Gas clouds / nebula effects in Rebirth?

BGrey · Post by **BGrey** » Tue, 14. May 13, 03:26

I always liked the nebula in freespace 2, it was always an epic experience with every shadow freaking. Then finally you see a shadow that actually is a capital ship, made clear when the giant beam cannon fires past you. X3 on the other hand just kind of had me squinting.

Zloth · Post by **Zloth** » Tue, 14. May 13, 03:52

Nebula could be MIGHTY cool if they threw physics into it. A bowshock in front of and beside your ship (kinda like a boat wake but in 3D), a clear area in the back, have the particles expand outward if you heat them up with laser weapons.... Maybe you could even have the particles all headed away from whatever star tossed them out? Then space stations could have neat effects, too.

elexis · Post by **elexis** » Tue, 14. May 13, 17:29

If we were to do dynamic volumetric clouds then we would be looking at either really bad quality or 1frame/hour speeds.

Freelancer did have nice nebulas, although from what I can tell* it made use of the same tech as the X3 nebulas, and that the X3 nebulas are actually more detailed, with the main issue being an unfortunate design choice regarding object visibility. I agree that the Freelancer 2 nebulas did look awesome, although microsoft stabbed that one in the heart before we got much info (or a game).

Also remember that the is nothing remotely realistic about nebulas. Real nebulas are hundreds of stars if not galaxies wide and are made up of such low density particles that if you were inside a nebula would wouldn't even visually notice it.

On the other hand, eye candy!

*I am currently capped out on internet and haven't personally played freelancer, so I have had limited ability to research this

Post by **Nanook** » Tue, 14. May 13, 19:23

Zloth wrote:Nebula could be MIGHTY cool if they threw physics into it....

That would be 'funsics', not physics. In the real world, there's no such thing as these so-called nebulae. In the real world, if you were in one, you'd have to have very sensitive instruments to detect the particles in it. You certainly couldn't see it as 'fog'. Real nebulae are hundreds and thousands of lightyears across, and the only reason you see them as gas clouds is because they're a relatively small arc in the sky. If you were actually in one, all you might see is a coloring of the sky. So sorry, no bowshocks and no hiding in it either.

I hate the game nebulae. They're so unspacelike.

g1i1ch · Post by **g1i1ch** » Tue, 14. May 13, 19:35

That would be 'funsics', not physics. In the real world, there's no such thing as these so-called nebulae. In the real world, if you were in one, you'd have to have very sensitive instruments to detect the particles in it. You certainly couldn't see it as 'fog'. Real nebulae are hundreds and thousands of lightyears across, and the only reason you see them as gas clouds is because they're a relatively small arc in the sky. If you were actually in one, all you might see is a coloring of the sky. So sorry, no bowshocks and no hiding in it either.

I hate the game nebulae. They're so unspacelike. Evil or Very Mad

Yeah but it's even worse. Telescopes use a long exposure technique and only accept certain wavelengths of light at a time. Many that the human eye can't see. Also worse, 99.99% of all nebula photos are actually colored to make them look better. They select certain wavelengths of light and pick a color to represent it. So crazily colored nebula don't really exist. Lastly nearly all nebulae are too dim for the human eye to see. The long exposure allows scientists to see what's actually too dark. If you came across a nebula in real space all you would see is blackness covering stars or really dark grey.

It actually saddens me because I thought space actually looked like this at some places. This fantasy space is featured in any space show, movie, or game. Even Battlestar Galactica, Star Trek, Homeworld, and Eve Online. But none of it is real... I honestly don't want colorful nebulae, they're cool, but they perpetuate a false fantasy image of space that doesn't actually exist.

greypanther · Post by **greypanther** » Tue, 14. May 13, 22:05

Totaly agree with you Nanook!

@g1i1ch: true, but we can still see some of the aspects of nebulae, at a very great distance, with just the simplest of optics; no fiddling with it; no long exposure. Though you are certainly right about the colour. The objects above are not all colourless however.

I will not play Rebirth until some of the faults I see already are modded out. It will drive me crazy otherwise. ( Or should that be crazier?

