Mass driver - the most maligned weapon in the game

[Reven]

This was originally going to be a post responding to some people in the weapon chart thread, but then I thought it deserved its own topic.

I've noticed that mass drivers are absolutely the most maligned weapon in the game. Most everyone seems to like to heap scorn on it.

I just want to set the record straight on a few points. Mass drivers have their uses. I always carry them on every ship I own that is capable of it. There are times when I've been fighting ships where it's very useful. A ship's hull doesn't recharge - shields do. Being able to attack the hull directly in a fight that would otherwise be even can easily tip the scales. There have been many times I've been in a fight where I wasn't necesarily in any real danger, but I just didn't have the weapons punch to beat down the target's shields fast enough to get to the hull. In those cases, a mass driver has often made the difference.

Also, mass drivers are by far the best non-area-effect point defense weapon in the game. If you want to see an impressive sight, get Mark Laverty's Fight Command Mk.3 script - the one with the "Missile Strike" command. Next put together a squadron of 15 or 20 fighters together, and order them to perform a missile strike on an Argon Titan that is outfitted with mass drivers and my Hired Gunnery Crew script. Now sit back and watch the fireworks. It's an awesome sight to witness a Titan knock down 200 incoming missiles in 10 seconds. They have a blazing refire rate, ultra fast bullets, and are the lightest weapon in the game.

Last point... if you are still thinking about slagging the mass driver, ask yourself this... how far would you get in the game if every Khaak ship had mass drivers instead of Kyons? At the very least, you'd be visiting the repair docks a whole lot.

[pjknibbs]

If only cap ships had some dedicated point defence turrets to actually put those mass drivers on! Your example of a Titan equipped entirely with Mass Drivers may be good against missiles, but how long would it take to wear down a Xenon K or a Khaak M2?

[Domoso]

Now, I don't know much about scripts in X2 but, it seems to me that anything outside of the signed scripts area is adding features not meant to be included in the game. With that in mind doesn't that inflate the usefulness, destructive capacity of any weapon in the game? I mean, sure, lets write a script to make our weapons 100% accurate. Lets also get a script to make missles more intelligent so they dodge on coming weapons fire.....etc.....etc.....etc. With scripts that inflate and alter a ships ability to deliver weapons fire, it gives one a skewed view of their destructive potential.

[softweir]

Another way of thinking of it is that the game AI absolutely fails to be anywhere near as intelligent as the AI you would expect of a military-grade battleship built 1,000s of years in the future with who knows what improvements in AI technology? Any script that makes the AI less pathetically weak can only be an improvement, IF applied in a balanced fashion, so that player-owned ships and fleets match AI ships and fleets, even though at a much higher level of competence. If scripts are chosen so as to make things ridiculously easy for the player then yes, I agree, the player is doing himself a disservice.

[frymaster]

you don't have to worry about killing M2s with mass drivers, the turret commands script will swap back to a more effective weapon automatically

[The_T]

seems to me like the rear turret on a nova is a good place for a mass driver, set to missle defense. An IRE or PAC is pretty much useless back there anyway.

[RPEH]

seems to me like the rear turret on a nova is a good place for a mass driver, set to missle defense. An IRE or PAC is pretty much useless back there anyway.

I have to disagree with that. When I used to fly a Nova I used an Alpha IRE on the back turret and loved to hear the frantic pings as it fired followed by the explosion of the missile. It's just as good as a mass driver, plus you don't have to waste valuable jumpdrive fuel space on ammo.

[IvanT]

You have a good few fair points Reven, however I think people pour scorn on the current Mass Driver due to its weakness.

Imho, Mass Drivers should be a class based weapon, with damage rate and damage per shot based upon

a) The class of ship
b) What weapons it can hold
c) The level of ammunition

That may not make much sense perhaps, but look at it this way. M5's carry mass driver ammo 1/2 as powerful as the current mass driver ammo, M4's carry ammo 2/3rd's as powerful, M3's carry ammo as powerful as current, plus more expensive ammo that is 1.75 as strong as current ammo.

