Crystal mining is bugged

[Jeraal]

They might as well just remove crystal mining it's been nerfed so hard. I only do it now to get the occasional unstable crystal before I unlock a black market dealer that will sell them to me. I used to enjoy crystal mining. It was rather therapeutic as well as a bit of a money maker. Now, what's the point?

[RodentofDoom]

You could CHOOSE to waste your time doing something else, but it was a waste.

It certainly was wasteful to mine crystals, yes. You could/can EASILY make more money being a pirate and getting captains to bail and selling ships. A single minotaur raider can net almost 3 million depending on how it's geared out, 1 million minimum, for 3-5 minutes worth of flying around. And you can do that in your starting kestrel.... you can make dragon raider pirates bail while in a kestral. And a dragon raider sells for a good bit more...

You may believe the activity to be a waste of time but that does not invalidate someone elses enjoyment of it.
People play the X games for a variety of reasons.
Some enjoy the combat.
Some enjoy the trading.
Some enjoy complex planning & construction.
Some enjoy the exploration.

Finding crystals falls under the exploration category.
Now there is 1 reason less to explore.

But lets analyse your own sentiment.
Obviously earning credits from capping and selling ships is far too easy.
Time to nerf bailing rates and resale values for 'sustainability' ......

[grapedog]

You could CHOOSE to waste your time doing something else, but it was a waste.

It certainly was wasteful to mine crystals, yes. You could/can EASILY make more money being a pirate and getting captains to bail and selling ships. A single minotaur raider can net almost 3 million depending on how it's geared out, 1 million minimum, for 3-5 minutes worth of flying around. And you can do that in your starting kestrel.... you can make dragon raider pirates bail while in a kestral. And a dragon raider sells for a good bit more...

You may believe the activity to be a waste of time but that does not invalidate someone elses enjoyment of it.
People play the X games for a variety of reasons.
Some enjoy the combat.
Some enjoy the trading.
Some enjoy complex planning & construction.
Some enjoy the exploration.

Finding crystals falls under the exploration category.
Now there is 1 reason less to explore.

But lets analyse your own sentiment.
Obviously earning credits from capping and selling ships is far too easy.
Time to nerf bailing rates and resale values for 'sustainability' ......

Are people still going on about crystals...

[Submarine]

Are people still going on about crystals...

I object to this pointless and unsympathetic post about other peoples posts, if this kind of post is permitted then it is permissible to say that the quoted post adds nothing to the conversation and its only action is to aggravate and ridicule people who feel passionately about the changes to the crystal mining mechanic in X4 and one cannot escape the impression it is written precisely because the discussion is passionate and is therefore trolling.

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It seems to me the new crystal mechanics are either not as intended or not thought through as they destroy the mechanic and damage the integrity of the sim in the way crystal colour/value can change arbitrarily even within LOS. I really do hope egosoft have taken note of the impact of these changes and will revisit the design because this is disappointing me as a player.

[Jeraal]

Are people still going on about crystals...

I object to this pointless and unsympathetic post about other peoples posts, if this kind of post is permitted then it is permissible to say that the quoted post adds nothing to the conversation and its only action is to aggravate and ridicule people who feel passionately about the changes to the crystal mining mechanic in X4 and one cannot escape the impression it is written precisely because the discussion is passionate and is therefore trolling.

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It seems to me the new crystal mechanics are either not as intended or not thought through as they destroy the mechanic and damage the integrity of the sim in the way crystal colour/value can change arbitrarily even within LOS. I really do hope egosoft have taken note of the impact of these changes and will revisit the design because this is disappointing me as a player.

Well said.

[grapedog]

Are people still going on about crystals...

I object to this pointless and unsympathetic post about other peoples posts, if this kind of post is permitted then it is permissible to say that the quoted post adds nothing to the conversation and its only action is to aggravate and ridicule people who feel passionately about the changes to the crystal mining mechanic in X4 and one cannot escape the impression it is written precisely because the discussion is passionate and is therefore trolling.

---

It seems to me the new crystal mechanics are either not as intended or not thought through as they destroy the mechanic and damage the integrity of the sim in the way crystal colour/value can change arbitrarily even within LOS. I really do hope egosoft have taken note of the impact of these changes and will revisit the design because this is disappointing me as a player.

I think crystals in their current state are healthier for the game. So i too hope Ego takes note of player feelings...

[Jeraal]

I feel they have been nerfed so much, that they might as well remove them. I liked doing it before, but now it feels like there is no point.

[RodentofDoom]

Are people still going on about crystals...

Yes they are.
Not for the asinine reason you appear to claim they do.
But because it was the wrong change, even if it was for the right reason.

[jlehtone]

I feel they have been nerfed so much, that they might as well remove them. I liked doing it before, but now it feels like there is no point.

To me the crystals were always pointless. I've never hunted them for money. Removal of "useless" features would be bad.