)

Night Nord · Post by **Night Nord** » Tue, 14. May 13, 22:36

Well, you may probably fly into some dust-field/gas-field from the forming planet and it will look like nebulas described. But I'm not sure you'll be able to fly out of there though =)

amtie · Post by **amtie** » Tue, 14. May 13, 23:56

g1i1ch and greypanther, you do realise this is a space sim with aliens, shields, jump gates and what-not? This is a space sim that isn't aiming to be hard sci-fi. Hence the nebulae.

A hard sci-fi space sim will be like KSP but with guns (anyone read Through struggle, the Stars by John Lumpkin or something?).

greypanther · Post by **greypanther** » Wed, 15. May 13, 00:32

Hardly amtie, neither heard of him or his book.

However I find the whole idea of the " fog " , just bloody annoying, regardless of the science, or facts or anything else. Annoying. Silly to the point of being a 12 year old's idea about space. If anything like in TC/AP, even remotely, I will not buy until a modder removes it. I find it that annoying. Understand better now?

As well as the fog, there is a similar issue with the stupid cockpit as demonstrated on the released vids. I hates it. Just my opinion you understand, again regardless of any science etc.

isn't aiming to be hard sci-fi. Hence the nebulae.

Its a very soft sci fi indeed.

g1i1ch · Post by **g1i1ch** » Wed, 15. May 13, 00:44

g1i1ch and greypanther, you do realise this is a space sim with aliens, shields, jump gates and what-not? This is a space sim that isn't aiming to be hard sci-fi. Hence the nebulae.

A hard sci-fi space sim will be like KSP but with guns (anyone read Through struggle, the Stars by John Lumpkin or something?).

Well I'm not calling out the devs or anything. The game looks pretty good regardless and this is definitely not going to keep me from buying it.

I realize this is just a game. What I'm lamenting really is that we lack a good option for a realistic visual experience of space and that it adds fuel to the fire of this false image of space. I just found out about this a few weeks ago. I really did think there were really colorful places in space and it was a bit depressing to find out. I just find it a bit upsetting that out of all the media that takes place in space little to none portray how it looks accurately. It seems like Gravity might do it realistically at least. It's really overused if you think about it, everyone does it.

After realizing the reality of it I'm wondering why no one does it. Making a real dark space with only slight colors and huge dark nebula fog that you can get lost in would make a pretty cool cold ominous experience. In a X universe game that would be pretty cool. It would have an ancient and alone feeling that chills.

[spell check screw up]

greypanther · Post by **greypanther** » Wed, 15. May 13, 00:51

Indeed.
Just to add, I am in no way attacking anyone, everyone is entitled to their opinion. I too just wish for some things in the game to be optional, from the start before a modder gets involved. Then they could please the great majority.

amtie · Post by **amtie** » Wed, 15. May 13, 01:28

greypanther wrote:Hardly amtie, neither heard of him or his book.

http://www.amazon.co.uk/Through-Struggl ... +the+stars

If you're interested in hard sci-fi and KSP, you'll like this.

g1i1ch wrote:After realizing the reality of it I'm wondering why no one does it. Making a real dark space with only slight colors and huge dark nebula fog that you can get lost in would make a pretty cool cold ominous experience. In a X universe game that would be pretty cool. It would have an ancient and alone feeling that chills.

Because such a game wouldn't be fun enough to attract enough buyers to possibly make a profit. We've got funsies sci-fi here at Egosoft and the genre the games cater for are already considered to be niches.

If you're interested in real space facts etc, read ALL of this site: http://www.projectrho.com/public_html/rocket/index.php Mouse over the Topic List (top right) to choose from many different topics you may find of interest.

Zloth · Post by **Zloth** » Wed, 15. May 13, 03:13

Of course it isn't realistic! That'd be dull beyond belief. Move yourself 500 light years away and the result is... those random dots moved around a bit! Well... some of them. Wee haw. A new sun - which is pretty much the same as the last one but a bit smaller and a different color. Or maybe there's two now. The only interesting stuff would happen when you got close enough to a planet to make out the features.

