[POLL] Would you use Steam for Rebirth?

General discussions about X Rebirth.

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Would you purchase Rebirth if Steam is required...

Just for activation
210
9%
For activation and updates
1478
63%
I would never use Steam if it was the last surviving games platform
603
26%
If Steam required periodic log-ins to check your install
62
3%
 
Total votes: 2353

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Sam L.R. Griffiths
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Post by Sam L.R. Griffiths » Sat, 10. Aug 13, 22:32

slimgrin wrote:
TTD wrote:...
They don't need to. Make it available on all distributors and host mods on Nexus or any other site.
Utilising Steam Workshop for mods does not preclude the use of other mod management sites and/or mechanisms. Skyrim is supported by the Nexus Mod Manager for instance as well as having native support for Steam Workshop.

I could mention other counter arguments as well but they have all been said many times over already both in this thread and elsewhere (and not just by me). Despite this, the same arguments against Steam get raised time and time again, with neither side conceding ground to the other.
Lenna (aka [SRK] The_Rabbit)

"Understanding is a three edged sword... your side, their side... and the Truth!" - J.J. Sheriden, Babylon 5 S4E6 T28:55

"May god stand between you and harm in all the dark places you must walk." - Ancient Egyption Proverb

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slimgrin
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Post by slimgrin » Sat, 10. Aug 13, 23:00

GCU Grey Area wrote:
Inverness wrote:Actually, Steam's offline mode will work indefinitely. You only need to login once to setup your game then you can stay in offline mode forever. Of course you will need to go online again if you want to be able to get updates.
Really wish it worked that way, unfortunately it doesn't. Keep my games machine in offline mode as much as possible, 99% of the time it's not even connected to the internet. Prefer to keep that machine offline as much as possible to avoid Steam's auto-updater which has caused me no end of problems.

However, every couple of weeks or so Steam pops up a message to say it can't launch a game because it's forgotten my login details & needs to connect to the Steam server. This is, of course, a bit of a lie from Steam - it connects automatically as soon as I plug in the network cable without any need for me to re-enter user name or password, so it clearly hasn't forgotten them.

Interestingly, Steam's competitors e.g. Origin & the other one (forget the name, had to install it for Far Cry 3) have been FAR less troublesome in this regard - they just lurk in the background & never hassle me about plugging in the network cable so they can talk to the internet. May be heresy for Steam enthusiasts but, if boxed copies of XR have to be linked to an online distributor for updates, think I'd prefer they were using one of the others. Steam has caused me far more problems than all of the rest combined.
I've experienced these exact same issues with Steam as well, or simply not letting me play when my internet suddenly went down. If I wasn't in offline mode already, no connection meant no games. Also, the auto updater was a major headache for TW2 players, as sometimes devs release incompatible patches and its best not to install them right away. But I'm sure a game as huge and complex as X: Rebirth won't have that problem..:P Hopefully Ego's Marriage to Steam will be short lived and we won't have to jump through hoops just to play a game we have leased from Steam...er, own.

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Sam L.R. Griffiths
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Post by Sam L.R. Griffiths » Sun, 11. Aug 13, 03:18

slimgrin wrote:...
No-one has claimed Steam was perfect, but the off-line mode is only one feature which is known to be problematic and it is one that could still be improved.

Unplanned internet outages are a pain but the occurrence of such events are probably not frequent enough (or long enough) in the main to justify abandoning Steam based on this current deficiency.

As it stands, the other similar platforms such as Origin, uPlay, and GFWL do not appear to be anywhere as near advanced in other areas such as support for end-user mods.

Not only that, but the so-called marriage to Steam is not necessarily a choice Egosoft have much of a say in (depends on the agreements with their publishers - e.g. Deepsilver)
Lenna (aka [SRK] The_Rabbit)

"Understanding is a three edged sword... your side, their side... and the Truth!" - J.J. Sheriden, Babylon 5 S4E6 T28:55

"May god stand between you and harm in all the dark places you must walk." - Ancient Egyption Proverb

"When eating an elephant take one bite at a time" - Creighton Abrams

Inverness
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Post by Inverness » Sun, 11. Aug 13, 04:20

GCU Grey Area wrote:
Inverness wrote:Actually, Steam's offline mode will work indefinitely. You only need to login once to setup your game then you can stay in offline mode forever. Of course you will need to go online again if you want to be able to get updates.
Really wish it worked that way, unfortunately it doesn't. Keep my games machine in offline mode as much as possible, 99% of the time it's not even connected to the internet. Prefer to keep that machine offline as much as possible to avoid Steam's auto-updater which has caused me no end of problems.

