Remind me, why we can't have bottom turrets on M-size ship again?

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mr.WHO
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Remind me, why we can't have bottom turrets on M-size ship again?

Post by mr.WHO » Fri, 30. Jul 21, 14:01

I was watching this on YT:
https://youtu.be/3l2XyRdnbQk?t=125

Since there is already turret folding animation anyway, why not to make turret version that fold deeper, so that landed ship turret doesn't clip through landing pad?

Possibly also the condition that as long as landing gear is down, the turret will not activate - e.g. to prevent it from activation when in combat on landing pad.

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Re: Remind me, why we can't have bottom turrets on M-size ship again?

Post by dtpsprt » Fri, 30. Jul 21, 21:02

Actually there is one (and only one) M class ship that has one bottom turret and that is the Teladi Osprey.

That said the Gunships, having their turrets on the sides of their slim "bodies", have absolutely no problem to shoot "down" even though at a distance.

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Re: Remind me, why we can't have bottom turrets on M-size ship again?

Post by Slashman » Fri, 30. Jul 21, 21:50

dtpsprt wrote:
Fri, 30. Jul 21, 21:02
Actually there is one (and only one) M class ship that has one bottom turret and that is the Teladi Osprey.

That said the Gunships, having their turrets on the sides of their slim "bodies", have absolutely no problem to shoot "down" even though at a distance.
I don't think it does. I fly a Teladi Osprey and it has two side turrets, and two top turrets. On the bottom is a shield generator.
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Re: Remind me, why we can't have bottom turrets on M-size ship again?

Post by dtpsprt » Sat, 31. Jul 21, 00:02

Slashman wrote:
Fri, 30. Jul 21, 21:50
I don't think it does. I fly a Teladi Osprey and it has two side turrets, and two top turrets. On the bottom is a shield generator.
I stand corrected... then again the side turrets follow the line of the side turrets of the gunboats, so it has some coverage from the bottom...

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Re: Remind me, why we can't have bottom turrets on M-size ship again?

Post by LameFox » Sun, 1. Aug 21, 07:49

I assumed the top-heavy turret layouts were just in keeping with the game's WWII in space gameplay. Pretty sure I have seen modded ships pull off a bottom turret that doesn't clip when landed?
***modified***

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Re: Remind me, why we can't have bottom turrets on M-size ship again?

Post by mr.WHO » Sun, 1. Aug 21, 11:42

LameFox wrote:
Sun, 1. Aug 21, 07:49
I assumed the top-heavy turret layouts were just in keeping with the game's WWII in space gameplay. Pretty sure I have seen modded ships pull off a bottom turret that doesn't clip when landed?
The only remotely "bottom" turret is front-bottom turret on Cerberus, but it's not "belly", but rather "chin" which is still far away from landing floor.

The Osprey in my OP posted video has turret directly placed on belly, that fold in when not used and it doesn't obscure the landing - that's exactly what we would need for X4 M-size ships to have even more turrets (belly is huge area).
This would even possibly allow to bring back turrets on S-size ships.

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Re: Remind me, why we can't have bottom turrets on M-size ship again?

Post by Shuulo » Sun, 1. Aug 21, 13:43

There is no problem from game engine perspective with bottom turrets from what I see, ships in SW mod have quite a lot of those.
This seems to be a self-imposed limitation by Ego devs, maybe they have some reason though, whould be nice to hear.

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Re: Remind me, why we can't have bottom turrets on M-size ship again?

Post by mr.WHO » Sun, 1. Aug 21, 13:47

I hope Egosoft become more bold with next DLCs - like frigates with more than 4 turrets.

I recall in Split DLC, Egosoft left Split Viper leftover, that was suppose to have 6 turrets, but didn't looked good, so they scrapped it.
Then in Terran DLC we have Jian that house 6 turrets just fine.


I think there is huge room for improvement for later DLCs and M-ship "belly" is someting worth improving.

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Re: Remind me, why we can't have bottom turrets on M-size ship again?

Post by Malchar » Mon, 2. Aug 21, 04:39

As far as I know it exists at least a corvette with a bottom turret ; it is the class P.

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Re: Remind me, why we can't have bottom turrets on M-size ship again?

Post by mr.WHO » Mon, 2. Aug 21, 07:42

Malchar wrote:
Mon, 2. Aug 21, 04:39
As far as I know it exists at least a corvette with a bottom turret ; it is the class P.
P and other Xenon S/M doesn't have to land anywhere (That's probably a reason why Xenon cpaships doesn't have landing pads).

Xenon S, that have to land to Xenon station doesn't have bottom turret.

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Re: Remind me, why we can't have bottom turrets on M-size ship again?

Post by jlehtone » Mon, 2. Aug 21, 08:36

mr.WHO wrote:
Mon, 2. Aug 21, 07:42
P and other Xenon S/M doesn't have to land anywhere
How do they launch from Wharf?
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Re: Remind me, why we can't have bottom turrets on M-size ship again?

