Crystal mining is bugged

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terodil
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Re: Crystal mining is bugged

Post by terodil » Wed, 9. Jun 21, 22:22

I think you simultaneously underestimate new users in their capacity to evaluate advice received and overestimate them in their desire to play inefficiently.

If a player comes to a social channel and asks 'what is the best way to make money fast' (as a felt 90% of them do), then they're looking for the path of least resistance and will walk it. After all, their singular goal is to make money, not to have fun, or to experience an engaging adventure, or anything else -- they mostly believe that they can have fun after a period of efficient grinding. Your argument that they should experience the game in a 'better' way will simply fall on deaf ears. It will not make a difference to them.

Also, I share other posters' surprise at your conviction to know which way is the 'better way'. Just for the record, I personally liked crystal mining. I also liked fishing in WoW -- it had almost a zen-like quality to it, a quiet, pretty, routine activity I could lose myself in to take my mind off things and still make some money.
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Slashman
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Re: Crystal mining is bugged

Post by Slashman » Thu, 10. Jun 21, 01:26

terodil wrote:
Wed, 9. Jun 21, 22:22
I think you simultaneously underestimate new users in their capacity to evaluate advice received and overestimate them in their desire to play inefficiently.

If a player comes to a social channel and asks 'what is the best way to make money fast' (as a felt 90% of them do), then they're looking for the path of least resistance and will walk it. After all, their singular goal is to make money, not to have fun, or to experience an engaging adventure, or anything else -- they mostly believe that they can have fun after a period of efficient grinding. Your argument that they should experience the game in a 'better' way will simply fall on deaf ears. It will not make a difference to them.

Also, I share other posters' surprise at your conviction to know which way is the 'better way'. Just for the record, I personally liked crystal mining. I also liked fishing in WoW -- it had almost a zen-like quality to it, a quiet, pretty, routine activity I could lose myself in to take my mind off things and still make some money.
For me personally, I'm not professing to know what is the better way to play. I do know that the developers of the game have made their point of showing that this way (crystal mining) is not their intended way for players to make money. And as far as I can tell you can still use it to zen out if you want to, it just won't be very profitable. You can still sit and mine all day if you want to...you just won't get the kind of return on it that you used to.

So those players that you say come into social channels to ask how to "make money fast", will now have to choose from one of several other options or a combination of options that get them money as fast as possible. I'm not sure what the problem is at this point.
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terodil
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Re: Crystal mining is bugged

Post by terodil » Thu, 10. Jun 21, 09:11

Slashman wrote:
Thu, 10. Jun 21, 01:26
So those players that you say come into social channels to ask how to "make money fast", will now have to choose from one of several other options or a combination of options that get them money as fast as possible. I'm not sure what the problem is at this point.
I don't really have a lot of beef in this discussion as I'm using mods anyway, and one of the mods would certainly reverse this nerf. I find it overly immersion-breaking to experience that short dopamine rush at seeing a high-value crystal blinking on an asteroid, only to collect it and suddenly have it turn another colour. It's dumb.

The issue, as far as I see it, is that this nerf doesn't work. For something to 'work', you need to have a goal that can be reached, and this thread has been full of conjecture on what that goal may have been. Mostly, people have argued that it was so new players could have a first-contact experience that these people consider 'better' (e.g. capturing) than another (crystal mining). The essence of this argument is certainly a credit to the posters' altruistic mindset, and I applaud them for not simply begrudging other players making tons of money in their single player games by what some might consider 'cheap' ways, but I just showed why I think that the nerf didn't reach this goal. I also have difficulty understading how it would reach any other goal. Therefore, I believe it to be a heavyhanded if not bad change, because while I feel the negative consequences (immersion breaking, frustration inducing), I am not convinced there even are any positive effects.
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Re: Crystal mining is bugged