[grapedog]

I feel they have been nerfed so much, that they might as well remove them. I liked doing it before, but now it feels like there is no point.

To me the crystals were always pointless. I've never hunted them for money. Removal of "useless" features would be bad.

They're needed for a quest, so there is a reason to keep them in the game.

[Submarine]

Are people still going on about crystals...

Yes they are.
Not for the asinine reason you appear to claim they do.
But because it was the wrong change, even if it was for the right reason.

Yes, quite agree, the method is wrong even if one accepts the designers want a particular balance this is not the right way to achieve it because of the way it breaks the self consistency of the sim.

It seems like a waste of effort to introduce crystals and then because they are popular, wreck the mechanic like this. Its not just a waste its perverse. If they are going to do crystals they should do them properly and accept they are going to be a career for some people some of the time, so make it fun instead of treating it like a red-headed stepchild.

[Submarine]

Are people still going on about crystals...

I object to this pointless and unsympathetic post about other peoples posts, if this kind of post is permitted then it is permissible to say that the quoted post adds nothing to the conversation and its only action is to aggravate and ridicule people who feel passionately about the changes to the crystal mining mechanic in X4 and one cannot escape the impression it is written precisely because the discussion is passionate and is therefore trolling.

---

It seems to me the new crystal mechanics are either not as intended or not thought through as they destroy the mechanic and damage the integrity of the sim in the way crystal colour/value can change arbitrarily even within LOS. I really do hope egosoft have taken note of the impact of these changes and will revisit the design because this is disappointing me as a player.

Well said.

Likewise I am sure

[Alan Phipps]

OK, can we now get back onto the topic of in-game crystal hunting and refrain from comments on posts and posters. Thanks.

[Slashman]

I don't think crystal mining was ever meant to be a career for anyone. It was just an activity...that it became the de facto way for many to get early game income was a problem that needed to be fixed. Everyone saying they went about it in the wrong way...what would be the right way to stop it being a money sponge? A nerf had to take place...

The fact is that it is the developer's game...they can say definitively what should and shouldn't be a way that players can make a lot of money. If you are arguing that regular mining is too profitable, that also had a nerf. I think that players participating in the in-game economy is the way you are meant to play. You can do that in a number of ways...whether it be by missions, mining, building, fighting, trading...all of those (to a lesser or greater degree) have a direct effect on the game state of the universe. And I think that is the objective. Crystal mining has no real effect on the universe and as such I believe that it is now in the right place as an activity...you can pursue it if you want to but it is not going to be as big a money earner as other activities.

[grapedog]

I don't think crystal mining was ever meant to be a career for anyone. It was just an activity...that it became the de facto way for many to get early game income was a problem that needed to be fixed. Everyone saying they went about it in the wrong way...what would be the right way to stop it being a money sponge? A nerf had to take place...

The fact is that it is the developer's game...they can say definitively what should and shouldn't be a way that players can make a lot of money. If you are arguing that regular mining is too profitable, that also had a nerf. I think that players participating in the in-game economy is the way you are meant to play. You can do that in a number of ways...whether it be by missions, mining, building, fighting, trading...all of those (to a lesser or greater degree) have a direct effect on the game state of the universe. And I think that is the objective. Crystal mining has no real effect on the universe and as such I believe that it is now in the right place as an activity...you can pursue it if you want to but it is not going to be as big a money earner as other activities.

I would argue it had a negative impact, as many new players were told to go scrape rocks for hours to get their early credits... i can't think of a worse way to introduce new players to the X series, than having fly aimlessly around an asteroid patch for hours, looking for flashing lights.

What an abysmal way for a new player to get into the game... no no, don't trade, build, fight, or think... go shoot blinking lights on rocks for a few hours. Trash idea...

Thankfully, i don't see that junk recommended to new players anymore... they're actually told of enjoyable ways to earn credits.

[terodil]

I think you simultaneously underestimate new users in their capacity to evaluate advice received and overestimate them in their desire to play inefficiently.

If a player comes to a social channel and asks 'what is the best way to make money fast' (as a felt 90% of them do), then they're looking for the path of least resistance and will walk it. After all, their singular goal is to make money, not to have fun, or to experience an engaging adventure, or anything else -- they mostly believe that they can have fun after a period of efficient grinding. Your argument that they should experience the game in a 'better' way will simply fall on deaf ears. It will not make a difference to them.

Also, I share other posters' surprise at your conviction to know which way is the 'better way'. Just for the record, I personally liked crystal mining. I also liked fishing in WoW -- it had almost a zen-like quality to it, a quiet, pretty, routine activity I could lose myself in to take my mind off things and still make some money.

[Slashman]

I think you simultaneously underestimate new users in their capacity to evaluate advice received and overestimate them in their desire to play inefficiently.

