[FEEDBACK]New Paranid Carrier can only carry 16 fighters? - WAI.

[Ragnos28]

Being able to outrun fights you can't win is not without its uses and has seriously lacked in this game since the transition to travel drives. Alone, this looks like it will be a good carrier for the earlier part of a playthrough, to maintain a squad of fighters before replacements become trivial and when filling up something like a Tokyo or Colossus is still an expensive endeavour. Later I suppose you could replace it if you want to use single ships, or build more of it, since it does not really matter a great deal once you have the resources.

My only concern is that I have seen carrier AI struggle with being able to move while fighters are coming in to land. Not sure if that has improved since then, as in my current playthrough I am using Tokyos which are barely mobile at the best of times.

If being able to outrun fights that you can't win is what you are after, then the new Odyseuss would be better suited for that task. To be used like a more resiliant fast replacement for a Rattlesnake, for engine sniping of Xenon K and I.
Now, if the Zeus E would become a pocket carrier, a "destroyer" that can rapidly deploy fighters...for that the frame should be decreased, more L turrets added, not make it wider that the old Zeus, making it an even biger target.

[LameFox]

If being able to outrun fights that you can't win is what you are after, then the new Odyseuss would be better suited for that task. To be used like a more resiliant fast replacement for a Rattlesnake, for engine sniping of Xenon K and I.
Now, if the Zeus E would become a pocket carrier, a "destroyer" that can rapidly deploy fighters...for that the frame should be decreased, more L turrets added, not make it wider that the old Zeus, making it an even biger target.

Admittedly from a purely functional standpoint I don't really need carriers at all in this game. However if the player does want to use fighters, which we can assume some will in a sandbox game, there's been a conspicuous absence of lighter carriers for some time now. You can put a lot of fighters in something like a destroyer, but it can't repair them, so you are left with either doing it manually or flying back and forth to wharfs or EQ docks.

As for the size, I think that matters more to something like a destroyer which is trading shots with another capital ship. I would anticipate something like this to primarily engage the S and M ships that can keep up with it in standard flight. If I were using it in the way I described here as service to a small personal fleet, I would cripple L and XL ships myself in something smaller.

[Ragnos28]

Admittedly from a purely functional standpoint I don't really need carriers at all in this game.

Well...I need carriers, so I can do this: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ccNBsTc8hzo&t=21s
Also I would pay good money to see what a light carrier can do in that combat scenario...then maybe I will be convinced about their utility Until them I will stick to the "standard" carriers, thank you

[LameFox]

Admittedly from a purely functional standpoint I don't really need carriers at all in this game.

Well...I need carriers, so I can do this: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ccNBsTc8hzo&t=21s
Also I would pay good money to see what a light carrier can do in that combat scenario...then maybe I will be convinced about their utility Until them I will stick to the "standard" carriers, thank you

Ok? This does not have to be one of them. If they want to add a ship for every possible role to each race at some point that's fine by me.

[flywlyx]

Yeah, it's fast, unnecessarily so for a carrier. Really not sure what to do with it. Too fast to use in a conventional fleet (given that it's so much faster than any version of Odysseus) & a fleet consisting of just a carrier & a bunch of fighters is a fleet distinctly lacking in punch. May end up having to install the basic Minuteman mod on it's engines - the increase in boost is largely irrelevant but it would at least chop 25-30% off the travel speed (so destroyers could keep up). Frankly would vastly prefer higher fighter capacity than excessively fast engines I'll likely need to nerf to get anything resembling fleet cohesion.

Pretty good fit to work with rattlesnakes and assemble a rapid response fleet.
Rattlesnake could provide the big gun while Zeus E focuses on AA.
We lack this kind of carrier in our fleet.
But I agree this should not be the only carrier for PAR, they should have a normal carrier to work with Ody.

[flywlyx]

Well...I need carriers, so I can do this: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ccNBsTc8hzo&t=21s
Also I would pay good money to see what a light carrier can do in that combat scenario...then maybe I will be convinced about their utility Until them I will stick to the "standard" carriers, thank you

No carrier could catch up with Rattlesnake at the moment, a rapid response fleet could terminate a Xenon invasion in no time.