However, every couple of weeks or so Steam pops up a message to say it can't launch a game because it's forgotten my login details & needs to connect to the Steam server. This is, of course, a bit of a lie from Steam - it connects automatically as soon as I plug in the network cable without any need for me to re-enter user name or password, so it clearly hasn't forgotten them.
Valve says that offline mode is designed to be indefinite but admits that there can be bugs since the offline mode consist of many different parts.

If you don't report bugs like this they won't get fixed.

Ebany
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Post by Ebany » Sun, 11. Aug 13, 04:26

cw8 wrote:
Ebany wrote: That said, those stats just re-enforce my point. Faced with Steam, most people chose to by from other distributors or bought a physical copy because it doesn't require Steam to activate. In fact, the physical copy had DRM protection, only the GoG copy came DRM-Free. That's why I bought a physical and a GoG copy. Figures show it, most of us tried to avoid Steam!
Boxed copy of TW2 had its DRM removed shortly. And you could redeem the boxed key for a backup GOG version. I got the GOG version first then bought the boxed for the physical goodies. So I too have 2 copies.
Same, thought I bought the CE Boxed version first and later bought 2x copies of the GoG version.
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Ebany
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Post by Ebany » Sun, 11. Aug 13, 05:18

Roger L.S. Griffiths wrote:
Inverness wrote:The purpose of Steam isn't to be DRM. It's a useful service for both players and developers.
I have tried arguing this point before; However, many people who are anti-Steam do not accept it as a valid argument.

I certainly appreciate the position of Ebany but without knowing the exact details of the overcharging incident it is difficult to say if Ebany's view point is correct. Certainly, if it is correct then it would be pursuable in a small claims court if Ebany was so inclined.
I don't believe I'm correct as such, but I won't change my opinion no matter how good the argument. It was no "one" thing which makes me dislike Steam, its an accumulation of events over an extended period of time.

e.g. The Witcher 2 (just before its release) had its viewer rating changed and Steam suddenly decided they wouldn't release the "Mature" version so took it off their store site. They refused to give refunds to people who pre-purchased (changing their copies to the "child-safe" version) until enough people complained and threaten to get the Australian Consumer Affairs people involved.

e.g. Harebrained Studio's just launched their Shadowrun Returns game. This was my rpg back in the 80's & 90's so I helped out at Kickstarter. There is a forum full of Steam customers who couldn't download it, or received corrupted copies, Steam was still looking into it last I checked .... after I had completed the game.

Steam is like religion, for some its bought joy, inner peace and beauty. For the others it's bought horror, bloodshed and pain.

I am a simple creature but will not forgive Steam their authoritarian attitude. Some companies (Steam) believe they're to big to fail so start treating their customers like an Automated Cash Dispenser, there purely for the financial gain of Steam.

Now Steam is just the playground for others of a like mind, they're ushering in the DLC era, no longer content to make money off a product sale (and an expansion every year) now we have DLC crap flooding the market in an attempt to siphon more money out of consumers. Don't get me wrong, making money is great and all but like eating a person must know when enough is enough.

Again, I understand why a development would use Steam to market their product, I just don't understand why a developer would ONLY use Steam.

Oh, and Steam can ban/cancel you account at any-time so losing access to all your games wont just happen if Steam folds or if another company buys them out. Steam classifies themselves as Social Networking, much like Facebook.
He who bends himself a joy
Does the winged life destroy,
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Ebany
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Post by Ebany » Sun, 11. Aug 13, 05:19

cw8 wrote:
Roger L.S. Griffiths wrote:
Inverness wrote:The purpose of Steam isn't to be DRM. It's a useful service for both players and developers.
I have tried arguing this point before; However, many people who are anti-Steam do not accept it as a valid argument.
Compulsory clients are DRM, don't care if it's Steam, Origin. Uplay or GFWL. There are other useful services and stores, quite a number of them. Sell the game through Steam all you want, just provide the alternatives to buy the game outside of Steam, that's the keyword we're looking for, alternatives. Wasteland 2 is gonna be on almost every store, GOG, Steam, Desura, hell even Origin, and nobody and no backer on the forums is complaining about only getting the game on Steam.
+1
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Chris0132
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Post by Chris0132 » Sun, 11. Aug 13, 05:22

Complaining that a digital distribution platform doesn't work very well without an internet connection is like complaining that a cellular phone doesn't work very well without a network.