Post by Slashman » Thu, 10. Jun 21, 15:31

terodil wrote:
Thu, 10. Jun 21, 09:11

I don't really have a lot of beef in this discussion as I'm using mods anyway, and one of the mods would certainly reverse this nerf. I find it overly immersion-breaking to experience that short dopamine rush at seeing a high-value crystal blinking on an asteroid, only to collect it and suddenly have it turn another colour. It's dumb.
I believe that the point is not to have you flying around an asteroid filed looking for blinking crystals. I only ever did this when I had missions that required components from those crystals specifically. And now I don't do it anymore. I have other things to do in-game.
The issue, as far as I see it, is that this nerf doesn't work. For something to 'work', you need to have a goal that can be reached,
I'm not sure where you got that line of logic from. It really doesn't make sense if you think about it. Does having a police force achieve some definalbe goal apart from keeping law and order and reducing/preventing crime? Would you say that because there is no numerical goal that you can say you have achieved with that, that it doesn't work? Does stopping a certain amount of crime have to be achieved or it is a total failure?
Therefore, I believe it to be a heavyhanded if not bad change, because while I feel the negative consequences (immersion breaking, frustration inducing), I am not convinced there even are any positive effects.
If you are using mods to get around this change, why does it even matter to you? The people who are interested in reversing this and are not averse to using mods will have their old crystal mining back. The people who don't use mods or are not willing to have a modified tag in their game will work within the confines of the changed system. So really I see it as a win-win.
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Eyeklops
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Re: Crystal mining is bugged

Post by Eyeklops » Thu, 10. Jun 21, 16:35

As a new player to X4 I want to chime in here. My pre-start research led to "go mine crystals for early money". I got lucky because the very first crystals I found netted me 500k+. Enough to stop crystal mining and do other things.

A few days later I started a new savegame but had no luck with crystal mining. After 30 minutes of finding mostly low end crystals I got bored and moved onto scanning stations for missions. Station missions were so much more engaging and fun that I left the monotony of crystal hunting behind and never looked back. In hindsight I'm glad the game guided me in another direction. I don't hunt for crystals anymore. If I happen to be in an asteroid field and they are blinking in my face I'll gather them from mere curiosity and to partake in the game loop but not for the money.

That said, I understand where the game veterans are coming from. The crystal hunting process is streamlined into how many of them make quick cash when starting a new savegame. This nerf forces them to replace the "trusty" and reliable crystals with something else and change can be hard for some people. Also the ability for high value crystals to convert to low value crystals once spawned creates a discontinuity in the game world and can reduce immersion. They should just despawn instead (providing you're not looking at them).

I think the developers had the right idea but maybe there is a middle ground needed in how many high value crystals can be collected before they convert (or despawn) to the low end variants. Maybe this will be a non-issue if the coming "custom game starts" allows some amount of credits to be transferred into new savegames. However, I do think it would be an overall detriment to the game for new players to spend the first hours mining crystals instead of being guided toward the games more engaging activities.

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Re: Crystal mining is bugged

Post by Nanook » Thu, 10. Jun 21, 16:52

Slashman wrote:
Thu, 10. Jun 21, 15:31
terodil wrote:
Thu, 10. Jun 21, 09:11

I don't really have a lot of beef in this discussion as I'm using mods anyway, and one of the mods would certainly reverse this nerf. I find it overly immersion-breaking to experience that short dopamine rush at seeing a high-value crystal blinking on an asteroid, only to collect it and suddenly have it turn another colour. It's dumb.
I believe that the point is not to have you flying around an asteroid filed looking for blinking crystals. ...
And I believe the point is for players to enjoy playing the game however they wish. If they enjoy "flying around an asteroid filed [sic] looking for blinking crystals", why shouldn't they be rewarded for their activities the same as those who enjoy going around stealing other's ships? What should it matter to you, anyway? It's not multiplayer and is not a competition between players. It's a single player game!

I think that Egosoft's handling of this issue is just plain cheesy and a bit sadistic. It's like offering someone a fresh-baked cookie but then handing them a moldy biscuit instead. Sheesh!
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Re: Crystal mining is bugged

Post by Slashman » Thu, 10. Jun 21, 19:42

Nanook wrote:
Thu, 10. Jun 21, 16:52

And I believe the point is for players to enjoy playing the game however they wish. If they enjoy "flying around an asteroid filed [sic] looking for blinking crystals", why shouldn't they be rewarded for their activities the same as those who enjoy going around stealing other's ships? What should it matter to you, anyway? It's not multiplayer and is not a competition between players. It's a single player game!
I believe we all know its single player. And the reasoning for it is not up you and me but the developers. If they don't think that should be the activity of new players, who are YOU to tell them that it should be that way. It works both ways here.
I think that Egosoft's handling of this issue is just plain cheesy and a bit sadistic. It's like offering someone a fresh-baked cookie but then handing them a moldy biscuit instead. Sheesh!
That's a perectly valid opinion to have but the choice is up to the developers. And if you want to pursue your blinking lights you can mod the activity back into being profitable. Sheesh!
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Submarine
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Re: Crystal mining is bugged

Post by Submarine » Fri, 11. Jun 21, 00:40

Nanook wrote:
Thu, 10. Jun 21, 16:52

And I believe the point is for players to enjoy playing the game however they wish. If they enjoy "flying around an asteroid filed [sic] looking for blinking crystals", why shouldn't they be rewarded for their activities the same as those who enjoy going around stealing other's ships? What should it matter to you, anyway? It's not multiplayer and is not a competition between players. It's a single player game!

