The whole X2 economy system is messed up!?!

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DeathAndPain
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The whole X2 economy system is messed up!?!

Post by DeathAndPain » Wed, 22. Jun 05, 22:48

I am totally puzzled why the whole X2 economy system is so full of obvious bugs and Egosoft has never cared to fix them in all the patches.
  • Most resources usually cost more at the places where they are produced than at the places where they are needed. I know there is some fluctuation, but this rule applies to most goods no matter what. They are cheapest at the Trading Stations, also cheaper than at the factories that they produce them, and most expensive at the places where they are created! Even if you manage to catch them at a rather cheap price, the difference to what you can sell them for is minimal. Pretty much the only exceptions to this are energy cells, argnu beef, ore, and silicon wafers. Silicon wafers are the only really profitable good to trade until deep into the game. Without them, the game would be pretty much unplayable.
  • Investing in factories makes little sense as well. Those that I tried do not produce goods of higher value than what the stuff costs that I have to supply them with. Silicon mines may be an exception, but only until the price for silicon goes down galaxy-wide because you keep selling everywhere. And in order to profit from silicon, you do not need to set up expensive factories complete with freighters. You can as well buy cheap silicon and sell expensively and make at least as much profit per time.
My economic buildup went as follows:

I started with two silicon mines in ore belt. These had the positive effect that I got silicon wafers without having to pay the 227 credits/each. The downside was that they needed tons of energy cells, which were not free. Still there may have been some profit left.

I decided to add a power plant right besides in order to make my own energy cells. However, I found that crystals were a primary resource for my plant (while being only a secondary resource for every other plant). I got more than enough energy cells to supply both silicon mines, but every few minutes I had to allocate another 100000 credits for new crystals. The energy cells that I produced were hardly worth more than I had to pay for the crystals. Still a slight profit here (although nothing that would have justified the investition for the power plant and freighters).

I finally decided to add a crystal fab. This appeared an exceptionally smart move to me, because I could provide it with silicon wafers from my mines and use the created crystals for the power plant, finally ending the constant money drain through crystal buying. I planned on selling the surplus crystals for good profit.

However, the crystal output of the crystal fab was so pathetic that it barely sufficed to power my power plant. There was no surplus. The whole output of one crystal fab is needed to power one single power plant! The whole galaxy economy would break down if the CPU plants also had to obey this rule. Okay, I no longer had to pay for the crystals, but I found myself needing huge amounts of cahoona meatsteaks! These were hard to acquire (I needed to regularly visit several surrounding systems in order to get enough of them to the crystal fab), and they cost me so much that my whole profit (which came from the surplus silicon wafers) was eaten up. In fact, the crystal fab caused my whole economy (which had never been convincing compared to the cost to set it up) to become completely unprofitable.

Okay, I could shut down the crystal fab and do without it, but that does not solve the basic problem: The whole economy system of the game is majorly messed up!! It does not seem wise to buy any factories at all (unless factories other than the ones that I used do a whole lot better - in comparison to the cost of the resources that they need).

X2 is not primarily a space combat game like Freelancer. Instead, it has its priority on space trade and buildup. And if this core component is messed up, what is then left of the game???

And it would be so easy to fix that, way easier than fixing other bugs. I mean, how hard can it be to set price standards so that resources are usually cheaper at the places where they are made than at those where they are needed? And how hard can it be to make a factory that needs expensive resources produce enough of its output goods so that running that factory is worthwhile?

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Post by j_snare » Wed, 22. Jun 05, 23:05

Welcome to the club. :D

Quite a few people have done a lot of looking into how messed up the economy is, and you're right, of course. The key is to understand how everything fits together, regardless.

One of the essential keys is that, assuming asteroids of about 25 or 26, all fabs use the full output of the other fabs for production, except for SPPs, which produce enough energy for the production of 8-9 other fabs. This is where Looping comes from. Also, the entire storage is generally to be used over several hours, going constantly.

For example, my Cahoona Bakery uses the entire production of a Cattle Ranch (and some energy), if both are going constantly. And my Crystal Fab uses the entire production of the Cahoona Bakery, as well as Energy and the entire production of a Silicon Mine built on a yield 26 asteroid. That gives me a loop of having 4 stations supporting my SPP, and the SPP supporting those 4, plus 4-5 others for free.

Thus, the economy works, even though it's not the most realistic. You can make a profit at any level, even though the most profitable venture is the SPP. You can make a very steady profit doing pretty much anything.

