Modified tag discussion split from interface thread

Apoch · Post by **Apoch** » Fri, 6. May 05, 05:03

It's more than paid itself off in the development side for refuting "bug" reports from people who have hordes of crap scripts installed and refuse to send in saved games. Maybe it's annoying, but it's hardly purposeless.

Post by **Nanook** » Fri, 6. May 05, 08:17

Apoch wrote:It's more than paid itself off in the development side for refuting "bug" reports from people who have hordes of crap scripts installed and refuse to send in saved games. Maybe it's annoying, but it's hardly purposeless.

It may serve the devs well, but it doesn't serve the game well. There are uncounted numbers of players put off of scripts and scripting because of that label. Just read some of the anti-unsigned script posts in this thread alone. Egosoft would be better advised to come up with a less obtrusive way to distinguish between modified and unmodified games if they're serious about players using both the script engine and scripts in general. Scripting and modding are two of the major selling points for a lot of players, both those who like to create them and those who like to use them. And annoying just doesn't cut it from the consumer side of things. Annoying things don't get bought!

I challenge you to name just one other game developer that has done this sort of thing. As a counter example, Bethesda Softworks produced a great game in Morrowind, with a very powerful modding tool, that has undoubtedly caused a lot problems in debugging their game. But they do not annoy the gamer by putting some immersion destroying mark or tag on the main screen. I've personally put in hundreds of hours playing this game, with a number of unsigned scripts and mods, even a couple of my own. If I didn't have the no-modified-tag mod, I don't think I would have played the game with that label visible all the time.

LV · Post by LV » Fri, 6. May 05, 20:27

Nanook wrote:
Apoch wrote:It's more than paid itself off in the development side for refuting "bug" reports from people who have hordes of crap scripts installed and refuse to send in saved games. Maybe it's annoying, but it's hardly purposeless.
It may serve the devs well, but it doesn't serve the game well. There are uncounted numbers of players put off of scripts and scripting because of that label. Just read some of the anti-unsigned script posts in this thread alone. Egosoft would be better advised to come up with a less obtrusive way to distinguish between modified and unmodified games if they're serious about players using both the script engine and scripts in general. Scripting and modding are two of the major selling points for a lot of players, both those who like to create them and those who like to use them. And annoying just doesn't cut it from the consumer side of things. Annoying things don't get bought!

I challenge you to name just one other game developer that has done this sort of thing. As a counter example, Bethesda Softworks produced a great game in Morrowind, with a very powerful modding tool, that has undoubtedly caused a lot problems in debugging their game. But they do not annoy the gamer by putting some immersion destroying mark or tag on the main screen. I've personally put in hundreds of hours playing this game, with a number of unsigned scripts and mods, even a couple of my own. If I didn't have the no-modified-tag mod, I don't think I would have played the game with that label visible all the time.

couldnt put it better myself

[ external image ]

kinda refutes the testing reason and if you can't be assed sending in a save game you can go whistle anyway

I still believe ego got wasted partying and implemented one of baldricks cunning plans regarding this issue and i still recall the joy i had after some unknown diamond geezer found a way to get rid of that tag less than 4 hrs after the 1.3 patch release.

thrangar · Post by **thrangar** » Sat, 7. May 05, 00:39

Apoch wrote:It's more than paid itself off in the development side for refuting "bug" reports from people who have hordes of crap scripts installed and refuse to send in saved games. Maybe it's annoying, but it's hardly purposeless.

Dude you need to chill out a bit..I was talking about the modified tag and how much it destroyed my enjoyment of the game simply because I was/am running a script that didnt ship with the game.

Also I do know what I am talking about "my Enjoyment" not yours not Nanooks not anyone elses.

If X3 requires as you say a modified tag on my screen to help ego make their game then I dont want X3.

