X4 as a 4X RTS?

[Falcrack]

I would love it if in X4, there was the option to play it as a massive scale RTS game. The way I envision it working would be as follows:

1. The player starts out in an empty sector as the sole representative of a given faction. You start out with a few basic resources, and maybe a factory or two, enough to get started and jumpstart your economy, but not enough to be overpowered.

2. At the same time, other AI-controlled factions start out at other scattered locations in the galaxy, with similar starting resources as you. They will start to mine resources, build freighters, construct factories, and grow their population. AI-controlled factions and player-owned factions could trade and do business with each other.

3. You could research how to build ships from your own faction through your own research stations, scan ships from other factions to be able to research their production (like the Mayhem mod, it is a hostile act and requires reduced target shields), or purchase ship blueprints from neutral 3rd parties.

4. With time, as factions expand, their borders begin to bump up against other, and competition for resources begins. They would need to expand rather than stay in one place, as each location would have a limit as to the maximum number of stations that could be supported, based on the local population size.

5. Population would reside on trade stations (limit of one per sector), and would need a constant supply of food and variety of consumer goods in order to grow the population up to the max size.

6. In addition to other competing factions, there could be neutral stations and NPC freighters throughout the galaxy, which do not attempt to expand but will trade with the other factions who do. They will exist to generate an endless supply of credits to factions that trade with them, provide a supply of resources for factions that lack particular resources, and as a resource sink for selling resources which are in excess for a faction. Goods from neutral factories and traders could be sold at trading docks, which would consume these goods over time at a rate proportional to the local population size.

7. The faction which controls a sector will receive credits from taxing the local population.

8. Both the player-controlled and AI-controlled factions would have the same capabilities in terms of available game mechanics, and the same limitations in terms of limited cash reserves.

9. You could play as a pirate faction, who would gain resources through salvaging and blowing stuff up, as well as trade in illegal goods. They would not manufacture ships, but would instead entice (or capture/board) random ships to their side from other factions. They would be able to disguise their ships as those of another factions in order to better commit their crimes.

10. You could play as the Xenon, who do not deal with credits or trade with other factions but instead have a strictly manufacturing and resource based economy, without the need for food. Population limitations would not exist for them, meaning no limits to stations per sector. All factions would be at war with them from the start.

11. Victory would come through control over a sufficiently large percentage of the galaxy. There would be a nice little cutscene, maybe a few fireworks to let the player know that he has “won” and should feel free to start another game, perhaps as a different race or with a higher difficulty level. Winning would require a significant time investment, at least 20+ hours, possibly much more depending on the starting conditions.


I have always wanted to play X3 as an RTS, but while some mods have come close to this, they all have fallen short, mainly because the factions you are competing against are always playing by a different set of rules in terms of production capacity, need for credits, etc., and to program a competent AI to challenge the player using the same game mechanics available to the player seems like the main limitation. I hope the AI for X4 would be up to the task to manage an empire like a player would.

Perhaps an “RTS” mode gamestart for X4 might be possible, separate from a campaign or the regular open sandbox universe. It would be a combination of a game where you can play from a first person perspective in your personal ship, while at the same time being able to control your empire from a higher level perspective.

Could X4 be the game that lays the Foundation for this type of large scale RTS gameplay? I sure hope so!

[radcapricorn]

...or you could just play Stellaris.

[A5PECT]

X games can definitely benefit from more RTS features and inspiration. But turning it into a dedicated RTS is going a bit far.

[Falcrack]

...or you could just play Stellaris.

With the ability to pilot ships, build custom stations, and everything else the X series does

[Fulgrymm]

What would you call this? Feature creep? Scope creep? Either way it's not an idea I find palatable.

[Tomonor]

Sounds more like an idea for a mod, not an X game.

[CBJ]

This would mean one of two things: either developing a whole new game that has relatively little to do with the rest of what we have (and splitting the already small team in two in order to do so), or making two whole games in one (and selling the result for the price of one, because people don't generally like paying double for one game). With all due respect, neither of these options are very appealing!

[Fureimuu]

Surprisingly we have Mayhem mode for Litcube's Universe that allows all of that. LU and Mayhem gave X3AP something that was missing in the vanilla game - purpose.

You now have to protect your space with fleets, you can now conquer space with your fleets, you have to build infrastructure to have supplies and make equipment. Yes, it is like a whole new game, but it has the same feeling the vanilla X3AP does, so I don't see why such things can't be added to the base game ...

[ZaphodBeeblebrox]

If I want to play a domination game, I'll stick with Civilisation, I prefer turn based strategy.

If I want to build a galaxy spanning space empire while flying spaceships and building / blowing stuff up then I want to be playing X4.