If a player comes to a social channel and asks 'what is the best way to make money fast' (as a felt 90% of them do), then they're looking for the path of least resistance and will walk it. After all, their singular goal is to make money, not to have fun, or to experience an engaging adventure, or anything else -- they mostly believe that they can have fun after a period of efficient grinding. Your argument that they should experience the game in a 'better' way will simply fall on deaf ears. It will not make a difference to them.

Also, I share other posters' surprise at your conviction to know which way is the 'better way'. Just for the record, I personally liked crystal mining. I also liked fishing in WoW -- it had almost a zen-like quality to it, a quiet, pretty, routine activity I could lose myself in to take my mind off things and still make some money.

For me personally, I'm not professing to know what is the better way to play. I do know that the developers of the game have made their point of showing that this way (crystal mining) is not their intended way for players to make money. And as far as I can tell you can still use it to zen out if you want to, it just won't be very profitable. You can still sit and mine all day if you want to...you just won't get the kind of return on it that you used to.

So those players that you say come into social channels to ask how to "make money fast", will now have to choose from one of several other options or a combination of options that get them money as fast as possible. I'm not sure what the problem is at this point.

[terodil]

So those players that you say come into social channels to ask how to "make money fast", will now have to choose from one of several other options or a combination of options that get them money as fast as possible. I'm not sure what the problem is at this point.

I don't really have a lot of beef in this discussion as I'm using mods anyway, and one of the mods would certainly reverse this nerf. I find it overly immersion-breaking to experience that short dopamine rush at seeing a high-value crystal blinking on an asteroid, only to collect it and suddenly have it turn another colour. It's dumb.

The issue, as far as I see it, is that this nerf doesn't work. For something to 'work', you need to have a goal that can be reached, and this thread has been full of conjecture on what that goal may have been. Mostly, people have argued that it was so new players could have a first-contact experience that these people consider 'better' (e.g. capturing) than another (crystal mining). The essence of this argument is certainly a credit to the posters' altruistic mindset, and I applaud them for not simply begrudging other players making tons of money in their single player games by what some might consider 'cheap' ways, but I just showed why I think that the nerf didn't reach this goal. I also have difficulty understading how it would reach any other goal. Therefore, I believe it to be a heavyhanded if not bad change, because while I feel the negative consequences (immersion breaking, frustration inducing), I am not convinced there even are any positive effects.

[Slashman]

I don't really have a lot of beef in this discussion as I'm using mods anyway, and one of the mods would certainly reverse this nerf. I find it overly immersion-breaking to experience that short dopamine rush at seeing a high-value crystal blinking on an asteroid, only to collect it and suddenly have it turn another colour. It's dumb.

I believe that the point is not to have you flying around an asteroid filed looking for blinking crystals. I only ever did this when I had missions that required components from those crystals specifically. And now I don't do it anymore. I have other things to do in-game.

The issue, as far as I see it, is that this nerf doesn't work. For something to 'work', you need to have a goal that can be reached,

I'm not sure where you got that line of logic from. It really doesn't make sense if you think about it. Does having a police force achieve some definalbe goal apart from keeping law and order and reducing/preventing crime? Would you say that because there is no numerical goal that you can say you have achieved with that, that it doesn't work? Does stopping a certain amount of crime have to be achieved or it is a total failure?

Therefore, I believe it to be a heavyhanded if not bad change, because while I feel the negative consequences (immersion breaking, frustration inducing), I am not convinced there even are any positive effects.

If you are using mods to get around this change, why does it even matter to you? The people who are interested in reversing this and are not averse to using mods will have their old crystal mining back. The people who don't use mods or are not willing to have a modified tag in their game will work within the confines of the changed system. So really I see it as a win-win.

[Eyeklops]

As a new player to X4 I want to chime in here. My pre-start research led to "go mine crystals for early money". I got lucky because the very first crystals I found netted me 500k+. Enough to stop crystal mining and do other things.

A few days later I started a new savegame but had no luck with crystal mining. After 30 minutes of finding mostly low end crystals I got bored and moved onto scanning stations for missions. Station missions were so much more engaging and fun that I left the monotony of crystal hunting behind and never looked back. In hindsight I'm glad the game guided me in another direction. I don't hunt for crystals anymore. If I happen to be in an asteroid field and they are blinking in my face I'll gather them from mere curiosity and to partake in the game loop but not for the money.

That said, I understand where the game veterans are coming from. The crystal hunting process is streamlined into how many of them make quick cash when starting a new savegame. This nerf forces them to replace the "trusty" and reliable crystals with something else and change can be hard for some people. Also the ability for high value crystals to convert to low value crystals once spawned creates a discontinuity in the game world and can reduce immersion. They should just despawn instead (providing you're not looking at them).

I think the developers had the right idea but maybe there is a middle ground needed in how many high value crystals can be collected before they convert (or despawn) to the low end variants. Maybe this will be a non-issue if the coming "custom game starts" allows some amount of credits to be transferred into new savegames. However, I do think it would be an overall detriment to the game for new players to spend the first hours mining crystals instead of being guided toward the games more engaging activities.