That is not a threat just a veiw point from a fan or maybe an X fan

Cheers/Thrangar

Apoch · Post by **Apoch** » Sat, 7. May 05, 01:17

thrangar wrote:Dude you need to chill out a bit..I was talking about the modified tag and how much it destroyed my enjoyment of the game simply because I was/am running a script that didnt ship with the game.

Also I do know what I am talking about "my Enjoyment" not yours not Nanooks not anyone elses.

Um... what? I never said anything about your enjoyment. I never said you didn't know what you were talking about. Heck, I never even said anything to or about you at all.

All I said was that the tag has had a benefit, whether you will admit it or not. I'm entirely unsure as to how this means I need to "chill out a bit."

esd · Post by **esd** » Sat, 7. May 05, 02:05

All I said was that the tag has had a benefit, whether you will admit it or not. I'm entirely unsure as to how this means I need to "chill out a bit."

Considering, as LV correctly stated, it was removed within hours of the patch's release, the MODIFIED tag is far from beneficial. In fact, it was a big fat waste of Egosoft's time. It's a waste of OUR time too, because we have to go to the trouble of removing it (not that doing so is particularly hard).

Nanook wrote:I challenge you to name just one other game developer that has done this sort of thing.

I note with considerable amusement that Apoch was unable to rise to this challenge.

Apoch · Post by **Apoch** » Sat, 7. May 05, 04:09

esd wrote:Considering, as LV correctly stated, it was removed within hours of the patch's release, the MODIFIED tag is far from beneficial.

I believe you've confused "beneficial" with "effective." Considering you have no knowledge whatsoever of the cases I alluded to, I don't think you're really the qualified one to judge whether or not there was benefit involved in the tag. I never said it was an ideal or even effective tool - only that it did do some good for the development team, which it did.

esd wrote:I note with considerable amusement that Apoch was unable to rise to this challenge.

I challenge you to solve a dynamical system with seven degrees of freedom.

Oh, wait, both of those things are completely contrived and pointless. You're right, I must be very stupid and have absolutely no defensible case whatsoever, because I can't answer a loaded question!

Post by **Nanook** » Sat, 7. May 05, 09:27

Apoch wrote: Oh, wait, both of those things are completely contrived and pointless. You're right, I must be very stupid and have absolutely no defensible case whatsoever, because I can't answer a loaded question!

Only your example is contrived, and has no bearing whatsoever on the topic at hand. The fact that you try, and fail, to discredit a valid argument in defense of an indefensible position clearly demonstrates you have no valid counter argument. And my challenge is not a 'loaded question'. It's a challenge, and as such, either you can accept it, and prove me wrong, or you can decline, which proves my point. And in case you forgot, the point is that the modified tag is inappropriate from a gaming standpoint and detracts from the player's enjoyment of the game. So please be a gracious loser and stop trying to insult our intelligence.

Post by **CBJ** » Sat, 7. May 05, 10:57

How about getting back on-topic?

esd · Post by **esd** » Sat, 7. May 05, 11:25

Apoch wrote:
esd wrote:Considering, as LV correctly stated, it was removed within hours of the patch's release, the MODIFIED tag is far from beneficial.
I believe you've confused "beneficial" with "effective."

You're the one that called it beneficial.

Apoch wrote:I said was that the tag has had a benefit

See?

Apoch wrote:Oh, wait, both of those things are completely contrived and pointless. You're right, I must be very stupid and have absolutely no defensible case whatsoever, because I can't answer a loaded question!

Obviously, as you've chosen to attack us rather than answer to a quite simple challenge.

Apoch wrote: and has no bearing whatsoever on the topic at hand

So you're telling me the MODIFIED tag is not part of the game interface? It's there, on the screen, telling us the game is modified. Therefore, it is INTERFACING with us. Therefore, it is part of the game interface.

CBJ wrote:How about getting back on-topic?

We are. As I just described, the MODIFIED tag is part of the game interface, which is what this thread is about.