I think that Egosoft's handling of this issue is just plain cheesy and a bit sadistic. It's like offering someone a fresh-baked cookie but then handing them a moldy biscuit instead. Sheesh!
Yes that is pretty much how I see it.

There is a fine line between providing challenges which give gameplay meaning and messing people about in an annoying way and the new implementation of crystals sadly crosses that line but offends in more ways than that.

It is so badly implemented that theories it is deliberate and is having the intended effect appear to be post hoc justification from the awkward squad and are not credible.

To reiterate why, the implementation is clumsy in the way that discovered and rendered and seen-by-player crystals will change colour in reaction to player actions, including collecting drops from Xenon nearby, within LOS, showing that this modification was inexpertly done as it is short circuiting the code which elswhere tries to create narrative consistency for the player, so it breaks the fourth wall of the sim, disrupts the suspension of disbelief, detectably moves goal posts in an unbelievable way and trashes emergent mechanics.

Its not simply a question of aesthetic differences, this is not even viable game coding.
bloop

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Re: Crystal mining is bugged

Post by RodentofDoom » Fri, 11. Jun 21, 08:18

Slashman wrote:
Thu, 10. Jun 21, 19:42
And if you want to pursue your blinking lights you can mod the activity back into being profitable. Sheesh!
There are people that don't mod the game.




Because obviously it's the only "right" way to play the game ......

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Ehli
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Re: Crystal mining is bugged

Post by Ehli » Fri, 11. Jun 21, 10:34

RodentofDoom wrote:
Fri, 11. Jun 21, 08:18
Slashman wrote:
Thu, 10. Jun 21, 19:42
And if you want to pursue your blinking lights you can mod the activity back into being profitable. Sheesh!
There are people that don't mod the game.




Because obviously it's the only "right" way to play the game ......
This. Maybe I'm an old gamer, but for me "mod" means "cheat". I know that's not always true (no offense to the modders here), but there's a reason achievements and "multi-play" are disabled when having mods. That's why I really appreciated Ego embraced some mods in X3 (e.g. CAG), because this way I know the mods are within their balance/support/vision. I'll never go **modified**, ever. If a game needs mods to be fun, then simply don't play the game, IMO.

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Re: Crystal mining is bugged

Post by Submarine » Fri, 11. Jun 21, 13:02

Ehli wrote:
Fri, 11. Jun 21, 10:34
RodentofDoom wrote:
Fri, 11. Jun 21, 08:18
Slashman wrote:
Thu, 10. Jun 21, 19:42
And if you want to pursue your blinking lights you can mod the activity back into being profitable. Sheesh!
There are people that don't mod the game.




Because obviously it's the only "right" way to play the game ......
This. Maybe I'm an old gamer, but for me "mod" means "cheat". I know that's not always true (no offense to the modders here), but there's a reason achievements and "multi-play" are disabled when having mods. That's why I really appreciated Ego embraced some mods in X3 (e.g. CAG), because this way I know the mods are within their balance/support/vision. I'll never go **modified**, ever. If a game needs mods to be fun, then simply don't play the game, IMO.
Also if you are serious about helping with beta testing and bug catching then feedback from modded content is not very helpful for devs.
bloop

Slashman
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Re: Crystal mining is bugged

Post by Slashman » Fri, 11. Jun 21, 14:13

That's an interesting perspective to have when your whole argument is that you should be able to play the game the way you want to even if that means exploiting an obvious loophole in overly profitable crystal mining.

So doing that is very fine but having a moddified tag is horrible and means you have formed a pact with the devil. :roll:

Where is the whole "its a single player game and I should not be told how to play it" spiel.
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Re: Crystal mining is bugged

Post by Alan Phipps » Fri, 11. Jun 21, 14:29

"Where is the whole "its a single player game and I should not be told how to play it" spiel." Right above from Nanook. :D
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Re: Crystal mining is bugged

Post by Slashman » Fri, 11. Jun 21, 20:50

Alan Phipps wrote:
Fri, 11. Jun 21, 14:29
"Where is the whole "its a single player game and I should not be told how to play it" spiel." Right above from Nanook. :D
Yes and I acknowledged that that is a valid perspective...but Nanook did not say anything about mods...if I'm mistaken then please correct me.