As far as Egosoft, no, they really couldn't fix a problem *this* large in a patch or two. The entire economy is hosed. They'd have to redo the entire game to properly fix it. Guess what? They are. It's called X3. Apparently the economy has had a major overhaul in the next version. Will it be good and make sense? No idea. Will it be great? No idea. But I have faith that it will "work", and I'm sure it will make more sense than the current one. :P

Edit: BTW, go here. Look at the "Downloads" section, under X2 Economy. It's one of the most informative and interesting reads as far as the X2 economy goes, and things make a lot more sense, as far as the game is concerned. It may not be realistic, but the gameplay makes a lot more sense.
Last edited by j_snare on Wed, 22. Jun 05, 23:09, edited 1 time in total.
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TYBRO
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Re: The whole X2 economy system is messed up!?!

Post by TYBRO » Wed, 22. Jun 05, 23:05

DeathAndPain wrote:
  • Most resources usually cost more at the places where they are produced than at the places where they are needed. I know there is some fluctuation, but this rule applies to most goods no matter what. They are cheapest at the Trading Stations, also cheaper than at the factories that they produce them, and most expensive at the places where they are created! Even if you manage to catch them at a rather cheap price, the difference to what you can sell them for is minimal. Pretty much the only exceptions to this are energy cells, argnu beef, ore, and silicon wafers. Silicon wafers are the only really profitable good to trade until deep into the game. Without them, the game would be pretty much unplayable.
Well your writing is exeptional but you gaming apparently not, I have around 30 factories that produce 3 millions credits an hour of real time, is you consider that a buged economy,..well ...

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Lutzie
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Post by Lutzie » Wed, 22. Jun 05, 23:07

TYBRO: He's right, there are some seriously flaws in the economy. Sure, you can make profit, but the most profitably factories are very often the bottom tier one.
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terrabyte
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Post by terrabyte » Wed, 22. Jun 05, 23:09

  • But in X3 it has been mooted that the economy will be a lot more volatile and dynamic than any of the previous models.
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Post by Graaf » Wed, 22. Jun 05, 23:09

That would be an hour on SETA x10.

But you also noticed this. Its based on the supply and demand business. And the game is very precise in following this principle.

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Post by Melter » Wed, 22. Jun 05, 23:11

I'm sure you don't think that you are the first person to question the balance of X2s trade setup, this is a topic that is normally somewhere on the first forum page.
But in a nutshell, this is a game and an economy that is set within these parametres because they work; it's not a real ecnomoy with real demands and economic trends, the EQ docks buy and destroy items continuosly to keep things ticking along for instance.

Points that might help you are:
a) SPPs running at 100% can supply 9 fabs
b) Ore fabs running on 26 yield roids run 1 fab
c) All other fabs supply 1 fab.

So, your crys fab running at full capacity will supply your SPP which in turn will then supply 8 fabs more with EC s, this means that it can supply a beef fab, cahoona bakery, silicon mine and the crys fab, 4 fabs in total. That leaves you 5 portions of ECs to supply pure profit items, eg 5 Wheat farms.

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Post by Galaxy613 » Wed, 22. Jun 05, 23:13

But X3 will fallow a NEW model, the ROI model, check out the thread here.
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TYBRO
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Post by TYBRO » Wed, 22. Jun 05, 23:15

Lutzie wrote:TYBRO: He's right, there are some seriously flaws in the economy. Sure, you can make profit, but the most profitably factories are very often the bottom tier one.
I know guys. Is not real ...is not as we all would like it to be, but let be realistic, first it is a game and is we look to other games; this one has a very impressive job done with the economy.

At least we can make profit and other things

Is new player see that topic might think down to the game because of the "all bugged economy"

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Post by Rapier » Wed, 22. Jun 05, 23:18

Well, you got halfway there but somhow went down the wrong logical path and ended up lost. The principal of the economy is basically sound, high supply means low prices, low supply means high demand means high prices. The 'mess up' is that there is not enough energy in the universe, this leads ultimately to low supply/high demand for practically everything. That's why buying rom fixed pice trading stations can be the way to go. The solution is not to fiddle with prices but, as I've said many times before, to increase the production rate of NPC SPPs.

As for the profitability of your own factories: If you do the sums, you'll find that farms make about 20-30k per hour, Food fabs 30-50k and tech fabs 50-70k. This is if the supplies are available at appropriate prices (see above).

Chuck 20 SPPs in the right sectors and not onlyy will you make a lot of money, you'll also increase your opportunities to make a lot more.
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TYBRO
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Post by TYBRO » Wed, 22. Jun 05, 23:23

Graaf wrote:That would be an hour on SETA x10.

But you also noticed this. Its based on the supply and demand business. And the game is very precise in following this principle.
no my friend, thats an hour of real time not zeta :) , is the question was for me because of my reply before

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Post by esd » Thu, 23. Jun 05, 00:06

Galaxy613 wrote:But X3 will fallow a NEW model, the ROI model, check out the thread here.
Um, he just says that he's "heard", providing no sources, and saying he hopes it's so.