I suppose we could call it the outer atmosphere of a big gas giant. Then we could justify Mutara-nebula style lightning!

P.S. When a nebula starts out, it's the expanding shell of a star. You could see it just fine as it all goes flying by! And isn't there a supernova that's rather central to this story? How good are our shields in this game, I wonder?

elexis · Post by **elexis** » Wed, 15. May 13, 03:55

Well either you are in the system with the supernova, and you are dead. Or you are in a different system and you won't notice any effects thanks to the exponential expansion reducing the shell to nothing.

greypanther · Post by **greypanther** » Wed, 15. May 13, 14:41

Amtie et el, Please try to understand the following sentance. Because you seem to be missing the point still!

I DO NOT LIKE THE EFFECT OF EITHER THE FOG OR THE COCKPIT, THEY ARE TO ME VERY, VERY ANNOYING!

Nothing to do with hard or soft sci fi, just annoying nonsence, IN MY OPIION! Whats more I am not the only one with this opinion. I really do not care if I am in a minority or not. I will not play a game that I know is going to annoy me. Simples.

Underdstand now?

Edited now three times in a vain attempt to avoid offence.

BGrey · Post by **BGrey** » Wed, 15. May 13, 18:38

So did you not play the other X games?

greypanther · Post by **greypanther** » Wed, 15. May 13, 19:59

Yes from X2. ( Though skipped Reunion. )
The first and for a long time the only, mod I downloaded was the no fog mod. ( There are several versions. ) I then added the No Tubes mod to remove another annoying thing from X3.
I never did finish X2, mainly I suspect because of the annoying cockpit. ( In fact hardly put any hours at all into it. )

The problem now is I rarely get more than an hour, two at the most to play, so I have perhaps got more picky.

theeclownbroze · Post by **theeclownbroze** » Wed, 15. May 13, 22:32

Noooooooo i love the volumetric nebulas in rebirth they look so epic! I dont care about realism, thats what real life is for!. Dam i am going to kill my eyes when this game comes out!

Night Nord · Post by **Night Nord** » Wed, 15. May 13, 22:48

Actually, "physics" nebulas are easy to make, cause it's just a surface effect - you may do it with shader + particles effect of "nose wave", which is also quite cheap if LODed away for far ships and has no collision detection.

"Volumetric" nebulas also don't need to be "particles" or in either way simulated - it's just a fog, which is very easy and cheap on modern GPUs. In the previous X-series it just didn't affect/overlap the skybox for some reason.

From perspective of realim - well, yes, it has nothing common with reality (if you are moving though something so thick that it creates a "fog", then you are probably not in vacuum anymore), but probably this is the least concern in game with weirdly shaped submarines raiding on space rails.

g1i1ch · Post by **g1i1ch** » Thu, 16. May 13, 08:00

Amtie isn't being helpful at all. No offense meant Amtie, sincerely.

But Amtie, that's your opinion. This just happens to be mine and greypanther's opinion. To me it would be fun and exciting to have a more realistic depiction of space. But that's just me. You may think it wouldn't be fun and that's fine. It's not as if the egosoft will read my post and completely remove everything.

A bit why I have this opinion. I make games. And I've played many many games. So many in fact that 90% of everything is really boring and generic now. Not to mention that I see behind everything and know how just about everything is done.

Fantasy space is overdone. I'm tired of it and I'm tired of seeing it in games I play. As a developer it's also too easy a design now. Any designer can generate nebula for concept art quickly. Everyone already knows how it'll work and feel. There's no challenge to it.

Try taking a realistic depiction of space without all the pizazz and making that fun to play. Now there's a challenge. How would you do it? Atmosphere probably. Darkness. Maybe cultivating a feeling of being on the edge of adventure and a cold death trapped in a ship that has now become your coffin drifting in space for eternity. Then I would focus on the simple rugged beauty of space for how it is. A cold luminous, alien, and dark hell for a human that is strikingly beautiful at the same time. That would be a design I'd like to see. Maybe I could tackle that as a project someday.

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Gas clouds / nebula effects in Rebirth?