[Raptor34]

do you guys even know how fast the new E-Carrier is in travel? it go's a whooping 6000 in travel mode with speed of 290m/s normal speed

Unmoded?
So it's both bigger and way faster?
That's pretty odd.
Actually off memory that's pretty damned fast. How fast is a Rattlesnake again? Just taking a quick look at Roguey's it seems that with Split All around engines its 233 with a third of that travel speed.
I mean it's nice and all, but it seems pretty damned weird.

So since we aren't getting a nerf to other ships, could we get a buff at least? I can't remember if that messes with save game compatibility or it's something else.

If being able to outrun fights that you can't win is what you are after, then the new Odyseuss would be better suited for that task. To be used like a more resiliant fast replacement for a Rattlesnake, for engine sniping of Xenon K and I.
Now, if the Zeus E would become a pocket carrier, a "destroyer" that can rapidly deploy fighters...for that the frame should be decreased, more L turrets added, not make it wider that the old Zeus, making it an even biger target.

Admittedly from a purely functional standpoint I don't really need carriers at all in this game. However if the player does want to use fighters, which we can assume some will in a sandbox game, there's been a conspicuous absence of lighter carriers for some time now. You can put a lot of fighters in something like a destroyer, but it can't repair them, so you are left with either doing it manually or flying back and forth to wharfs or EQ docks.

As for the size, I think that matters more to something like a destroyer which is trading shots with another capital ship. I would anticipate something like this to primarily engage the S and M ships that can keep up with it in standard flight. If I were using it in the way I described here as service to a small personal fleet, I would cripple L and XL ships myself in something smaller.

Destroyers also cannot actually make use of their S capacity anyway.
Like who here seriously sits around slowly launching all 40 of their fighters? It's only effective purpose is to garage your personal S ships as you're puttering around the universe.

As for size, it's more a QoL thing. The stats so far are pretty good for a personal ship, it's just way too fat imo for those stats. If the other guy is correct about those stats.

Yeah, it's fast, unnecessarily so for a carrier. Really not sure what to do with it. Too fast to use in a conventional fleet (given that it's so much faster than any version of Odysseus) & a fleet consisting of just a carrier & a bunch of fighters is a fleet distinctly lacking in punch. May end up having to install the basic Minuteman mod on it's engines - the increase in boost is largely irrelevant but it would at least chop 25-30% off the travel speed (so destroyers could keep up). Frankly would vastly prefer higher fighter capacity than excessively fast engines I'll likely need to nerf to get anything resembling fleet cohesion.

Pretty good fit to work with rattlesnakes and assemble a rapid response fleet.
Rattlesnake could provide the big gun while Zeus E focuses on AA.
We lack this kind of carrier in our fleet.
But I agree this should not be the only carrier for PAR, they should have a normal carrier to work with Ody.

The other carrier is still around.

But honestly, I still want a L-sized carrier, something small and sweet to fly around in and store my ships.
Otoh now that the Odysseus E looks a whole lot sexier I guess it'll do. It does have the M dock. What's it's capacity anyway?

[Ragnos28]

Admittedly from a purely functional standpoint I don't really need carriers at all in this game.

Well...I need carriers, so I can do this: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ccNBsTc8hzo&t=21s
Also I would pay good money to see what a light carrier can do in that combat scenario...then maybe I will be convinced about their utility Until them I will stick to the "standard" carriers, thank you

Ok? This does not have to be one of them. If they want to add a ship for every possible role to each race at some point that's fine by me.

The question is...what to do with a pocket carrier? The only thing I could kill with that huge thing (Zeus E a light carrier...that is huge? ) is maybe kill 10 xenon M or some Kha'ak, for everything else one would need a proper carrier. I see a xenon K..run screaming like a little girl...a xenon branch 9 I ?...yeah, right.

And from where I'm standing, there is nothing a light carrier can achieve that my Raptor can't (from a tactical point of view). What? I enter a sector and there are some Kha'ak 250 km away? Select a number of fighters...let's say 16...atack target in range...there...my Raptor is now a light carrier The diference being, if I encounter a Xenon I + 4 Xenon K friends + 30 xenon M...I don't have to call anyone maybe the salvage ship when 5.00 drop

So I need a light carrier for ...........................? (please fill in the dotted line)

[Ragnos28]

No carrier could catch up with Rattlesnake at the moment, a rapid response fleet could terminate a Xenon invasion in no time.