Post by mr.WHO » Mon, 2. Aug 21, 09:18

jlehtone wrote:
Mon, 2. Aug 21, 08:36
mr.WHO wrote:
Mon, 2. Aug 21, 07:42
P and other Xenon S/M doesn't have to land anywhere
How do they launch from Wharf?
Launch tubes? I never seen them launching IS and this in not a problem when launching OOS.

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Re: Remind me, why we can't have bottom turrets on M-size ship again?

Post by Axeface » Mon, 2. Aug 21, 13:10

It would be really nice if some code was created to solve any issues with bottom mounted turrets. Its a pretty massive noose around the ship-designs neck.
External docking clamps too please.

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Re: Remind me, why we can't have bottom turrets on M-size ship again?

Post by af_2017 » Mon, 2. Aug 21, 14:24

I guess some problems begin when M ship is docked with turrets in "Attack All Enemies" with the carrier is in enemy territory. It will just shoot at own carrier.
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Re: Remind me, why we can't have bottom turrets on M-size ship again?

Post by jlehtone » Mon, 2. Aug 21, 16:30

af_2017 wrote:
Mon, 2. Aug 21, 14:24
I guess some problems begin when M ship is docked with turrets in "Attack All Enemies" with the carrier is in enemy territory. It will just shoot at own carrier.
Obviously, the turret should be in "Disabled" state while the ship is docked. However, then the ship should store the state of its turrets so that it can restore the state after undock.
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Re: Remind me, why we can't have bottom turrets on M-size ship again?

Post by Berserk Knight » Mon, 2. Aug 21, 18:45

jlehtone wrote:
Mon, 2. Aug 21, 08:36
mr.WHO wrote:
Mon, 2. Aug 21, 07:42
P and other Xenon S/M doesn't have to land anywhere
How do they launch from Wharf?
Xenon Wharf uses the exact same S/M building module as the Commonwealth.
They just float slightly above the floor.

mr.WHO wrote:
Mon, 2. Aug 21, 09:18
Launch tubes? I never seen them launching IS and this in not a problem when launching OOS.
As someone who's been living with the Xenon for quite some time, I've seen them both launch from AND dock at launch tubes.
Xenon use a variant that allows ships to use them to dock.
Which, the AI scripts don't have a way to distinguish launch tubes from landing pads other than the "fact" that you can't land at launch tubes, so these Xenon variant launch tubes don't count as launch tubes to the game's logic.


In any case, M size ships use access ramps, so the bottom of the ship doesn't even have to be very close to the floor.
Have the landing gears extend further to put the ship's main hull up a higher, give the access ramps extra length through retractable parts or maybe just have them at a steeper angle so they can cover the extra height, and you'd even have enough space for turrets below the Terran Katana that's currently almost flush with the floor.
It's just Egosoft's design decision to have them this way.

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Re: Remind me, why we can't have bottom turrets on M-size ship again?

Post by Dreez » Wed, 4. Aug 21, 01:52

Personally i think M-sized ships are a bit of a joke and has no real use. They're made of paper and a single fighter can easily kill an M-ship.
It's been debated before, whether or not M-sized ships were suppose to be the middle between destroyers and fighters but got left
behind in the development.

In X3, there was a superb ladder of shipsizes. M3 > M6 > M7 > M2 > M0. So in X4 we're missing 2 steps which makes a huge differense.
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Re: Remind me, why we can't have bottom turrets on M-size ship again?

Post by Slashman » Wed, 4. Aug 21, 03:13

Dreez wrote:
Wed, 4. Aug 21, 01:52
Personally i think M-sized ships are a bit of a joke and has no real use. They're made of paper and a single fighter can easily kill an M-ship.
It's been debated before, whether or not M-sized ships were suppose to be the middle between destroyers and fighters but got left
behind in the development.

In X3, there was a superb ladder of shipsizes. M3 > M6 > M7 > M2 > M0. So in X4 we're missing 2 steps which makes a huge differense.
I've yet to see a single fighter kill my Teladi Osprey. I mean if I sit there and don't turn on the turrets maybe.
If you want a different perspective, stand on your head.

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Re: Remind me, why we can't have bottom turrets on M-size ship again?

Post by jlehtone » Wed, 4. Aug 21, 09:20

Dreez wrote:
Wed, 4. Aug 21, 01:52
Personally i think M-sized ships are a bit of a joke and has no real use. They're made of paper and a single fighter can easily kill an M-ship.
There are two types of ships: the ship flown by player and everything else. Quite different types.

AI-piloted military M-size ... yes, it is not a top dog, although Katanas are the only thing in TER fleet that can annoy an Asgard. M-size flown by player is usually an entirely different beast.

Take a Frigate. Let it carry an S-size. That combo can do most of generic missions.
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Re: Remind me, why we can't have bottom turrets on M-size ship again?

Post by Slashman » Wed, 4. Aug 21, 15:19

Basically it matters how you arm the frigate and to a lesser extent the pilot. But even when I'm not piloting it myself...I haven't seen a SINGLE fighter come close to taking down my frigate. I mean it has drones and laser towers and is armed with two flak turrets.

I think that statement is very hyperbolic.
If you want a different perspective, stand on your head.

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