't see why elegance is a cost factor and cheap variants either have to look dull or like China crap with RGB bling but this is highly subjective.

I got a nice small list of cases together now with apparently good quality, airflow and decent look according to customer reviews.

And the non OCed systems needs 0.

0 you say? Now that you say it, I think my current PC has 0, besides the PSU. All new cases have their PSU on the bottom - for some reason - so I guess at least one fan could be healthy.

[Yaunm]

Problem is, the pressured air inside will counter push and the fans will have to generate more force to maintain the same airflow, only to further increase inside air pressure, further increasing counter forces etc. It's like closing the intake of a vacuum cleaner.

That having said installing 4 intake fans and 4 outtake fans will work, but as said i fail to see any benefit in this dubious undertaking other than the coolness factor, unless the front panel is obstructed somehow, as you said like an extra fan. I had one pre-installed, turned it off. Literally no use for temperatures... Then again i also have a 140mm CPU cooler and i didn't cut the corners on the PSU either, so moving air is not really a problem in my case.

[Morkonan]

More fans can spin at a lower frequency in order to maintain a similar airflow, can't they? That means less noise, doesn't it?

Just my two-coppers worth of reasoning:

There isn't one computer element in a PC that cares anything about air-flow. It's all about heat transfer... IMO, maximizing that, using the standard cooling elements, would mean increasing the rate of airflow by volume per time unit. That could mean that trying to push the envelope in terms of heat-transfer will inevitably increase noise levels, at least with air colliding with obstructions if not from cavitation effects, which is the same thing, with fast-moving fants. (I doubt catastrophic over-pressure resulting in sonic shockwaves are an issue, though. But, it'd be darn cool if it was!) I don't know if standard case fans can reach that sort of speed. (Think extremely fast standard room fan and its fast "whump whump"/"buzzing" sound.)

To know the optimums, I would assume one would need to know the heat being generated, the efficiency of the radiators being used, the total surface area available, then calculate the best rate for heat transfer in air and how quickly that air can be moved so it always presents the best possible case at all times.

Or, just do like me and put a bunch of fans in there and be done with it... No maths necessary.

Problem is, the pressured air inside will counter push and the fans will have to generate more force to maintain the same airflow, only to further increase inside air pressure, further increasing counter forces etc. It's like closing the intake of a vacuum cleaner. ...

It's like a jet engine, where overpressure/backpressure can be disastrous, so the flow has to be balanced properly. Though, a PC case isn't going to explode because of internal overpressure.

Most of the problems that could develop are take care of by a few unpowered vents, here and there, and ensuring that there's a general airflow "direction" where it's difficult for the air to get trapped behind cards/compoonents/etc and backing up in the system or creating a baffle effect. Anything that obstructs, impedes, baffles, or restricts airflow in a case is a possible trouble spot.

And, at some point, a fan operating in a situation in which I/O is equal means it's spinning for no reason... So, yeah, the direction of flow is, indeed, important.

[ATTACK_HAMSTER]

An interesting video i watched about a 1 year PC airflow experiment.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dLX54ounENY&t=598s

[Morkonan]

An interesting video i watched about a 1 year PC airflow experiment.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dLX54ounENY&t=598s

Neat!

So, basically, for dust issues, my take-away from the vid is:

Intakes musts have good filters.
Outlets should be as unobstructed as possible. (Including not having filters on outlets.)
One of the best outflow areas may be the bottom, where dust may accumulate otherwise.
ore airflow going through the case means more chances for dust to move through the case, too, so overall air-quality is critical. (Change/clean whole-house filters, don't smoke or set off smokey fires near your PC, don't put your PC in areas where there is heavy construction...)

[pjknibbs]

Though, a PC case isn't going to explode because of internal overpressure.

You can have a damn good try, though:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EM2G5vLGcQQ

[Morkonan]

Though, a PC case isn't going to explode because of internal overpressure.

You can have a damn good try, though:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EM2G5vLGcQQ

Nice!

Just an observation - Those fans are driven by air-cooled motors and will eventually contribute a bit of heat to the case... I'm great fun at parties.

[Tamina]

You can have a damn good try, though:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EM2G5vLGcQQ

That is annoyingly unresponsible as it is funny

Just an observation - Those fans are driven by air-cooled motors and will eventually contribute a bit of heat to the case... I'm great fun at parties.

Not really, this is always the case even with smaller fans...

[Morkonan]

...
Not really, this is always the case even with smaller fans...

Not quite. The two types of fans are very different from each other. That large industrial fan's motor produces a bunch of heat, comparatively speaking, and the magnetically, "brushless motor" PC case fan has more efficiency, with less torque/hp.

Those look like direct-drive fans. No intervening transmission system. A smarter large fan would be a squirrel-cage type, like is used in most home air-movers in heating/AC units. You get pretty good efficiency, can have the motor outside the casing unit, and can move a lot of air. But... there's a lot more noise due to power transmission.

We really need to up the ante on moving heat. There are more ways to do it than air and liquids. At least, lots of different combinations we could use. Some of 'em... toxic. But, hey, anything for a few more fps, amiright?

[Tamina]

Okay, you caught my interest.

Not quite. The two types of fans are very different from each other. That large industrial fan's motor produces a bunch of heat, comparatively speaking, and the magnetically, "brushless motor" PC case fan has more efficiency, with less torque/hp.

Those look like direct-drive fans. No intervening transmission system. A smarter large fan would be a squirrel-cage type, like is used in most home air-movers in heating/AC units. You get pretty good efficiency, can have the motor outside the casing unit, and can move a lot of air. But... there's a lot more noise due to power transmission.

An AC synchronous motor, connected directly to the power grid, doesn't need any brushes as well?
*Edit: Anyway according to the specs, the bigger fan needs two to four times more power in order to move the same amount of air but apparently the additional airflow compensates this.

We really need to up the ante on moving heat. There are more ways to do it than air and liquids. At least, lots of different combinations we could use. Some of 'em... toxic. But, hey, anything for a few more fps, amiright?

I was genuinly suprised when I found out that "liquid coolers" are actually using liquids. That sounds highly inefficient. I was assuming they use evaporating fluids like in motors.

[pjknibbs]

An AC synchronous motor, connected directly to the power grid, doesn't need any brushes as well?

Such a device wouldn't spin either. The problem with a synchronous motor is that it can *only* run at synchronous speed, so you need to provide some method of getting such a motor up to speed before it will work. What they will often do is integrate a "squirrel cage" (as Mork mentioned) into the rotor of the synchronous motor--that allows you to run it up to near synchronous speed as an induction motor, then hope it flips into synchronisation.

The sort of motor they use in desk fans and the like tends to be a shaded pole induction motor. Induction motors have terrible low-speed torque, but that doesn't matter when your load is a fan, because the torque requirements for a fan rise pretty much linearly with speed--you don't need a big starting torque.