Can you give me an example of the composition of that...rapid response fleet? I would like to build it in my game so I can watch it go splat I mean...testing it

Edit: And to be fair, I would not test that fleet to see if it can depopulate the most heavily defended xenon sector in my game in under 20 minutes, more like this scenario: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aOSXAhjB8pA&t=16s

[Ragnos28]

But honestly, I still want a L-sized carrier, something small and sweet to fly around in and store my ships.

You have the Behemoth for that Is small and sweet and you can store your ships ...well, as long as they are S ships

[abisha1980]

do you guys even know how fast the new E-Carrier is in travel? it go's a whooping 6000 in travel mode with speed of 290m/s normal speed

Unmoded?
So it's both bigger and way faster?
That's pretty odd.
Actually off memory that's pretty damned fast. How fast is a Rattlesnake again? Just taking a quick look at Roguey's it seems that with Split All around engines its 233 with a third of that travel speed.
I mean it's nice and all, but it seems pretty damned weird.

So since we aren't getting a nerf to other ships, could we get a buff at least? I can't remember if that messes with save game compatibility or it's something else.

If being able to outrun fights that you can't win is what you are after, then the new Odyseuss would be better suited for that task. To be used like a more resiliant fast replacement for a Rattlesnake, for engine sniping of Xenon K and I.
Now, if the Zeus E would become a pocket carrier, a "destroyer" that can rapidly deploy fighters...for that the frame should be decreased, more L turrets added, not make it wider that the old Zeus, making it an even biger target.

Admittedly from a purely functional standpoint I don't really need carriers at all in this game. However if the player does want to use fighters, which we can assume some will in a sandbox game, there's been a conspicuous absence of lighter carriers for some time now. You can put a lot of fighters in something like a destroyer, but it can't repair them, so you are left with either doing it manually or flying back and forth to wharfs or EQ docks.

As for the size, I think that matters more to something like a destroyer which is trading shots with another capital ship. I would anticipate something like this to primarily engage the S and M ships that can keep up with it in standard flight. If I were using it in the way I described here as service to a small personal fleet, I would cripple L and XL ships myself in something smaller.

Destroyers also cannot actually make use of their S capacity anyway.
Like who here seriously sits around slowly launching all 40 of their fighters? It's only effective purpose is to garage your personal S ships as you're puttering around the universe.

As for size, it's more a QoL thing. The stats so far are pretty good for a personal ship, it's just way too fat imo for those stats. If the other guy is correct about those stats.

Yeah, it's fast, unnecessarily so for a carrier. Really not sure what to do with it. Too fast to use in a conventional fleet (given that it's so much faster than any version of Odysseus) & a fleet consisting of just a carrier & a bunch of fighters is a fleet distinctly lacking in punch. May end up having to install the basic Minuteman mod on it's engines - the increase in boost is largely irrelevant but it would at least chop 25-30% off the travel speed (so destroyers could keep up). Frankly would vastly prefer higher fighter capacity than excessively fast engines I'll likely need to nerf to get anything resembling fleet cohesion.

Pretty good fit to work with rattlesnakes and assemble a rapid response fleet.
Rattlesnake could provide the big gun while Zeus E focuses on AA.
We lack this kind of carrier in our fleet.
But I agree this should not be the only carrier for PAR, they should have a normal carrier to work with Ody.

The other carrier is still around.

But honestly, I still want a L-sized carrier, something small and sweet to fly around in and store my ships.
Otoh now that the Odysseus E looks a whole lot sexier I guess it'll do. It does have the M dock. What's it's capacity anyway?

6100 to be accurate (unmodded) can't recall what drive think i used a combat MK3 so it's really fast. the fastest shout ship go's 8000

[LameFox]

The question is...what to do with a pocket carrier? The only thing I could kill with that huge thing (Zeus E a light carrier...that is huge? ) is maybe kill 10 xenon M or some Kha'ak, for everything else one would need a proper carrier. I see a xenon K..run screaming like a little girl...a xenon branch 9 I ?...yeah, right.