TL's carry ammo 1.5 times as powerful as current.
M6's carry ammo twice as powerful.
M2's carry ammo three times as powerful
M1's carry ammo four times as powerful

Do you see where this is going.
I think the main issue as of X2 1.4 is the lack of any real class based projectile weaponry for mass drivers. The same ammo works on all ships, with no compensation for ship class or size.

Will have to wait and see what the future brings..

[Reven]

Now, I don't know much about scripts in X2 but, it seems to me that anything outside of the signed scripts area is adding features not meant to be included in the game.

Depends on the script. In this case (I assume you're talking about the Hired Gunnery Crews script with the automatic weapon switching) stay tuned.

With that in mind doesn't that inflate the usefulness, destructive capacity of any weapon in the game? I mean, sure, lets write a script to make our weapons 100% accurate.

The script doesn't make the weapons more accurate. The Mass Driver has that property all on its own.

Lets also get a script to make missles more intelligent so they dodge on coming weapons fire.....etc.....etc.....etc. With scripts that inflate and alter a ships ability to deliver weapons fire, it gives one a skewed view of their destructive potential.

People who use unsigned scripts all have their own definition of what point a script is "cheating". Every script, signed or unsigned inflates the ability of the player to do something. They have to - that's their purpose. If they didn't, then why would we as scripters bother to write them, as users bother to install them, and why would we as players pay for the "upgrade" that provides it in game?

In any case, the purpose in this thread wasn't to tout my turret script - just to point out that mass drivers have a very useful niche that they fill. I want to stop the complaining that sometimes occurs just because they don't strip hull like a GHEPT, or blow away Khaak clusters like a PSG. They aren't that kind of weapon.

If you don't want to use the turret script because it's unsigned, that's fine. Just wait. Or you can opt to switch one of the three turret guns in a couple M2 turrets for a mass driver for better point defense on turrets that have "Missile defense" orders. Or you can put a couple mass drivers as alternate weapons on a Centaur, or Nova. A Centaur with mass drivers all around can take out an M2. I bet a Nova could too, I just haven't tried.

Think of it as a niche weapon. It has its place where it's useful, and place where it isn't.

[Rapier]

If only cap ships had some dedicated point defence turrets to actually put those mass drivers on! Your example of a Titan equipped entirely with Mass Drivers may be good against missiles, but how long would it take to wear down a Xenon K or a Khaak M2?

Xenon K - 93 seconds using one turret (3 mass drivers)

[Kailric]

Now, I don't know much about scripts in X2 but, it seems to me that anything outside of the signed scripts area is adding features not meant to be included in the game. With that in mind doesn't that inflate the usefulness, destructive capacity of any weapon in the game? I mean, sure, lets write a script to make our weapons 100% accurate. Lets also get a script to make missles more intelligent so they dodge on coming weapons fire.....etc.....etc.....etc. With scripts that inflate and alter a ships ability to deliver weapons fire, it gives one a skewed view of their destructive potential.

My 2 cents...

"anything outside of the signed scripts area is adding features not meant to be included in the game"??? How in the world do you think a script gets singed? A scripter writes a script, posts it to the public and if they like it, he summits it for signing...duh! Us scriters need feedback from players to better write scripts that fit into the X2 universe. If all players where like you and just waited for them to get signed it would take so much longer to get signed scripts...thankfully not all players hold your philosophy...

And you can't write a script to make weapons 100% accurate or make missiles dodge on comeing laser fire, there are no scripting commands for that...just so you know.

[spence336]

i like the idea of different types of shell for mass drivers, makes the weapons more...useful and lives up to its name

[xenon_pimp]

I don't find MD's to be that useless. I dock a Mamba with MD's on my Ray when I go on Xenon K capturing missions. Just a couple sqeezes on the trigger knocks it down a couple hull percent. I have no doubt I could kill a Xenon K with the ammo on a Mamba and a few minutes of time.

[giskard]

I agree with IvanT here, I think his solution is a nice one.

MDs are too weak for use on or against ships bigger than an M3 right now. I keep saying this but I keep hearing the same replies reguarding the Xenons and MDs.