This reminds me in part of many Paxman interviews I have seen, where he asks a politician a yes/no question ten times in a row and still the politician refuses to answer. The politician always looked stupid.

Post by **CBJ** » Sat, 7. May 05, 11:35

The thread was about mouse interface vs keyboard and joystick control. This isn't, so it gets to be in a thread all of its own.

Keep it friendly now please chaps.

Tigerhawk71 · Post by **Tigerhawk71** » Sat, 7. May 05, 11:45

not having used any scripts yet (wanting to play a "pure" X2 until i grow bored with it, shall we say. same deal with morrowind for me - got game, got patches, got official plugins, got bored, got mods) i don't know what the hell this MODIFIED tag that apparently caused the earths orbit to shift and now were plunging into the sun to die a horrible, but quite toasty warm, death...

can someone please explain what this is? are we talking a giant billboard in every sector that says "YOU ARE PLAYING A GAME WITH A MOD" or are we talking a little word somewhere in the corner thats become the proverbial molehill mountain?

esd · Post by **esd** » Sat, 7. May 05, 11:49

can someone please explain what this is? are we talking a giant billboard in every sector that says "YOU ARE PLAYING A GAME WITH A MOD" or are we talking a little word somewhere in the corner thats become the proverbial molehill mountain?

To some they are one and the same.

It's a semi-opaque piece of text imposed on the top-left hand corner of the screen, and despite Egosoft's assertions that it doesn't affect gameplay, it's extremely noticable, extremely immersion-destroying and generally a bit of a pain in the butt. Also, so far, it's unjustified.

Tigerhawk71 · Post by **Tigerhawk71** » Sat, 7. May 05, 11:52

kinda like the tiny little icon in the bottom right? (what is that FOR anyway?)

.. i can see the point now, thankyou. and yes, that would kinda destroy the immersion.. and.. there's apparently a script to be rid of it, too?

esd · Post by **esd** » Sat, 7. May 05, 11:56

(what is that FOR anyway?)

That tells you what camera view you're on. If Egosoft were determined to have some modified symbol on the gamescreen, a much better choice in my opinion would be to simply change the colour of that icon. Much less noticable, in fact most players probably wouldn't even realise it was there.

Tigerhawk71 · Post by **Tigerhawk71** » Sat, 7. May 05, 12:02

ah.. now i know whats its for.. i never knew.. spent many a docked station visit staring, wondering...

and you make a very good point on it, too. change the color of it and everyone wins.

esd · Post by **esd** » Sat, 7. May 05, 12:07

change the color of it and everyone wins.

Exactly. Why Egosoft chose such an intrusive and clunky method is beyond me, as is why Apoch is determined to defend it so vehemontly.

LV was right when he said it was one of baldricks cunning plans.

cf_nz · Post by **cf_nz** » Sat, 7. May 05, 12:22

esd wrote:That tells you what camera view you're on.

I always wondered about that but never bothered to ask.

esd wrote:If Egosoft were determined to have some modified symbol on the gamescreen, a much better choice in my opinion would be to simply change the colour of that icon. Much less noticable, in fact most players probably wouldn't even realise it was there.

That's a brilliant idea IMO. Just make a subtle change to something that is already there rather than adding something obvious (just for the record the current modified tag no longer bothers me, though it did put me off at first).

esd · Post by **esd** » Sat, 7. May 05, 12:28

I too realised that it could be a decent alternative, so I've posted the idea in Devnet: http://www.egosoft.com/x2/forum/viewtop ... 779#972779

(just for the record the current modified tag no longer bothers me, though it did put me off at first).

It doesn't for most of us anymore, as we've scripted it out. The concept itself is annoying.

Wolfkin · Post by **Wolfkin** » Sat, 7. May 05, 17:20

How about this then, I have the English 1.2 version of the game. As soon as I update it with a patch the "modified tag" shows up.
Note that this is only the original game with a patch, no mods, no scripts installed.
What gives?