Some elements of what you suggest should be in the base game, but I don't want to play RTS. I have a real problem with those kinds of games, no matter how you wrap them up they are all the same game underneath. One which I have grown to dislike intensely over the years.

[Hector0x]

Sounds more like an idea for a mod, not an X game.

This.

The base game should not be like a RTS. Mayhem enforces a special playstyle which probably has a small fanbase. The freedom to do what ever you want just isn't that great.

But i'm pretty sure that there will be something like Mayhem X4 around in about 6 years.

For me the main difference between Mayhem and a typical RTS strategy game is that Mayhem is very slow paced in comparison. Major happenings take real time days which somehow gives everything more meaning. You feel connected and part of a great campaign where imho many RTS's play too fast to be taken seriously. (when capital ships get pumped out in minutes)

[Honved]

As said, not a bad idea for a drastic mod, or MAYBE even a spin-off project for the EGOSOFT team after X4 is released and sufficiently debugged. It shouldn't be a regular "X" series game, however.

A few RTS elements in the game might not be terrible, and a few things might even be beneficial, but turning this into an acutal RTS mouse-race (or click-fest) game would be a bad thing. I certainly wouldn't play it.

[mr.WHO]

I agree with idea "Make solid base game" and let mods do the wonders.

I'm happy with introduction of RTS interface with X4. Evenything else can be done by moders (see BlackRains' Conquest or New Frontier mods for X-Rebirth - if he port them to X4 then it will be EPIC!).

[Falcrack]

This would mean one of two things: either developing a whole new game that has relatively little to do with the rest of what we have (and splitting the already small team in two in order to do so), or making two whole games in one (and selling the result for the price of one, because people don't generally like paying double for one game). With all due respect, neither of these options are very appealing!

Well how about this question. Will the AI that you are developing be capable of expanding like the player, operate with limited credits like the player, and in almost all other important aspects be able to take advantage of game mechanics available to the player? If so, then would such an X4 RTS be within the realm of possibility for modding?

[Falcrack]

Surprisingly we have Mayhem mode for Litcube's Universe that allows all of that. LU and Mayhem gave X3AP something that was missing in the vanilla game - purpose.

You now have to protect your space with fleets, you can now conquer space with your fleets, you have to build infrastructure to have supplies and make equipment. Yes, it is like a whole new game, but it has the same feeling the vanilla X3AP does, so I don't see why such things can't be added to the base game ...

Mayhem is great. But the AI does not play by the same rules as the player. Sure, you have opposition, and can have some great fights conquering sectors. But it is not as if the AI factions are manufacturing ships like you are using resources, or limited in funds as you are. They have a fixed spawn rate, unrelated to the strength of their overall economy. Thus, it fails an important criteria of mine as a genuine RTS game.

[gbjbaanb]

What would you call this? Feature creep? Scope creep? Either way it's not an idea I find palatable.

I think its pretty much what people used to do with X3, except there was this minigame where you could fly around in a ship during the boring bits as your empire expanded

[Fureimuu]

Surprisingly we have Mayhem mode for Litcube's Universe that allows all of that. LU and Mayhem gave X3AP something that was missing in the vanilla game - purpose.

You now have to protect your space with fleets, you can now conquer space with your fleets, you have to build infrastructure to have supplies and make equipment. Yes, it is like a whole new game, but it has the same feeling the vanilla X3AP does, so I don't see why such things can't be added to the base game ...

Mayhem is great. But the AI does not play by the same rules as the player. Sure, you have opposition, and can have some great fights conquering sectors. But it is not as if the AI factions are manufacturing ships like you are using resources, or limited in funds as you are. They have a fixed spawn rate, unrelated to the strength of their overall economy. Thus, it fails an important criteria of mine as a genuine RTS game.

It's still better than nothing. I doubt we will have crazy smart next gen AI in X4 anyways ...

[spankahontis]

...or you could just play Stellaris.

Or Master of Orion

[BigBANGtheory]

I like the prospect of switching between Sim and RTS as I want in the context of 4X. So would I play X4 as pure RTS/4X? Only if it added something over and above Sins of a Solar Empire tbh... which of course X4 will on account of its simulation but then that defeats the OP's question.

[Cryonist]

I fail to understand how X games are not a real time strategy game? It's just also a lot more then just a random RTS.

All your suggestions seems like just a specific flavor of RTS you like. A bunch of them are available right now for you to play with if you download Mayhem. Modders are great, especially those that like panda's. If you want the game to encompass every specific detail of your flavor RTS your only solution will always be to start modding yourself.

[BigBANGtheory]

I fail to understand how X games are not a real time strategy game? It's just also a lot more then just a random RTS.

Exactly I made the same argument 12yrs ago and it seems X4 is by whatever measure you want to judge the realisation of that PoV held by many (developers included which is a good thing).