And from where I'm standing, there is nothing a light carrier can achieve that my Raptor can't (from a tactical point of view). What? I enter a sector and there are some Kha'ak 250 km away? Select a number of fighters...let's say 16...atack target in range...there...my Raptor is now a light carrier The diference being, if I encounter a Xenon I + 4 Xenon K friends + 30 xenon M...I don't have to call anyone maybe the salvage ship when 5.00 drop

So I need a light carrier for ...........................? (please fill in the dotted line)

I don't really get what your complaint is here. There are lots of ships in this game that I don't personally use—like one that is half battleship, half carrier, that tanks with its hull instead of its shield—but that doesn't mean I want them all rebalanced to suit roles I do use. It is a sandbox game, people do different things. Egosoft has been asked since release to rebalance ships to make them more distinct from each other, and now we are at last getting some of that. Naturally this means they will no longer be totally interchangeable, and that some of them may not suit everyone's playstyle.

[Ragnos28]

The question is...what to do with a pocket carrier? The only thing I could kill with that huge thing (Zeus E a light carrier...that is huge? ) is maybe kill 10 xenon M or some Kha'ak, for everything else one would need a proper carrier. I see a xenon K..run screaming like a little girl...a xenon branch 9 I ?...yeah, right.

And from where I'm standing, there is nothing a light carrier can achieve that my Raptor can't (from a tactical point of view). What? I enter a sector and there are some Kha'ak 250 km away? Select a number of fighters...let's say 16...atack target in range...there...my Raptor is now a light carrier The diference being, if I encounter a Xenon I + 4 Xenon K friends + 30 xenon M...I don't have to call anyone maybe the salvage ship when 5.00 drop

So I need a light carrier for ...........................? (please fill in the dotted line)

I don't really get what your complaint is here. There are lots of ships in this game that I don't personally use—like one that is half battleship, half carrier, that tanks with its hull instead of its shield—but that doesn't mean I want them all rebalanced to suit roles I do use. It is a sandbox game, people do different things. Egosoft has been asked since release to rebalance ships to make them more distinct from each other, and now we are at last getting some of that. Naturally this means they will no longer be totally interchangeable, and that some of them may not suit everyone's playstyle.

Easy...lowering the fighters capacity in a carrier is a stupid idea. It has nothing to do with rebalance and make ships "distinct"... YOU don't mind the change in carriers, because YOU don't use them...but I DO use them and I DO mind. Lowering the numbers of fighters in a carrier don't make it diferent as much as making it...no way I'm gone use this crap...that some ppl believe it to be a good idea, because....reasons.

[LameFox]

I didn't say I don't use carriers. I don't use Raptors. I have used other carriers, and I will probably use this one. I've also used lighter carriers in mods, so I doubt I will have much difficulty finding a use for it. If you personally only want heavier carriers that focus on capacity, I'm sure that some will continue to fill that role, most likely the Raptor and Tokyo in my estimation.

[j.harshaw]

Easy...lowering the fighters capacity in a carrier is a stupid idea.

This is why ship storage capacity for capital ships hasn't changed for so long. Anticipated that a number going down would elicit a knee-jerk reaction like exactly this. 40 S fighters was meant to be more than needed, with players expected to use whatever portion of that they decide to. Clamor came to make ships more distinct because of, and i really am quoting here although i understand it to be deliberately inflammatory language, "laziness" and "cut-and-paste stats."

Could increase it a bit, but the number would still go down so it would still qualify as what you characterize as a "stupid idea." It is not going above 40. So last recourse would be to increase it back to 40, and we're back to 40 capacity for all capital ships.

We did attempt to fill a niche here that hasn't been filled yet: a fast carrier with limited capacity that is able to rapidly get to a location, deploy fighters, deal with a threat, collect, and leave. Felt that this fit the Paranid particularly well with their tendency towards speed, range, and keeping distance. I'm glad to see that some people, at least, have recognized that usecase although I have still yet to hear about how effective it has proven in practice. Alternatively, we could have the same old carrier whose sole distinction is that it's paranid-flavored.

[xant]

Alternatively, we could have the same old carrier whose sole distinction is that it's paranid-flavored.

No, keep at it, each race should have a distinction.

I like the recent changes and would be quiet sad to see it undone.

[jlehtone]

No, keep at it, each race should have a distinction.

I like the recent changes and would be quiet sad to see it undone.