Try putting 4 MDs on a Centaur and attack another M6.

Do it in the stand game so no extern tweaking is effecting the results then post your findings.

Just dont expect to be back here quickly, it took me 30minutes to drop an Ospreys Hull by 10% using 4 MDs and lots of ammo. It ate up half my ammo to get that much damage but I was facing 4 Ospreys in one Centaur at the time.

I normall use BHEPTS and GHEPTS and using those I can do most assination missions in 10 minutes.

The facts speak for them selves here considering BHEPTs and MDs are within the same price range.

MDs are great weapon for M4s to use against freighters and M3s. Without them they probably wouldnt stand a chance because of the shield recharge rate problem vs IREs.

Mixed in with other weapons on a cap ship the may uses against small Xenon N's and missiles too. But as the main offensive weapon they are not worth their cost right now.

Id like to see them either priced correctly for use on an M4 of vastly improved for use on bigger ships.

Giskard

[johnstrt]

If only cap ships had some dedicated point defence turrets to actually put those mass drivers on! Your example of a Titan equipped entirely with Mass Drivers may be good against missiles, but how long would it take to wear down a Xenon K or a Khaak M2?

Xenon K - 93 seconds using one turret (3 mass drivers)

Close to my own experience. I quite like MDS, especially fitted to an M2 taking on multiple targets: the damage may be slow, but it sticks. They'd be much more useful, though, if you could do something with the energy you save (like pumping up your shields or getting a burst of speed): thateally add some variety.

[xenon_pimp]

I disagree that the MD is the most maligned weapon. The mining laser clearly has even less fans of its combat prowess. And yet I have killed a KM5 with one before.

[darkmaster]

In fact the game lacks the shield management, but X universe is not set in a so far future.

[Reven]

I disagree that the MD is the most maligned weapon. The mining laser clearly has even less fans of its combat prowess.

Actually, the mining laser is never maligned - and the reason why it's not maligned is also the reason why the MD is maligned.

The issue is that of expectations. The Boron have the IonD - and it's a weapon that can be used in many situations. The Paranid have the PSG - and it's almost a twink weapon because it's too effective. The Argon have the PPC - which isn't unique, but then the Argon have the ability to use all the other race's special wepaons, so it's a fair trade. The Split's Mass Driver is expected to perform like the other race's specialties. People had higher expectations of it, and so people were dissappointed. And because they were dissappointed, it gets maligned.

The mass driver was never intended to be another PSG, or IonD. It was intended to have a narrower scope. Point defense is one area it shines. the other is attrition of an enemy you couldn't normally get beyond the shields of. A very slow attrition, but... hull doesn't heal.

I don't think anyone expected the mining laser to be an effective combat weapon. In actuality, though, it performs in that role very effectively in OoS combat (which is just one example of why OoS combat needs reform but that's another topic).

[Miklatov]

MD deserves a lot of respect.

I bought a titan last night and kitted it out with 6 IDs and 12 MDs, tickled 3 pirate bases and capped about 35-40 ships (10 Oris).

Not the best money making technique but it's great fun, and the MD is a superb weapon for this purpose.

Obviously I will not be going into any Xenon sectors like this though

[giskard]

Well i finally did a proper test with an M4 fitted with a single MD last night.

Here are my findings.

It takes 3 Ammo and 1 MD to take down 1 Orinoco with 50mw shields.

MD ammo costs 1400 credits roughly, x 3 i= 4200 which gives you a profit of 800 credits per Orinoco if you have a police licience. Time taken to destroy an Orinico compared to an GIRE is very good but compared to a AHEPT its extremely bad.

Taking on any M4 or M5 shows the MD at its best but again if you can fit any other weapon your in for an easier time over all.

Against Pirate ships you can use up between 6 and 9 ammo taking 1 ship out. AHEPTs can do the same job for free in a fraction of the time.

If your pirate hunting with Mds, i recommend taking on M3s only since your going to lose money taking on anything else.

At least thats my findings.

Cargo and Ship Captures can make it profitable but since i was not able to capture a ship with Mds i dont know if it can even be done.

Giskard