THAT'S WHAT IT'S FOR...

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BDK
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Post by BDK » Sun, 11. Aug 13, 05:23

Inverness wrote:The purpose of Steam isn't to be DRM.
I'm sorry but LOL.

Ebany
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Post by Ebany » Sun, 11. Aug 13, 05:25

TTD wrote:ok,ok...

So what would you non-Steamers say if Egosoft and it's publishers started their own server for downloading entire games , with similar mechanisms installed that are in Steam?
Fuk YEAH!!!!!!!!!! Sign me up.
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Chris0132
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Post by Chris0132 » Sun, 11. Aug 13, 05:28

BDK wrote:
Inverness wrote:The purpose of Steam isn't to be DRM.
I'm sorry but LOL.
It isn't, the point of steam is to sell crap to you. It's a distribution platform, and a much more efficient and practical one for many developers than traditional distribution methods.

Distributing games on CD with a nice manual is ruinously expensive. You have to pay to make all of those things, ship them around, get stores to stock them and advertise them, and then you have to figure out how to get updates and things to the people who bought them, and this for every country and localisation you plan to sell.

Digital distribution makes that much easier. You can sell anywhere as easily as anywhere else, as much as you want with the same initial investment, only paying for the copies you ship (in bandwidth), and everyone can get updates from the same place.

That is why steam is popular with developers, it makes life much easier for them. And as a customer you get some pretty excellent sales and, frankly, a much easier time with a diskless library than trying to figure out somewhere to put all the damned boxes and manuals and CD keys. It encourages developers to keep their games up to date (because they're still on sale 10 years down the line, unlike in stores) and it has a pretty good social element if you have anyone else that plays games, or just people who want to get in touch with you while you're playing games.

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BDK
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Post by BDK » Sun, 11. Aug 13, 05:32

It's DRM. Stop pretending it's anything else.

Chris0132
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Post by Chris0132 » Sun, 11. Aug 13, 05:33

BDK wrote:It's DRM. Stop pretending it's anything else.
If it was DRM it wouldn't be steam, it would be starforce, I'm not pretending anything.

Steam has a crapload of stuff it does OTHER than just DRM stuff.

It's insane to say 'none of the other stuff exists it's just DRM.'

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Post by A5PECT » Sun, 11. Aug 13, 05:35

BDK wrote:It's DRM. Stop pretending it's anything else.
I'lll concede that it's a form a DRM. But I won't concede that it isn't also a programming, distribution, advertising, and social networking platform that many gamers and game developers (Egosoft included) find very useful.

Just because you don't like those other elements doesn't mean no one else likes them, either. While I'm at it I'll point out that as a form of DRM, it's far less constricted than say, Starforce or TAGES were.
Admitting you have a problem is the first step in figuring out how to make it worse.

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Post by slimgrin » Sun, 11. Aug 13, 05:40

Chris0132 wrote:Complaining that a digital distribution platform doesn't work very well without an internet connection is like complaining that a cellular phone doesn't work very well without a network.

THAT'S WHAT IT'S FOR...
Wow...you really believe this? The only thing I want from them is a game, not a service, not their client, not their DRM.

GOG, Amazon and other distribution services agree. They just give me the game, no strings attached. It's a sad state of affairs when gamers think they actually need DRM and forced game clients..

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Post by Ebany » Sun, 11. Aug 13, 05:43

NUKLEAR-SLUG wrote:
slimgrin wrote:If Steam's only purpose was to provide a service, it wouldn't be mandatory. So yes, Steam is very much about DRM and exclusivity. The more software clients we get in the industry, the less choice gamers will have.
Steams primary purpose is to be a storefront.
Steam themselves say they are not a "digital store", they are "a digital distribution, digital rights management, multiplayer and communications platform developed by Valve Corporation"
slimgrin wrote:Steam's primary purpose is to be an exclusive storefront for games whenever they can.
"Social Networking" as Valve likes to say. This title allows them a unique amount of movement room, from a legal perspective, compared to a "merchant".
Inverness wrote:Actually, Steam's offline mode will work indefinitely. You only need to login once to setup your game then you can stay in offline mode forever.
Not unless they're changed something in the last couple of years. Off-line mode was a big issue for me back then as I worked in very remote areas with little or no internet capabilities.
slimgrin wrote:
TTD wrote:ok,ok...