+1

[Caedes91]

Until the game can automatically rebuild lost fighters and assign them to the correct fleets, carriers are too much micromanagement.
Had three carriers, that lost some fighters. Going in each group, find which are missing, go to wharf, build, wait and reassign them is too much of a chore. Therefore I just use Asgards for everything now.
Xenon are neutered enough already by devs, fighting other factions is economically pointless. The split, the faction I actually want to eradicate, because it's morally the right choice, die off to the Xenon by themselves anyway.

Unless Carriers become bigger, possible because the limitations of gravity don't exist in space, the capacity should be reduced on ALL ships. Paranid should however have about 25 fighters, if the devs were going for a faster carrier.

[flywlyx]

The other carrier is still around.

But honestly, I still want a L-sized carrier, something small and sweet to fly around in and store my ships.
Otoh now that the Odysseus E looks a whole lot sexier I guess it'll do. It does have the M dock. What's it's capacity anyway?

For players, not for AI, I heard NPC will stop using them.

Yeah, L size fits its capacity better, and its rotation speed also needs some buff to fit its size.
Even mod it with exceptional mod, its 4/3/3 rotation speed is still bad.

Can you give me an example of the composition of that...rapid response fleet? I would like to build it in my game so I can watch it go splat I mean...testing it

Edit: And to be fair, I would not test that fleet to see if it can depopulate the most heavily defended xenon sector in my game in under 20 minutes, more like this scenario: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aOSXAhjB8pA&t=16s

Apparently, rapid response is not sector annihilation fleet.
A rapid response fleet could defend a Xenon's invasion with the minimum loss. When the raptor arrives, the work has been done.

And the carrier is the least efficient tool versus a Xenon battleship, it takes you 8 mins and 2 fighters to finish 3 Xenon capital ships while an Asgard could easily finish them in 5 mins without any scratch on the paint.
And an Asgard is only half the price of your fleet.

There are different roles in an army.

[Raptor34]

We did attempt to fill a niche here that hasn't been filled yet: a fast carrier with limited capacity that is able to rapidly get to a location, deploy fighters, deal with a threat, collect, and leave. Felt that this fit the Paranid particularly well with their tendency towards speed, range, and keeping distance. I'm glad to see that some people, at least, have recognized that usecase although I have still yet to hear about how effective it has proven in practice. Alternatively, we could have the same old carrier whose sole distinction is that it's paranid-flavored.

Well, more AI fleets with carriers would be a good start. As is they are way too rare.
With that said, if I was looking at the size I wouldn't get that at all. It really should be smaller tbh.
Although I don't have a comparison against all carriers, so maybe it already is smaller. Not talking about those DLC supercarriers btw, just the vanilla ones.

Until the game can automatically rebuild lost fighters and assign them to the correct fleets, carriers are too much micromanagement.

Second this. Which is why I started putting prefixes on all my ships when in the build menu at the wharf.
That and keeping their numbers to multiples of 10 so I can take a quick glance and tell which are missing fighters.
Which is partly why I'll be keeping the old ones in my fleets, enough fighters means you'll rarely if ever lose them. That and my actual gate defense fleets are ones I don't look at anyway, and if I want eye candy I'm going to my TER fleets.
Well, tbh unlike others I've never really cared for Paranid capitals even in X3 anyway, though the new Oddy looks pretty sexy from screenshots.

The other carrier is still around.

But honestly, I still want a L-sized carrier, something small and sweet to fly around in and store my ships.
Otoh now that the Odysseus E looks a whole lot sexier I guess it'll do. It does have the M dock. What's it's capacity anyway?

For players, not for AI, I heard NPC will stop using them.

Yeah, L size fits its capacity better, and its rotation speed also needs some buff to fit its size.
Even mod it with exceptional mod, its 4/3/3 rotation speed is still bad.

Well, it doesn't matter because afaict AI doesn't use carriers the same way players use them, don't they keep most of their fighters in space anyway? That and I don't think I commonly see more than 24 fighters in a fleet, which what do you know, is the capacity of the new carrier so it really only affects players.
Capacity is one thing, but size for flying around is another. And agility I guess, the bigger the ship, the odder it looks if it's agile. Which is why I'm surprised if it's that fast. That's even faster than a Rattlesnake. But well, it makes sense in space, what I liked back in X2 is that the big capital ships with the big engines are generally some of the fastest things around but with shit acceleration and agility.
Imo all the big ships should get their speed buffed.