It's not been confirmed at all, let alone even mentioned as far as I am aware.
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Post by BlueSwede » Thu, 23. Jun 05, 00:15

They really should have hired one or two economists to develope an working economy ...

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Post by esd » Thu, 23. Jun 05, 00:22

BlueSwede wrote:They really should have hired one or two economists to develope an working economy ...
The economy works, as in you can buy things, sell things and make profit.

As for hiring economists, that takes money. Egosoft are one step up from indie developers, which is one of the reasons I like them so much :)
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Re: The whole X2 economy system is messed up!?!

Post by TerrorTrooper » Thu, 23. Jun 05, 00:28

TYBRO wrote:
DeathAndPain wrote:
  • Most resources usually cost more at the places where they are produced than at the places where they are needed. I know there is some fluctuation, but this rule applies to most goods no matter what. They are cheapest at the Trading Stations, also cheaper than at the factories that they produce them, and most expensive at the places where they are created! Even if you manage to catch them at a rather cheap price, the difference to what you can sell them for is minimal. Pretty much the only exceptions to this are energy cells, argnu beef, ore, and silicon wafers. Silicon wafers are the only really profitable good to trade until deep into the game. Without them, the game would be pretty much unplayable.
Well your writing is exeptional but you gaming apparently not, I have around 30 factories that produce 3 millions credits an hour of real time, is you consider that a buged economy,..well ...
maybey im wrong, but as far as im awere, but theres no factory in X2 that can theoreticly produce 3 million an hour...

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Post by j_snare » Thu, 23. Jun 05, 00:43

Uhh, I think he's talking more about that he's averaging 100K per factory, per hour. Not theoretically unreasonable, if he's using mostly SPPs.
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Post by thrangar » Thu, 23. Jun 05, 00:43

esd wrote:
BlueSwede wrote:They really should have hired one or two economists to develope an working economy ...
The economy works, as in you can buy things, sell things and make profit.

As for hiring economists, that takes money. Egosoft are one step up from indie developers, which is one of the reasons I like them so much :)

I know I am in this corner alone but I would have been more thrilled to hear an anouncement that they hired an economist rather than a plot writer :D

Cheers/Thrangar

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Re: The whole X2 economy system is messed up!?!

Post by esd » Thu, 23. Jun 05, 00:47

TerrorTrooper wrote:maybey im wrong, but as far as im awere, but theres no factory in X2 that can theoreticly produce 3 million an hour...
Hmm, what he said was:
Well your writing is exeptional but you gaming apparently not, I have around 30 factories that produce 3 millions credits an hour of real time, is you consider that a buged economy,..well ...
So:

3,000,000 / 30 = 100,000

100,000 per realtime hour is not unheard of.
thrangar wrote:I know I am in this corner alone but I would have been more thrilled to hear an anouncement that they hired an economist rather than a plot writer :D
No you're not, I mean really, who gives a damn about the plot?
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Post by The_Seeker » Thu, 23. Jun 05, 06:59

I've always wondered if the unbalanced economy wasn't designed that way on purpose. Mind you, I'm NOT talking about how it's broken (though it might have been an unintentional result of the other), I'm talking about the deficits that abound everywhere. I'm almost convinced the designers did it this way not only to make it easy for a player to get a financial empire started, but to force the player to do so. :roll:

If a player take no part in the x-economy eventually all ability for NPC stations to buy/sell products is lost. Everywhere. So how is the player going to equip their ships? They have to somehow kick-start the economy. There's no escape. Either you get involved or you get forced into getting involved. Plus once you start building you're also forced into fixing the local deficits/economy where your properties are located in order for them to be profitable. And the deficits are everywhere! Since the player depends on equipment from all the different races to equip their ships with, you're forced to fix everybody's economy! :teladi:

Unintentional? :sceptic: That's a bit hard for me to swallow. So yeah, I think the economy was designed that way on purpose without realizing this would break the economy and turn the whole pyramid scheme upsidedown.


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Post by j_snare » Thu, 23. Jun 05, 07:17

Designed that way on purpose? Oh, I'm definately sure of that. You can find evidence in the way that Secondary Resources and the item sinks are included. The Trading Stations are likely supposed to be set up as government subsidies as well. They wanted to make it easy to find a place in the economy. The economy isn't completely crippled, so you could find equipment eventually anyway, but true, it does help. But after I thought about it, there are actually some brilliant ideas involved, just some basics that are sorta broken.. Oops. :wink:

As far as being unintentional and all, yes, that's why a lot of people wish that they would have hired an economist rather than a writer. :)
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