I was talking about these other folks who won't use mods but still want to actively exploit a known imbalance in the game mechanics.

At the end of the day no one LIKES nerfs...but sometimes they are necessary to normalize gameplay. And that is ultimately up to the developers. I don't have numbers or statistics on how often this particular activity was being done, but I'm guessing that the developers did and noticed it was being done to the exclusion of other valid early game activities. They took steps to remedy that. I suspect that any step they took, which would have sufficiently stopped it being abused, would have equally negative repercussions from the players who were leaning on it for what it provided.
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Re: Crystal mining is bugged

Post by Submarine » Sat, 12. Jun 21, 00:02

Slashman wrote:
Fri, 11. Jun 21, 20:50


I was talking about these other folks who won't use mods but still want to actively exploit a known imbalance in the game mechanics.

At the end of the day no one LIKES nerfs...but sometimes they are necessary to normalize gameplay. And that is ultimately up to the developers. I don't have numbers or statistics on how often this particular activity was being done, but I'm guessing that the developers did and noticed it was being done to the exclusion of other valid early game activities. They took steps to remedy that. I suspect that any step they took, which would have sufficiently stopped it being abused, would have equally negative repercussions from the players who were leaning on it for what it provided.
Why are crystals seen as imbalanced? (How can they be in a single player game ?)

I played crystal mining in Split Vendetta for 200 hours and and ended with a few Ms, bare bones dockable PHQ and cash on hand Cr 36m, net worth maybe about Cr 100m.

I played "traditionally" in Cradle of Humanity as a fresh Terran start for 200 hours and ignored crystals, plot and stations completely and have over Cr300m cash on hand from salvage and trading Adv Sats plus a dozen capped assorted M raiders and three capped marauder DDs, couple of L freighters and nearly a dozen M freighters and miners not to mention nearly a dozen S scouts. I know a lot of people would have a lot more than that after 200hrs and its because I goof around and role play and please myself but even so that is more than 4 times what I got from crystals.

Crystal mining was not overpowered as far as I was aware, it was slim pickings. I dont understand this idea that crystals were some kind of supercheat.

Was there an exploit? I didnt use one. I think the idea that crystals were overpowered is completely bogus.

If there was an egregious exploit then OK fix the exploit, dont wreck the whole mechanic.
bloop

Fishille
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Re: Crystal mining is bugged

Post by Fishille » Sat, 12. Jun 21, 00:04

You know I actually appreciated the de-incentivizing Crystal hunting. I just started a new vanilla play through and avoided crystal farming, I’ve actually progressed faster and have had more fun this play start.

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Re: Crystal mining is bugged

Post by Slashman » Sat, 12. Jun 21, 01:49

Submarine wrote:
Sat, 12. Jun 21, 00:02
Slashman wrote:
Fri, 11. Jun 21, 20:50


I was talking about these other folks who won't use mods but still want to actively exploit a known imbalance in the game mechanics.

At the end of the day no one LIKES nerfs...but sometimes they are necessary to normalize gameplay. And that is ultimately up to the developers. I don't have numbers or statistics on how often this particular activity was being done, but I'm guessing that the developers did and noticed it was being done to the exclusion of other valid early game activities. They took steps to remedy that. I suspect that any step they took, which would have sufficiently stopped it being abused, would have equally negative repercussions from the players who were leaning on it for what it provided.
Why are crystals seen as imbalanced? (How can they be in a single player game ?)

I played crystal mining in Split Vendetta for 200 hours and and ended with a few Ms, bare bones dockable PHQ and cash on hand Cr 36m, net worth maybe about Cr 100m.

I played "traditionally" in Cradle of Humanity as a fresh Terran start for 200 hours and ignored crystals, plot and stations completely and have over Cr300m cash on hand from salvage and trading Adv Sats plus a dozen capped assorted M raiders and three capped marauder DDs, couple of L freighters and nearly a dozen M freighters and miners not to mention nearly a dozen S scouts. I know a lot of people would have a lot more than that after 200hrs and its because I goof around and role play and please myself but even so that is more than 4 times what I got from crystals.

Crystal mining was not overpowered as far as I was aware, it was slim pickings. I dont understand this idea that crystals were some kind of supercheat.

Was there an exploit? I didnt use one. I think the idea that crystals were overpowered is completely bogus.