So what would you non-Steamers say if Egosoft and it's publishers started their own server for downloading entire games , with similar mechanisms installed that are in Steam?
They don't need to. Make it available on all distributors and host mods on Nexus or any other site.
+1
Inverness wrote:Valve says that offline mode is designed to be indefinite but admits that there can be bugs since the offline mode consist of many different parts.

If you don't report bugs like this they won't get fixed.
Oh, I've reported the bugs alright ........ for years.
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Chris0132
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Post by Chris0132 » Sun, 11. Aug 13, 05:46

slimgrin wrote:
Chris0132 wrote:Complaining that a digital distribution platform doesn't work very well without an internet connection is like complaining that a cellular phone doesn't work very well without a network.

THAT'S WHAT IT'S FOR...
Wow...you really believe this? The only thing I want from them is a game, not a service, not their client, not their DRM.

GOG, Amazon and other distribution services agree. They just give me the game, no strings attached. It's a sad state of affairs when gamers think they actually need DRM and forced game clients..
Which makes steam the smartphone on contract to the go-phone of amazon.

If you use it a lot it becomes far more efficient and cost effective than the single-use version. GoG and amazon don't offer anything but the game, if you just want the game that's fine, steam tries to sell you on other things and it does a quite good job of it. You've got your steam workshop, community, screenshot uploader thingy, DLC support for everything you buy on it, quite a few nice 'if you bought our previous game here's a discount on our next game' offers, good sales, lots of stuff.

Saying you just want the basic option is fine, but saying steam is doing nothing but offering that plus DRM is really inaccurate. They seem to be doing more or less everything they can to find more ways to make the service attractive to people, which is a bit of a far cry from saying 'hey we're putting DRM on everything and you have to use it, no you don't get anything in return, go to hell', which is what we had before.

Ebany
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Post by Ebany » Sun, 11. Aug 13, 06:24

http://forum.egosoft.com/viewtopic.php?t=341342 GO VOTE

^^ New poll for those who wish to voice their opinion in the only proven way which shows results, numbers!

We can talk all day in this thread, but since it was created Thu Oct 06, 2011 5:35 pm, it is archaic. I will assume people will continue to discuss in this thread, so every now and then I'll bump this comment so others can access the new poll.
He who bends himself a joy
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Post by The_Mess » Sun, 11. Aug 13, 07:00

:roll:

This just in, but it's the publishers that put the DRM on steam games, as they could perfectly well publish the game on steam without the steam specific DRM attached. Which is what Paradox did with SotS II until gamespy PVP match making service died and was set up with steam. So moaning about steam as though they're to blame seems rather downright silly.

As for why developers like steam, it comes down to only having to put 1-3 patch version out (windows, mac linux), instead of how ever many distribution platforms and DRM versions there are, easy and fairly robust means of pushing patches to players, development build management and ease of sending out press preview/review copies. Not to forget either, but the basic DRM system steam uses prevents pre-launch piracy* and doesn't have a habit of eating peoples optical drives (hello starforce) or carries with it stupid install limits, driver clashes and doesn't work when the authentication servers are down due to accidental DDOS from players during launch.

And frankly, while the issues with steam vis internet connection issues and low data caps due to ****ty ISP's strike me as perfectly rational. But no matter which way I model it, the rest just strikes me as fairly irrational due to faulty costing of steam as a program and as a distribution and DRM system. Then again having depression has made me much more capable of weighing these sorts of things as empirically as possible *cough*.

___________________________________________
*unless a pre-launch review copy leaks of course...

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Post by Jumee » Sun, 11. Aug 13, 07:05

Ebany wrote:Not unless they're changed something in the last couple of years. Off-line mode was a big issue for me back then as I worked in very remote areas with little or no internet capabilities
I think they have, problems with off-line mode has become a lot less frequent for me (some other posters have reported that too - we also had a poster run steam in perpetual offline mode (he dislikes it) and he reported success)
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