If there was an egregious exploit then OK fix the exploit, dont wreck the whole mechanic.
My question is why you think that something CANNOT be imbalanced in a single player game? That whole premise doesn't make sense. If they made the Argon Centaur to have 100 times its normal hull and shields and to mount destroyer weapons and to be faster than the Split equivalent and it cost the same as it does right now would that be OK? I mean everybody would just use that one ship right? Would that be acceptable to you? Balance tweaks are made in single player games all the time. Its not some new concept that never was done before.

I doubt the developers would go to the trouble of changing a whole mechanic if there wasn't some indication that it wasn't working how they envisioned it should or was an exploit. Now if they decide that the change was a mistake and tweak it or change it back to something resembling the original version, I won't complain. It is their game to make as they see fit.
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Re: Crystal mining is bugged

Post by Submarine » Sat, 12. Jun 21, 08:46

Slashman wrote:
Sat, 12. Jun 21, 01:49
Submarine wrote:
Sat, 12. Jun 21, 00:02
Why are crystals seen as imbalanced? (How can they be in a single player game ?)

...

Crystal mining was not overpowered as far as I was aware, it was slim pickings. I dont understand this idea that crystals were some kind of supercheat.

Was there an exploit? I didnt use one. I think the idea that crystals were overpowered is completely bogus.

If there was an egregious exploit then OK fix the exploit, dont wreck the whole mechanic.
My question is why you think that something CANNOT be imbalanced in a single player game? That whole premise doesn't make sense. If they made the Argon Centaur to have 100 times its normal hull and shields and to mount destroyer weapons and to be faster than the Split equivalent and it cost the same as it does right now would that be OK? I mean everybody would just use that one ship right? Would that be acceptable to you? Balance tweaks are made in single player games all the time. Its not some new concept that never was done before.

I doubt the developers would go to the trouble of changing a whole mechanic if there wasn't some indication that it wasn't working how they envisioned it should or was an exploit. Now if they decide that the change was a mistake and tweak it or change it back to something resembling the original version, I won't complain. It is their game to make as they see fit.
The Centaur argument you describe is basically what the player HQ, teleportation and ship modifications do, the whole game has a set of big shiney player centered cheats in the middle of it creating an imbalance of power, built into the game as part of the fantasy megalomanic vanity gameplay SP allows. Its the players choice how to indulge themselves using the imbalances.

In that context the question of what is imbalanced resolves around whether a mechanic breaks the suspension of disbelief sufficiently to undermine the impulse to play created by the conditionality of the rest of the sim.

By this metric the crystals were previously no more imbalanced than the rest of the game. One thing which absolutely does break the sim is magic self nerfing crystals which change colour on the fly, before your eyes, apparently evincing insane crystal hate and self loathing sentiment from the devs.

Joking aside, since crystals were not imbalanced and the new implementation is sim breaking, it is best viewed as bugged, as per the title of the thread.

The bug apparently relates to the distribution calculation for spawning and it is short circuiting, becoming active in inappropriate circumstances causing detectable changes in the local environment. The balance of player outcomes would also seem to be broken as well.
bloop

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Re: Crystal mining is bugged

Post by Slashman » Sat, 12. Jun 21, 19:40

Submarine wrote:
Sat, 12. Jun 21, 08:46

The Centaur argument you describe is basically what the player HQ, teleportation and ship modifications do, the whole game has a set of big shiney player centered cheats in the middle of it creating an imbalance of power, built into the game as part of the fantasy megalomanic vanity gameplay SP allows. Its the players choice how to indulge themselves using the imbalances.
I must be missing some PHQ functions...you can fly that around and never bother with any other ship? And like...right from the beginning of the game? Ship modifications gives you 100 times the shield and hull value of the original ship?
Joking aside, since crystals were not imbalanced and the new implementation is sim breaking, it is best viewed as bugged, as per the title of the thread.

The bug apparently relates to the distribution calculation for spawning and it is short circuiting, becoming active in inappropriate circumstances causing detectable changes in the local environment. The balance of player outcomes would also seem to be broken as well.
So the devs have since said that crystals were not imbalanced? Can you point me to where that post is and maybe explain why they made a change like that in the first place if the post itself doesn't explain it of course?
If you want a different perspective, stand on your head.

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Re: Crystal mining is bugged

Post by spocksbrainrocks » Mon, 31. Jan 22, 08:52

Damn, I wish I had read this a few hours ago. I just wasted 3 hours out of my life
looking for crystals.

When was this nerfed? Cradle of Humanity?

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